Just circling back to the issue of bleeding in and around the horse’s mouth. I had it happen to me once going training when a curb chain pinched skin near the lip and some mouth foam was pink. I was surrounded as soon as I crossed the finish line and my horse was examined before I could even loosen her girth. Fortunately I was cleared.
i do not recall it ever happening in all the years I groomed mid to high goal polo and played at the intercollegiate level. Want to see some yanking and interesting bitting? I might have seen pink foam once or twice, but never, ever frank blood. Can’t say what’s happening now. Just relating what I saw with my own eyes.
To me another piece of the picture is that her horses are “heady”. All in all, I wouldn’t let ML ride or handle one of mine. (Not that she’s offered.)
Back in the dark ages riders at the end of the long format had to dismount, remove the saddle and weigh in before the groom was allowed to care for the horse. It seems that after the short format XC an official could do a brief wellness check, including wiping with a white towel, before the groom took charge of the horse. If blood is found either on the horses flank or mouth the rider receives a yellow card. Clean towel for each horse, any bloody towel tagged with horse’s number, bagged and given to GJ.
At dressage competitions a bit and noseband check is done after the test. NO reason this can’t be done at events, after every dressage and stadium round and before XC. First violation receives a warning and if before XC the rider must loosen it, second one at the same venue receives a yellow card.
ETA USEF rules for dressage
9. Ring stewards appointed by competition management must check saddlery and inspect bits and spurs on both sides of the horse for at least one-third of the horses in each class. Inspection of saddlery and bits must be done at the direction of the technical delegate. Inspection of saddlery and bits must be done immediately as the horse leaves the arena. (See DR126.1i)
I’m really really disappointed in these FB threads too. I too followed JH because of his interest in safety. But this is not OK.
Justine Dutton is suggesting we go the way of British Eventing and fine or ban anyone who has anything negative to say on Social Media. THAT is scary. THAT screams they want to hide everything. They can not handle this issue right now because they are all so close minded that they fear they will be next. Except they won’t be next if they don’t have multiple issues over several years and a complete lack of response to those issues. They want anyone who has a negative thing to say about eventing to be shut up.
Peggy Hambly who was head of Equestrian Canada also agrees with JH. This is the woman who had a horse die on her XC course that was so severely level creeped, and then didn’t bother even making a statement to the Ontario eventing community. Most people don’t even know a horse died at that event, most Ontario eventers do not have the ability to make a good choice at competing at her event in the future.
One person is saying shame on all of us for hurting Marilyns feelings.
Multiple horses needing stitches after XC? Why is our sport now in a place where horses are normally returned home injured and bleeding. This isn’t OK.
It is clear to see who is in eventing for the glory and who is in for the horses. I was going to attend WEG, had my rooms booked, holiday booked and everything, and I just can’t support eventing right now with these absolutely disgusting attitudes everywhere that this is totally OK.
If you are friends with Allie, I think Jonathan clarified his stance a bit on her page. I originally read his post as you did as well, but after reading what he posted to Allie, he seems to agree that this is not good for the sport and something better needs to happen. What I interpreted from what he said is that he feels that there is a need to use some caution and clear-headed thinking before making knee-jerk actions, not that he’s against taking any actions.
ETA: I haven’t read the thread on Jonathan’s page, but just what was shared on Allie’s.
B-I really wish people would stick to the obvious animal welfare issue here i.e. bloody mouths and not sidetrack into random speculation about heels and skirts and how gentle/not gentle she handles her horses at the jog because reasonable people will disagree on that and it allows her defenders to paint anyone complaining with the same overly critical brush and ignore the animal welfare aspect to this whole mess.
This. It’s disingenuous to compare the isolated incidents of Boyd Martin and Becky Holder to the AT LEAST 5 occurrences of ML on 3 DIFFERENT horses. If that’s not a PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR, I don’t know what is.
Yes, I think their concern is that, “Well, it happens to everyone every once in a while.” Yes, it does so if you dance to the tune, yes, you’re going to occasionally have to pay the piper. We’ve all gotten ourselves eliminated or retired for various reasons. It happens. Suck it up buttercup. That’s eventing.
I bet if ML had gotten yellow carded on more than one occasion as she should have, and then changed her kit as a consequence, then we wouldn’t be having this debate, now would we? Nice of USEF and FEI in their apathy to allow the tail to wag the dog here.
A zero tolerance for blood rule is a good idea for horse welfare and Eventing needs to come in line with show jumping and dressage. Period.
I too get tired of the condescending references to “peanut gallery” or the “arm chair quarterbacks” and the “oh, so you’ve never competed at this level, so you couldn’t possibly have a clue” and therefore your opinion is invalid, elitism. Like many, I’ve been riding and owning horses my entire life, do have a clue, and in my early 50’s have some decent money to throw around occasionally.
How easily they do seem to overlook the fact that it is these same people who attend these events and spend their dollars there; often buy the saddles and bridles and whatnot, from the sponsors these folks ride in and shill for, and sign up for rather expensive clinics to partake of their instruction. I’ve certainly observed actions and noted opinions, and made mental notes of who I’d spend that kind of money with and who I won’t.
I personally think it’s really damning to the cause to perpetuate an “us vs them”, upper level riders vs lower level riders/fans type of thing. From EITHER side. At the end of the day we’re all in this together and we all love the sport and the horses. It’s up to us to come together, understand the people who disagree with us and why, and find a solution that will hopefully work. Turning this into a civil war doesn’t do any of us any good in the long run.
I understand where Jon’s coming from and why he feels the way he does. He thinks that most people are calling for a complete zero tolerance rule - any bit of blood anywhere on the horse equals automatic DQ. I can see how that would be very concerning to many riders, not just upper level. Granted, I don’t think that this level of zero tolerance is what most people actually support. Either way, if that’s what these guys are hearing, I can definitely understand why they’re on the defensive. I might feel the same way in their position.
I DON’T think that sweeping it under the rug and doing nothing is the right answer (I’ve been advocating for a better rule for years), but I think it’s important to be careful what we rally for, and listen to all sides. At this point there’s no doubt that these incidents have happened and there’s no doubt that they’ve been damaging, so now it’s a matter of what do we do about it and how do we do it in a way that is intelligent.
IMO Sara Kozumplik Murphy is onto something with her idea, and I appreciate her desire to help find a real solution underneath all the mess while still being very respectful to different views. All of us can learn something from that.
I love how we are being called “ignorant” over on Jonathon Holling’s FB thread. Ignorant of what? Please educate us. What is it that we are not privy too? Please illuminate us so that we understand how multiple bloody mouths turning up on XC - and getting a pass by GJ’s - is no cause for alarm and anger.
Please tell me how the flash on that mare for the dressage was not cruel and that it’s OK that she was allowed to enter at A with it, and then not receive a yellow card? Would she have been allowed to enter at A in Europe with that flash? I think not. Then why was she allowed to enter at Kentucky? Well, we all know why.
And that we have been accused of jealousy and just plain not liking ML and therefore using Kentucky as an excuse for a pile on. Believe me, I have way better things to do than to spend time even thinking about this situation, much less contacting sponsors. But I have absolutely had it with this rider getting a free pass, over and over and over, when what she does would get any prelim/one-star-level nobody sent home with a yellow card any day of the week.
I got absolutely zero pleasure out of the news that she lost MDC’s sponsorship earlier this week. I’m sure that receiving that news was a bit of a blow for her, even if it’s just a couple of pair of stirrups. It is embarrassing, and that was the point. But getting the “big guns out” – going after this rider where it counts – public humiliation - was and still is the only recourse the “ignorant” “fans” have now. We have tried the “appropriate” channels. Nothing happens. Because the appropriate organizational leadership (FEI, USEF) are not doing their jobs.
So she will need to remove some logos from her trailers and website, etc. That’s got to suck. And we get it that the sponsor logos are a source of pride at the ULs. They symbolize success. That a company is willing to pin their hard-earned reputation on a rider because the rider is that good. Sorry not sorry. That that is what it took to finally bring some professional UL riders to the table on this is just sad. Don’t you guys in the US have your own organization - PRO – with a mission to protect your sport? You did at one time but I haven’t heard about it in a while. Maybe it’s just me, but I would think that you guys getting together and coming up with a solution to the issue, which is that the enforcement of horse welfare rules in eventing is subject to the discretion of the GJ and therefore liable to corruption and/or, ahem, misinterpretation on the ground. THAT IS THE ISSUE. You have a choice – continue to appear to lack a spine, attack the messengers (the “ignorant” non-UL riders and general public), or get it together and get in front of this issue and solve it – or at least appear to try to do so. But insulting the “masses” via accusations of ulterior motives (that we just "hate her and that’s the reason for this – give me a break), ignorance, and lack of experience, is just fueling the fire and earning you guys even less of our respect and willingness to support you. The ball is in your court.
Can someone please clarify the exact relationship between Packy and ML? That post of his is being used as justification for continued support by sponsors, and their reasoning is that he is an experienced professional. If they don’t realize there is an underlying bias, might be good to make them aware.
NC Rider, I think you misunderstood my post about the clothing at the jog. I wasn’t bashing her, just making a comment about what I personally think is ridiculous clothing at a jog, such as flowing skirts and feminine shoes-not appropriate for jogging a horse, IMHU. Nothing was said or mentioned about the person-this-thread-is-naming. In fact, when a jog of hers WAS brought up, I, (probably being blind,) defended her as I didn’t really see a faut. I do believe in coming down on where appropriate, and jogging togs not the area, but It was just a comment, and besides, I didn’t see most of the jog at B.
Nice to see the media taking note of the lack of ownership on their part - why ARE they hiding? Any other sport the media outlets would be asking the hard questions first.
If your (general) horse bites itself or hits it’s face on a jump frequently enough that you are worried about being disqualified at something for it wouldn’t that mean you have something you need to change, not just move forward with how you are still doing things?
That is the part I do not get.
The side that says it is no big deal because horses bite themselves… If a horse keeps biting itself then it is time to figure out why not just say ‘oh well, it happens’.
“What bothers me more is what can only be publicly perceived as complete ignorance of a clear pattern.”
My last trip to Rolex was in 2014. I remember being very impressed by ML in dressage on both her mounts, RF Demeter and RF Smoke on the Water. I don’t remember anything in particular about her in either cross country or stadium, but I do remember feeling devastated for and with her when she lost Smoke the next week.
There were allegations of mouth blood in 2015:
RF West Indie in the CCI3* at Fair Hill in October 2015.
RF Demeter at Galway Downs in October 2015.
RF Scandalous at Boekelo also in 2015.
Then in October 2016, blood on the mouth with Scandalous at Fair Hill.
ML was next on my personal radar at Kentucky 2016 with the pushing of Demeter until she crashed. And then again at the Wellington Showcase in early 2017 where she had another fall with Demeter.
And now blood again with Scandalous, Kentucky 2018.
I guess maybe it is personal with me now because I do not want ML representing the USA at the WEG - or anywhere.
"The Danish Equestrian Federation has released an instruction video on the function, use and tightness of nosebands.
Over the past few years the Danish FN has received much critique from horse welfarists, who exposed ill fitting bits and bridles at Danish competitions on social media.
The federation had to take active measures for damage control and ordered a comprehensive study on riding equipment and tack to be carried out in 2014. The study showed a clear correlation between tight nosebands and the presence of mouth lesions."
