Marilyn Little's horse bleeds yet again. Red rag to a groom.

Very well said. :slight_smile:

Maybe there should be a rule suggestion to prevent grooms from wiping the mouth or any other part of the horse after the round until after the welfare inspection. Apparently the inspector saw the groom with the rag, said ā€œdon’t do thatā€ and the groom did it anyway. Ergo, no blood to inspect, and apparently no bleeding spot was found.

If a rule isn’t already in place that no wiping of any part of the horse’s body can be done before the inspection, add it. And, to make sure grooms don’t wipe anyway, add a couple of penalty points to the rider’s score if the horse is wiped before they are inspected after the round. Of course the inspection needs to be prompt so horse care can commence.

The penalty points would be a bit harsh, but they would add some enforcement and accountability.

It is always interesting when just one competitor is the source of a rule change or policy change. But it seems as if things may be headed that way if the public isn’t satisfied that the same competitor does continue to have blood on the horse’s mouth.

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Anyone have any contact at Land Rover? They are a new title sponsor and I doubt they want to be associated with something like this. Everyone should be talking about the winner, instead the biggest news is the bloody mouth of one of the podium finisher’s horses. Not a good look and something you want to be associated with… perhaps the threat of losing a large title sponsor AGAIN would actually give them the kick in the ass they need to do something.

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Good point. You have to know the ones that don’t pass, their team knows they aren’t sound but the still try to get in anyway?

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ETA picture didn’t come with the quote. See post # 170.

Have ridden in something similar, the wide, flat mouthpiece with low port. It was called a Polo mouth. BUT it was vertical with the shanks, not 90 degrees to them like this thing in the picture. . That particular bit I used had an adjustment where you could swivel and lock the mouthpiece in varying degrees to the shanks but think 45 was the most it would go. Not that we used it at 45 degrees, some horses carried it very well and were happy in it. Vertically or slightly laid back, maybe 10-15 degrees.

Never think Ive seen it all all but am a bit disturbed by this wide, flat mouthpiece completely horizontal to the straight shank going into a horses mouth. Really? I’m no big fat snaffle devotee but this ? Any horse would be trying to get it’s mouth open. But we don’t know if this is the type bit ML uses, only that it’s a very similar shank. Horse thats a tough enough SOB needing that to get around probably needs another job.

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I think I understand the chronology as it relates to the XC blood incident at this year’s Kentucky. A genuine question: is there any reason what the FEI officials could not have requested that the mare’s bridle be removed as soon as practical and safe following her run for examination by an FEI vet? This would have seemed the most prudent course for all involved. Then they (and Marilyn) could have said, ā€œYes, there was a superficial cut to the lip prior to the run, but we have examined her lips and mouth following the ride as well and our vet(s) can confirm that there is no other source of blood other than the one previously noted. For this reason, there will be no disqualification.ā€

As I understand it, there was no post-run check? Given the situation, why wouldn’t the FEI want one in order to remove any claim of negligence from their heads? If I were the FEI, I would have been fairly running to check her after the final fence.

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They dont look because they don’t want to know and they don’t want to know because they don’t care and they don’t care because no one is making them care.

Whats the Canadian journalist who helped break open the endurance scandal doing these days?

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Maybe we need to go back to the long format? Or would that just mean more people ignoring it?

I hate to be cynical… but it does seem possible

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I wish but never gunna happen sadly

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I hate to say it but I thought exactly the same thing.

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I’ve never seen a bit like that used with a flash. Is that usual? It looks like there is a curb chain as well.

Are you talking about EquiOtic? And what FB post? Sorry if I am a little late to this.

I don’t know how to delete this because I found the post and answered my own first question. Now I have to find a new gut supplement for my horse. I used to use Perfect Products but dropped them a while ago, so glad I did. :frowning:

MY God, who checks a horse like that? That mare was not out of control. in fact, she looks so rideable.
Her mouth must be one scar tissue with those bits she had been seen using. Sad. Really. That is not horsemanship! Does she ride her jumpers in that kind of hardware?

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Interestingly, I looked back through the gallery and the position of the horse’s head and neck/whether they’re working or relaxed seemed to have a big impact on how tight the flash appears.

Look at the back-to-back photos of Covert Rights in this gallery (same one the Donner pic is from): http://eventingnation.com/photo-gallery-memorable-moments-from-lrk3de-dressage-day-2/

First photo, that flash looks tight as hell. Second one where he’s done his test and is just chillin’ you can see a shadow from a gap in the flash, showing that it wasn’t cranked tight.

I haven’t gone digging for photos of Kitty to see if that was the case for her too, just something I noticed when looking through that gallery.

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I’m not an Event rider, but have had a few of my clients and horses compete at the lowest of the levels in Eventing. I can not believe, with all the bad publicity that the Eventing community has endured over the last few years, that even Jesus Christ himself would be allowed to ride a horse XC with a bloody mouth. I truly can not wrap my head around this. I had never heard of ML until the last few years when the bloody mouth controversy started. I was outraged when I saw her mare, yet again, was competing while actively bleeding. I asked ā€œwhy is this going to stopā€ on my FB page. I had a USEF judge jump all over me for going on a witch hunt. This is not a witch hunt. This woman has competed on multiple horses that were actively bleeding and not one time withdrawn them. How is questioning why this is happening ā€œa pile onā€? I don’t understand how any horse owner, trainer, or professional could explain numerous horses bleeding from the mouth after XC with one single rider as anything other than abuse. Even if the rider isn’t causing the bleeding directly, why isn’t this person being hung out to dry for continuing to compete a horse that is injured? You don’t get blood without an injury. Period. This is horsemanship at its worst. Not only is this woman giving Eventing a black eye, she is giving equestrian sports as a whole a black eye. A horse should not compete in ANY event (Hunters/Dressage/Barrel Racing/etc) if it is actively bleeding. Why would ANYONE think that is ok? Obviously the officials at this event didn’t see a problem with it or she would have been pulled up on course. Who do they report to? All of you who hate PETA but support Eventing - this woman just gave them a huge amount of ammunition to have regulations put on equestrian sports. If we do not police ourselves, someone else is going to start doing it for us. I don’t think any of us want that to happen. Hopefully this will spark regulations to go into place that no horse, for any reason, will be allowed to compete if any active bleeding is present. A horse bangs its leg XC and has some blood…that horse gets pulled. A horse bits its lip and has some blood, it gets pulled. A horse has thin skin and gets some rub marks from a spur and has a touch of blood, it gets pulled. This seems like such a straightforward answer, but it certainly would go a long way to help both public perception AND owners/trainers/riders to do the right thing in regards to the animals in their care.

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Funny I had just noticed the same thing. Pictures are but a snapshot in time.

Lots of great discussion here.

I was at the 2010 WEG when dressage rider Adelinde Cornelissen was disqualified about a minute into her lovely test because there was some blood in her horse’s saliva. At the time, I felt that a DQ was overkill for a freak, minor incident, where a vet could have quickly and easily examined the horse and determined whether or not the horse was fit to continue. It seemed a shame to me that they couldn’t inspect the horse and let it continue if it was truly a minor thing. IIRC, Ms. Cornelissen handled the situation gracefully, and I’m not aware that she had any history of behavior or training methods that might have been foreseen to cause the injury (or any history of her horse having a bloody mouth prior to that instance).

Now, speaking from my own experience, in decades of riding and competing on a wide variety of horses in a wide variety of bits I have only ONCE had a horse with a bloody mouth, due to an obvious pinch from a loose ring bit. Plus minus one other time where a cribber got a small cut on the gums from trying to crib on something inappropriate while being tacked up. In decades of competing, the only instance I can recall of seeing blood in the mouth or it being an issue was Ms. Cornelissen. (Oh, and a Saddlebred show where I saw two bloody mouths that no one else seemed to pay attention to.) Probably there have been a few cases that I’ve missed, but even so, I feel strongly that a bloody mouth is not just something normal that can be expected to happen. I have previously considered it in the category of ā€œfreak thingsā€ or due to the use of ridiculous bitting or abusive hands.

So now, I feel taken aback by a rider who has had multiple episodes of horses with bloody mouths. I’m not ā€œin the knowā€ in the eventing world, so my first reaction was along the lines of wondering if her lovely horse has some kind of an oral habit that makes it prone to biting itself. But of course, in this scenario, the rider has had the same problem with multiple horses. The bits themselves do seem to be on the more severe side, especially for XC, where riders often use a lot of contact. But, I think that how a bit is used is often more important than what bit is used. I’ve seen severe bits used with tact with no ill effects, and plenty of cringe-worthy use of snaffles. The overly tight flash noseband could be playing a part here by pressing the cheeks of the horse against the teeth when the horse tries to open its mouth. Do we need rules about how tight a noseband can be? Not sure that would solve the problem.

Going back to Adelinde, I don’t think that we need to automatically DQ horses with minor cuts and scrapes, oral or otherwise–at least I didn’t think we did. But I’m definitely not comfortable with what is happening here, in particular the repetitive nature of the issue. Aside from the obvious horse welfare concerns, how we as a sport horse community present ourselves to the public is incredibly important. I think that a one time incident CAN reasonably be discussed and explained as a freak incident that is not a welfare concern. But now we’ve got a string of incidents and this is concerning. Also, the person in question is having a lot of success–how can we make sure other riders do not emulate these methods?

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From that same link there is a picture of Kitty on a loose rein, after the test. I think it was pic 2 in the gallery. Looks tight to me. Couldn’t upload a pic from my phone.

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Interesting thing of note:

I just watched the on-demand version of ML’s XC run. Whether it was just editing choices or intentional, it does not show any of the footage where the blood was visible.

Also managed to find this FEI directory page: https://inside.fei.org/myfeidirectory

I encourage you to email any and all executives, committee and board members, really anyone you think might care. It’s all there (if your email does not open directly from your web browser, you can right click and select ā€œcopy email addressā€ to be able to paste it into an email).

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