Marilyn Little's horse bleeds yet again. Red rag to a groom.

[weixiao]

@ladyj79

the issue is why is a horse with a cut and bloody mouth showing that day? Let’s just say no bloody mouths. It doesn’t matter how it happens, it is a real rarity, so saying you know, you cant run with a cut and bleeding mouth and if your horse starts bleeding at the mouth on course, you’re done for the day shouldnt be a big deal. I keep saying this, because I don’t grasp how this idea is so extreme.

100% agreement.

Beyond sending emails to the FEI/USEF/USEA, is there any meaningful way to generate support for such a change?

I mean, I’ll work on becoming a princess and running the FEI myself, but that might take a while…

[ladyj79]

I think it would help a lot if we could get FEI event riders on board with a rule change regarding zero tolerance for blood in the mouth. It has NOTHING to do with ML and everything to do with horse welfare.

[TMares]

@CatchMeIfUCan

Can we stop with the towel thing? It’s completely ludicrous and takes away the validity of the rule changes requests. Wiping mouths is not a normal practice for grooms, and it is not a horse welfare issue. Blood in the mouth is, and there is plenty of proof that those are occurring even if she does wipe it away at the finish. Let’s not punish all the other grooms who work for riders whose horses never bleed. I am a freelance groom, and I mostly use black towels because they look nice, are super easy to clean, and are in most riders colors. Sometimes I use turquoise blue towels, but those are only for going to the ring because they look dirty quickly. White towels would be impossible to keep even remotely clean and are not at all practical around horses. I take pride in presenting my horses nicely and looking nice myself. I do not want a dirty white towel sticking out of my pocket, and the color of my towel does not at all effect horse welfare.

Let’s just stick to elimination when blood is found in the mouth and more strict checks on flash nosebands. Lots of people would get on board with that, and it would solve the problems. I highly suspect her issues are with using a leverage bit with a tight flash. The horse can’t get away from that leverage and fusses in the mouth. Funny that there was a thread here on COTH praising the use of two reins on a pelham and the rider was using a flash noseband with it…

I’m not ready to say quit on it, personally- since it’s an easy tool to use to mask or hide issues. We COULD talk about allowed colors for things- as in, don’t allow fleece in any color other than natural or white. Don’t allow dark towels or dark fleece.

Competitors are looking sharp in white breeches, white long sleeve shirts, white saddle pads…grooms can get by with light colored towels when handling horses at the END and the BEGINNING of a CC course. Who cares what you have at the barn or in other areas.

[lmlacross]

Okay, so let’s talk about enforcement of this yet-to-be-proposed rule change Blood in the mouth or ON the mouth nets disqualification? When is the mouth to be checked? At known intervals for all, or randomly/sporadically at the discretion of officials? Only following a report of visible blood?

At what point does mouth become lip become nose? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious what this rule would look like, in letter AND practice, to those who support it. To me, honestly, a bleeding loose ring pinch shouldn’t be a reason to roll a horse/rider from competition— should be a reason for some salve and a bit guard, but, given what some people seem to be arguing for (black and white, no discretion or interpretation because of past poor enforcement), it would seem to be.

[ladyj79]

@lmlacross

To me, honestly, a bleeding loose ring pinch shouldn’t be a reason to roll a horse/rider from competition— should be a reason for some salve and a bit guard, but, given what some people seem to be arguing for (black and white, no discretion or interpretation because of past poor enforcement), it would seem to be.

By that logic a spur rub isn’t cause for a dq but cause for use of a belly guard going forward. But it’s not. So use salve and a bit guard every ride. Fwiw, my rider uses salve every ride, and a bit guard with the appropriate bits. These are preventative measures: use them before there’s an issue.

[ladyj79]

I think some people over estimate the number of these kinds of incidents that occur. They really aren’t common among professionals or amateurs. If you have a lot of issues with these kinds of things happening to your horses, you really need to change something in your methods because it really isn’t hugely common to have cuts on the mouth from bits (or any equipment) if the equipment is in good repair, fitted and used appropriately.

[Denali6298]

@lmlacross

Okay, so let’s talk about enforcement of this yet-to-be-proposed rule change Blood in the mouth or ON the mouth nets disqualification? When is the mouth to be checked? At known intervals for all, or randomly/sporadically at the discretion of officials? Only following a report of visible blood?

At what point does mouth become lip become nose? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious what this rule would look like, in letter AND practice, to those who support it. To me, honestly, a bleeding loose ring pinch shouldn’t be a reason to roll a horse/rider from competition— should be a reason for some salve and a bit guard, but, given what some people seem to be arguing for (black and white, no discretion or interpretation because of past poor enforcement), it would seem to be.

I agree with you in principle only. Unfortunately rules tend to be created to cater to the lowest common denominator and the rest of us just have to deal. I am okay with a black and white blood rule. Clearly it is needed as we now have a rider with multiple horses bleeding from their mouths. It would be great if people did the right thing but they don’t. So yes, we need a no tolerance rule.

Now, this time it might have been from a pinch. However, if this was a one off people might say I would have run or I would not have run. Unfortunately we have a rider who always has blood at this level. We also have an overly tight flash getting a pass for Dressage. What are people supposed to think? The FEI, USE, and USEA need to realize that perception is truth at this point.

I cannot imagine continuing on with my horse bleeding and I am sure if I did my trainer would have my a**. If I ever tightened my noseband or (if I rode with one) my flash that tight I would get a lecture about how I don’t know what I am doing. If I change something on my horse she expects me to answer why I made the change and why I am using said equipment.

[Glyphica]

@ladyj79

I think some people over estimate the number of these kinds of incidents that occur. They really aren’t common among professionals or amateurs. If you have a lot of issues with these kinds of things happening to your horses, you really need to change something in your methods because it really isn’t hugely common to have cuts on the mouth from bits (or any equipment) if the equipment is in good repair, fitted and used appropriately.

This, exactly. The chance of having an accidental mouth bleed is probably 0.01% (I’ve had two over the course of my riding career, and I’ve been riding my whole life). I’m also alarmed by the injury it would take to cause blood to flow at the rate it seems to on ML’s horses. A basic bit pinch or lip crack/rub doesn’t bleed much. She must really by tearing up their faces.

I 100% support a no blood rule across all FEI sports. Bleeding animals do not need to be shown, and blood isn’t that common. At the very least, there should be a zero tolerance policy for blood on the head of the animal.

And speaking as an outsider – eventing needs to hurry up and get its $*** together. Between horse and rider deaths, rotational falls, and acceptance of blatant abuse, it’s only a matter of time before eventing is either pulled completely or radically altered.

[Carried_Away]

@BCov

The only power we have to stand up to Marilyn Little is with our dollars. Stop buying from her sponsors until they drop her. Maybe then she’ll finally get the message and re-evaluate her methods. You can find a complete list of them here with links to their FB pages and websites: https://www.facebook.com/bobby.covington.7/posts/10214224849248391

The annoying part about that is she has tons of $$$ so probably wouldn’t even care if she lost sponsors

[lmlacross]

@ladyj79

I think some people over estimate the number of these kinds of incidents that occur. They really aren’t common among professionals or amateurs. If you have a lot of issues with these kinds of things happening to your horses, you really need to change something in your methods because it really isn’t hugely common to have cuts on the mouth from bits (or any equipment) if the equipment is in good repair, fitted and used appropriately.

I don’t dispute this at all, and I completely agree that salve and bit guards should be preventative measures, not “responses to.” I’m not sure where I am with the idea of a black and white rule. I’d like to have faith in the judgment and discretion of those who should be our sport’s most qualified officials to determine what constitutes abusive or otherwise harsh treatment. I’d hate to see a horse and rider rolled for a popped scab or reopened clipper nick. And yes, I of course realize that either hypothetical would be exceedingly rare. Unfortunately, this approach (officials as consistent, responsible arbiters) hasn’t seemed to work out as well as my good faith would have it, so maybe it is time to try a more unequivocal approach.

[staceyk]

My best guess is that (regarding the mouth injury) the bit/hardware is severe enough that the mare bites her own lip in distress or from stress? I am curious about the location of the injury, whether it is bars of the mouth or gums or the lip, or if it is somewhere different every time.

[Jodyml813]

@ladyj79

I think some people over estimate the number of these kinds of incidents that occur. They really aren’t common among professionals or amateurs. If you have a lot of issues with these kinds of things happening to your horses, you really need to change something in your methods because it really isn’t hugely common to have cuts on the mouth from bits (or any equipment) if the equipment is in good repair, fitted and used appropriately.

100% agree! I have been a scribe, jump judge, judge, ring steward, warm up steward and competitor for over 20 years. I have seen blood in the mouth 3 times ever. Spur rubs twice and this is in well over 5,000 rides. It is not a common occurrence and any blood in the mouth should be cause for concern.

[ladyj79]

@lmlacross

I don’t dispute this at all, and I completely agree that salve and bit guards should be preventative measures, not “responses to.” I’m not sure where I am with the idea of a black and white rule. I’d like to have faith in the judgment and discretion of those who should be our sport’s most qualified officials to determine what constitutes abusive or otherwise harsh treatment. I’d hate to see a horse and rider rolled for a popped scab or reopened clipper nick. And yes, I of course realize that either hypothetical would be exceedingly rare. Unfortunately, this approach (officials as consistent, responsible arbiters) hasn’t seemed to work out as well as my good faith would have it, so maybe it is time to try a more unequivocal approach.

Yes. And yes. But I really do believe there’s just no reason to run or keep running a horse with a cut and bleeding mouth. Like that seems so much more self evident than a spur rub I’m surprised it is drawing so much pushback (not from you personally).

[fordtraktor]

I think it might be because a lot of the 100% rules have eliminated perfectly nonabusive riders in dressage and SJ. Was it Steffen Peters in dressage? He was gracious about it but that felt dumb, and Bertram Allen was eliminated a few years ago after a soft and lovely ride. It has happened other times too in SJ that seem ridiculous and unfair. Personally think the Eventing rule for the GJ and vet to consider on a case by case basis is more fair to good and nonabusive sport. The lip bite here was evaluated before and after and found not to be serious and not near the bit.

i find spur rubs more heinous by far than a bit lip not near the bit. And less than blood from the bit. I have never rubbed a horse raw in my life and I mostly have thin skinned TBs. I can’t see how that riding style is comfortable for a horse.

[ladyj79]

@fordtraktor

I think it might be because a lot of the 100% rules have eliminated perfectly nonabusive riders in dressage and SJ. Was it Steffen Peters in dressage? He was gracious about it but that felt dumb, and Bertram Allen was eliminated a few years ago after a soft and lovely ride. It has happened other times too in SJ that seem ridiculous and unfair. Personally think the Eventing rule for the GJ and vet to consider on a case by case basis is more fair to good and nonabusive sport.

Yeah I love those guys but I just don’t agree. I used to think as you do but now I think use a belly band. It’s still really rare. It’s really good for public perception to not have bleeding dismissed. That actually is important. More than eventing, show jumping is very high profile and mainstream. There’s a reason that eventing is like NASCAR and show jumping and dressage are not.

[fordtraktor]

How is Eventing like NASCAR? NASCAR is higher profile than any horse sport!

[fordtraktor]

@ladyj79 Also I have to think spur rubs are more painful — having an open sore and jabbing a metal spur into it repeatedly sounds more abusive than a lip bite. Sore corners of the mouth/bit injury, eliminate by all means.

[Graymaresrule]

@CatchMeIfUCan

Can we stop with the towel thing? It’s completely ludicrous and takes away the validity of the rule changes requests. Wiping mouths is not a normal practice for grooms, and it is not a horse welfare issue. Blood in the mouth is, and there is plenty of proof that those are occurring even if she does wipe it away at the finish. Let’s not punish all the other grooms who work for riders whose horses never bleed. I am a freelance groom, and I mostly use black towels because they look nice, are super easy to clean, and are in most riders colors. Sometimes I use turquoise blue towels, but those are only for going to the ring because they look dirty quickly. White towels would be impossible to keep even remotely clean and are not at all practical around horses. I take pride in presenting my horses nicely and looking nice myself. I do not want a dirty white towel sticking out of my pocket, and the color of my towel does not at all effect horse welfare.

Let’s just stick to elimination when blood is found in the mouth and more strict checks on flash nosebands. Lots of people would get on board with that, and it would solve the problems. I highly suspect her issues are with using a leverage bit with a tight flash. The horse can’t get away from that leverage and fusses in the mouth. Funny that there was a thread here on COTH praising the use of two reins on a pelham and the rider was using a flash noseband with it…

Perhaps eventing should go back to the rule wherre a rider could not dismounrt and the groom could not touch the horse until the GJ gave permission.

If blood was found the rider could be given a yellow or red card at the GJ’s discression.

[KingoftheRoad]

So, I’m not an event rider, I’m a jumper, but I follow eventing casually; it is a sad state of affairs that I knew immediately about ML’s past history with bloody mouths. But this is important enough that I have spent the morning sending emails and FB messages to the companies listed as her sponsors, asking that they reconsider their support of ML in light of the continued, documented, and photographed evidence that something is terribly wrong with the way she is presenting these horses in competition.

I won’t go further than that to make assumptions about how she treats her horses when they aren’t in the public eye, because I don’t have any knowledge of that. But the reality is this is too many times at public competitions where different horses have been observed bleeding. Given that the ground juries and officials are not permitted to take any past history into account, I’m not surprised that she was allowed to continue. But the pattern of behavior suggests that something different is going on.

The last time this happened, at Fair Hill, there was a 30-page thread, and then it all just died away quietly. Please don’t let that happen this time. Please contact her sponsors, and let them know that you will not spend your dollars with companies that condone this type of behavior. The USEF, USEA, and the FEI can all hide behind the interpretations of the rules - businesses that rely on your money don’t have that luxury. Please let’s not get another year down the road, and hear of this again - this has to be the time that we say STOP!

[BShipps]

@ladyj79

Nobody means to leave a spur rub, and I’m sure ML doesn’t mean to consistently make her horse’s mouth bleed. As no one else appears to be unable to bloody their horse’s mouth on course, a hard and fast rule on blood in the mouth seems like a pretty fair idea. She does not have this problem in show jumping, I think she should just go do that exclusively.

I was just going to say that… I don’t recall ever reading anything about her jumpers bleeding from the mouth or anywhere else. Hmm… now I’m curious and will have to do some searching.