If there could be a rule about blood in/around the mouth that would be most ideal. Brush causing a scrape, that could still be up to the discretion of the GJ. I think at any point if there is blood coming from nose or mouth, it should be an automatic DQ.
You can word the rule to only be for the mouth, this way a nick from a branch won’t get you DQ’d.
So maybe someone with experience enlighten me. I do not mean to sound like a bleeding heart, but why does she always have some crazy bit set up?
https://www.facebook.com/enviroequine/?hc_location=ufi
Posted a statement that ML has been dropped as a sponsored rider.
Really? I think if my mouth was cut and bleeding and a piece of metal was in my mouth with a 150lb person pulling with all their might against that cut in my mouth that that would be more painful than a scrape on my stomach. And yet, I still support both being immediate disqualifications.
I do remember her using some pretty unconventional and harsh looking bitting arrangements when she did the jumpers (at least on Udonna). I don’t remember bleeding-- but then again at a jumper show I’m not sure who is looking/checking and you’re in the ring for a much shorter period of time-- I don’t know that a small amount of bleeding would progress to the point of being externally visible in the time a quick jumper round takes.
I don’t recall any “bleeding mouth” ordeals, but her reputation in the jumper-world also isn’t/wasn’t stellar…it’s sad that these occurrences do not come with surprise and it needs to stop. The excuses need to stop. A fluke incident is one thing, but the consistency in poor horsemanship is appalling. The horses deserve better. Thank you to the previous poster suggesting we contact all her sponsors. I plan to do the same and will no longer be purchasing from any company affiliated with her.
Can you elaborate on her reputation in the jumper world? I’m not at all in that loop, and can’t find anything searching.
I would have to think that if one person needs these crazy bit set-ups on every horse, at what point do people stop thinking it’s the horses and maybe, just maybe it’s the rider. After all this time, jumpers or eventing, I honestly don’t think she’s as good as some people say. I have never seen a rider consistently have to use such crazy setups for every.single.horse.
I’m not sure but she was riding a white jumper and EVERYTHING shows up on a white horse. I had a white mare once and we used to give her peppermints and those red wafer type treats before going in the ring (she loved them). One day my trainer came over and told us to stop feeding her those treats because when she drooled it looked like blood (we checked her mouth, it wasn’t blood, just dye). Trainer was right - she had splattered red dye and cookie remnants everywhere and it looked terrible. She got a bath, a drink of water, and I found some different treats for our ring bag. After that she got green mints and brown cookies lol. My point is that ML’s white jumper would have blood all over his neck, face, legs, chest, and she would probably have some on her white breaches. Not making excuses for her, I’m just wondering what can be so different about the way she rides and bits her horses between the disciplines.
This seems very logical and in the best interest of the horses. I have only been grooming at international competitions since 2011 so was not around for those times.
I LOVE THIS.
My best guess would be because of her SJ background, she prefers the ability to have the horse come back at a moments notice, and she prefers they jump very cleanly in packaged frame. This is not typical of eventers on cross country. They usually bring horses back over a number of strides and jump the big galloping fences out of an uphill gallop stride. They also don’t care about getting that super basculed, packaged jump on cross country. It is counter productive to making time. The horses should be going across the jump as efficiently as possible. The bit set ups she uses allow her to gallop on a loose rein and then yank the horse back in a stride or two for the jumps. It is also more in fashion in the SJ world to get creative with bitting set ups versus on cross country in eventing. I would also guess that they bleed because of the excessive force on a leverage bit with a very closed mouth causing the horse to bite its lip or cheek. This force wouldn’t be used by her in show jumping because the horses are more in hand in SJ and it would upset the horse’s balance too much and cause rails. That’s probably why those horses don’t bleed.
Obviously, this is all IMHO based on what I have seen in videos and of her at competition. I do not know her well and have not seen her compete in person more than a handful of times.
Forgive me if someone has already linked to this article about the Danish study demonstrating the link between tight nosebands and mouth lesions, and the subsequent rule change in 2018 for Danish equestrian competitions, but I’ve often wondered if part of the cause with Marilyn Little is her use of very tight nosebands, particularly when combined with a leverage bit. I also think allowing overly tight nosebands creates an unfair advantage compared with competitors who do allow 1-2 fingers clearance. Watching the dressage, I heard the commentators repeatedly talk about how certain competitors were being penalized for mouth or tongue activity by their horses, and Marilyn Little has been pretty successful making the decision to strap the flash and noseband tightly enough that the horse can’t possibly open its mouth. While a discretionary rule for eventing is appealing in certain ways and might help those who truly have a one time incident, it creates bad incentives if the officials never can consider prior violations and if the rider gains some benefit from it. We don’t have a one time exemption regarding prohibited substances, even when the violation is accidental, so why have a discretionary rule that is different for FEI eventing with respect to bleeding mouths?
Add me to the group of not understanding how it seems that only her horses have had multiple blood incidents and every other entry at Rolex finished XC without blood in its mouth. Horses like Luckaun Quality - who probably wears his full brldle to walk across the street - never has blood. Or Tight Lines who was fighting Will pretty much every step and had a pelham is fine. At the 2010 WEG a I saw a full bridle where the “snaffle” was a GAG!! No blood on him either.
And as for being eliminated for blood? A rider at Millbrook, a regular old Advanced event, was E’d several years ago when her horse sustained a cut on his side from sharp brush from a fence. The reason? Well, we cannot be 1001% sure it wasn’t her spur. Other than the wound was nowhere near where her spur could have been. But that rider took the E.
I was almost ready to believe that she was being a good horsewoman when she alerted stewards about the blood before she went on course. But it should never have been there, again.
Don’t know if I’m “qualified” to answer this, but, IMO, those bits are too much. I’ve ridden some hard pullers and some pretty keen to the jumps horses in my younger days and never would I have used a curb with a flash, or a double twisted wire gag. Incidentally I never had blood anywhere on a horse either. I think that harsh bitting can result in a tense/fearful horse that may grind/clack it’s teeth, perhaps resulting in a bite to the lip or cheek.
I hate to keep getting kind of into these tertiary conversations about bitting, because it makes it more difficult to have a focused specific approach to addressing the real problem, which is bleeding mouths in competition.
Other people use similar set ups, other people use a flash with a pelham or similar. They don’t cause bloody mouths. Let’s not go down the rabbit hole of further tack restrictions, because then someone ends up with a bloody mouth in a snaffle and we are right back here, only now we get the crazy bitless brigade after all of us.
we don’t need to debate tack choices, because that’s way way too subjective.
Blood in the mouth isn’t subjective.
@ladyj79 I am not trying to detract from what happens when she’s on course but I am wondering if she is riding WAY above her level. I do not know of any other rider that has ALL their horses going in creative set-ups and end up bleeding. That is all.
As catchme pointed out it might stem from show jumping. X-Country is not show jumping and should not be ridden as such. So maybe she should go back a few levels.
This is my take as well, and while the bitting might contribute, I do think this style would have a higher potential to produce blood in the mouth with any bitting set up. How hard would you slam your foot on the brake to stop a fatal accident? That’s what is happening here.
Best way to counter these events is dq for blood in mouth, this also included not letting a horse on course whose mouth is already bleeding.
The actual issue is horse welfare. ML aside, if anyone is able to hide blood in the mouth or anywhere else by wiping it off with a dark towel before the horse is checked by the stewards, then that is a problem. There are two possible solutions to this. Either, as mentioned before, 1) do not allow anyone to touch a horse before it is checked by officials, or 2) if grooms are allowed to wipe down a horse first, make towels light colored so they can also be inspected by officials to make sure no blood was wiped off before inspection. The first option would be the preferable one, since it is basically one step.
That is why I said a cut on the lip (bit doesn’t yank against that) is less bad than a spur rub is less bad than a cut in the bit area. I don’t really think a lip cut is a huge deal where the other 2 are more so because the rider could do more damage. I am not against disqualification for all but I think it is an overbroad rule if the goal is to eliminate abuse. In the past ML would have been eliminated for several of the incidents, but not this one. Perhaps it is necessary but I prefer a nuanced rule that gets fair results.
i think having the GJ inspect the horse before anyone touches it is a good idea if that can happen fast enough so the horse gets immediate care. I don’t know the staffing issues involved. There must be no additional delay getting the horses cool, etc.
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