Maryland 5*

[StormyDay]

@FitToBeTied

Pondering the lack of entries problem. I wonder how much scheduling has to do with it. Maryland is the week before Pau. How many of the european riders opt to stay close to home versus flying overseas?

You have a similar situation in the spring with Kentucky and Badminton. It should be noted that entries for Kentucky have fallen off quite a bit in the past several years while Badminton has remained strong.

Maybe changing dates on these events would make them more attractive.

In my (admittedly) uneducated opinion the whole calendar needs to be moved around drastically and they need to take into account the 4* and 3* events along with other possible conflicts too.

It seems to me the best option would to put Maryland and Kentucky in late October and early November so riders in Europe could do both without having to worry about multiple plane trips. You could move them both to the spring instead. I’d probably recommend fall because of weather, but that’s because I’m a wimp who dislikes rain. Pau would have been much better off in the summertime when the weather would have been more pleasant (and with less mud). Badminton would be better off in late June or July for optimum weather.

I mean, really, why don’t they just put me in charge of rearranging everything? I’m definitely extremely qualified.

[Blugal]

Galways Downs 4*-L this weekend only has 4 entries.

[FitToBeTied]

@Blugal

Galways Downs 4*-L this weekend only has 4 entries.

That’s quite sad isn’t it.

[Bonnie2]

Morven 4*-L had what, 12? In 2018 FHI 3*(before advanced became 4*)-L had 38, 2019 FHI 4*-L had 47. If my quick search is correct. It seems US calendar coordinators need to look more at what US riders need. These low numbers are not sustainable. Maryland’s terrain certainly lends itself to an attractive picture of a top of the line international event. But the reality is a “Pau” like 5* in Florida would have probably drawn more entries.

[FitToBeTied]

@Bonnie2

But the reality is a “Pau” like 5* in Florida would have probably drawn more entries.

Probably but the US should have something comparable to burghley or badminton. KY is not on that level. the scheduling of the 5* needs to be reviewed.

[Larksmom]

But the Americans mostly are not able to do well at Ky. How long before Tami won last year has it been since an American has won? Why do you think the Brits come over? They know they are probably going to win.

[hopashore1]

Well…except then any NA riders could not compete the same horse in both US 5* events as MD and KY would be competing against each other for entries.

I don’t think you move Pau based on the weather in one year.

I don’t think this is a problem a quick calendar change can solve. Even UK/Europe entries are down–Badminton historically has a hefty waitlist–this year it was very short and all riders made it off. I think this is a horsepower problem. I would be really interested to see changes at the 3* level, There’s various reasons why entries might be low in the last two years (Covid fallout still, changes in qualification requirements, bad luck, olympics, etc.). If there’s a healthy pipeline still that’s a different outlook than if 3* entries drop off too.

[phoenixrises]

could it just be that many owners think that 5* is just too risky for the horse? I mean there’s not a lot of $ in eventing so maybe that has nothing to do with it, but I don’t’ think there are less horses who can do the 5* level (seems like while they don’t grow on trees there wouldn’t be less now) but maybe the owners who would have campaigned and spent the $ on a 5* career just aren’t there?

[StormyDay]

@hopashore1

Well…except then any NA riders could not compete the same horse in both US 5* events as MD and KY would be competing against each other for entries.

I don’t think you move Pau based on the weather in one year.

I don’t think this is a problem a quick calendar change can solve. Even UK/Europe entries are down–Badminton historically has a hefty waitlist–this year it was very short and all riders made it off. I think this is a horsepower problem. I would be really interested to see changes at the 3* level, There’s various reasons why entries might be low in the last two years (Covid fallout still, changes in qualification requirements, bad luck, olympics, etc.). If there’s a healthy pipeline still that’s a different outlook than if 3* entries drop off too.

If you put Maryland and Kentucky 3ish weeks apart then I think there would be no issues with competing for entries. I think that the issue will always be there that the USA is out of the way in the eventing world. A 5* rider could fill their calendar without ever leaving Europe… you can’t say the same about the USA. So there needs to be a good reason to come (prize money) and make it easy to come (only having to fly to the USA once). At least that’s my take on it

Personally I think upper level eventing is going to die out unless there are some major changes made. The cost to get a horse to the 5* level is enormous. The time to get a horse to that level is second only the UL dressage. The money won is low comparatively to other disciplines. Why compete at the 4* or 5* level? Why not compete in show jumping where the money is better and you could easily never need to leave the USA and still have your pick of shows? Or dressage, where the money has also gotten better? That’s the question that, IMO, needs to be addressed. How do we draw riders to keep riding at the upper levels? I don’t think lower level eventing has anything to worry about because the sport is fun. But fun only goes so far.

[Marigold]

@StormyDay

If you put Maryland and Kentucky 3ish weeks apart then I think there would be no issues with competing for entries. I think that the issue will always be there that the USA is out of the way in the eventing world. … there needs to be a good reason to come (prize money) and make it easy to come (only having to fly to the USA once). At least that’s my take on it

I’m not sure how this can be true. The riders would certainly be able to do both Maryland and Kentucky if they were 3 weeks apart, and any horses who had very early problems could redirect, but to be clear a 5* event horse would never be asked to make those efforts in such quick succession. It’s just not an appropriate level of demand for their bodies.

It was a very big deal the year La Biosthetique Sam (considered by many to be the greatest event horse of all time) completed Kentucky, Luhmuhlen, and Burghley in one year. Those events were still separated by a minimum of two months (57 days to be exact) and the horse did not run a single other event that year, preparatory or otherwise, besides a short one several levels lower before Kentucky. To the best of my knowledge no other horse has repeated the feat.

Most 5* riders do not have enough horses at the level that they can run one string at one event and another at the second, so having those two events close together would very much compete for entries instead of allowing the same combinations to run both - one in the spring, one in the fall - which was the original argument for a second American event at the level.

[Amberley]

It’s the cost. I know at least a dozen people who did Kentucky in the 90s and early 2000s they all just had a horse and trained it and competed it and scrimped and saved and took time off work and drove across the country in their little two horse or slant load with some friends and did it. Did they fly to Europe and do Badminton? No. They didn’t get rich either. No-one formed a syndicate, no-one paid $100k for their horse, no-one had full training or $20k worth of saddles or $1k month in vet bills or whatever the hell is making it so expensive these days. There used to be tons and tons of riders in their 20s-40s happily chasing that dream, many part time. And now there are almost none.

[AskMyAccountant.17]

I don’t think so. I personally don’t know any riders who are competing/or have and are trying to again, compete Intermediate through Advanced that if given the opportunity wouldn’t WANT to ride at 5*****. The “want to” is certainly there. It’s not a matter of if we had the horse qualified, able, and finances allowed the riders wouln’t WANT to go 5*****.

I think it’s just the execution in our own ability.That ability includes financial, able bodied horses, and (I’ll loop myself in to not offend anyone) skill. Trust me, I’m trying and it may take another decade, but if you offered up the horse, the finances, and enough instruction I feel like you’d have a very, very long line I’d probably be scratching my way to try to be first in line.

It struck me a few weeks ago some late teen riders were walking a course with our group, and in the most serious of conversations they were discussing that once your horse was going a certain level you were able to get sponsors and owners, like it was easy to do. (And maybe thats a little issue, in that young riders are getting so blind-sided once on their own, the own mental hump of trying to work this habit out after a few failed attempts is too much.)

There are plenty of great pairs that have an exemplary resume coming up the levels unable to find owners. We have one-time 5***** riders, who after their junior horse retires can’t make it back up again, not for lack of trying. It’s just so expensive to bring these horses along. (Not to mention if you did have one-time sucess are likely an uncategorized rider, so the single horse requires double the time to get the MERs)

And I think culturally, we don’t have many benefactors offering to buy shares of these horses. Those riders able to secure owners, that’s a skill. That skill doesn’t necessarily correlate 1 for 1 with good riding. There is a skill to be able to seek out owners or ways to fund the habit by being a good salesman, communicating with the right circle of people, providing an experience the person who can support you would enjoy.

[Texarkana]

A while back I was listening to an UL rider speak about his then 5 star horse. He said people kept asking if she was injured because he hadn’t been competing her. He said she was completely fine, there was just no money to compete her at the moment. He was lamenting that he had a proven 5 star horse at the peak of her career sitting around doing nothing because it was too expensive to keep competing.

At that time he wasn’t sure if finances would improve or they would have to sell her. I’m not sure what happened.

[Jealoushe]

The want is definitely there, there just aren’t as many 5* horses in NA. Europe has the benefit of pulling horses from how many countries?? A bunch. Over here it’s USA and Canada. Canada has the most 5* riders now I think it ever has actually, not sure what’s happening in the US but numbers seem to be dwindling.

Two big names who aren’t doing 5* currently for example are Doug Payne and Liz Halliday.

Those two alone have taken 2-10 entries away at 5* in NA.

[StormyDay]

@Marigold

@StormyDay

If you put Maryland and Kentucky 3ish weeks apart then I think there would be no issues with competing for entries. I think that the issue will always be there that the USA is out of the way in the eventing world. … there needs to be a good reason to come (prize money) and make it easy to come (only having to fly to the USA once). At least that’s my take on it

I’m not sure how this can be true. The riders would certainly be able to do both Maryland and Kentucky if they were 3 weeks apart, and any horses who had very early problems could redirect, but to be clear a 5* event horse would never be asked to make those efforts in such quick succession. It’s just not an appropriate level of demand for their bodies.

It was a very big deal the year La Biosthetique Sam (considered by many to be the greatest event horse of all time) completed Kentucky, Luhmuhlen, and Burghley in one year. Those events were still separated by a minimum of two months (57 days to be exact) and the horse did not run a single other event that year, preparatory or otherwise, besides a short one several levels lower before Kentucky. To the best of my knowledge no other horse has repeated the feat.

Most 5* riders do not have enough horses at the level that they can run one string at one event and another at the second, so having those two events close together would very much compete for entries instead of allowing the same combinations to run both - one in the spring, one in the fall - which was the original argument for a second American event at the level.

Yeah I guess I was going more off the assumption that different horses would be going at different events for the same rider. See, this is why I stated how extremely qualified I was to be rearranging the calendar previously.

[Beau_Soleil]

Make it more lucrative?

[Amberley]

How costly is it to compete at that level these days? It used to be entry fee + stabling fee + organization fees and that was about it. Are the entry fees that high now?

[leighbo009]

I bet there is maintenance, a horse running 5* probably needs more maintenance to stay happy than just be-bopping around at home?

Plus trailering, probably XC schooling fees, extra lessons to be competive, costs to trailer out to condition on hills or water treadmills?
I’m guessing whoever is not competing the 5* horse is because the funds aren’t there to be competive, not to not enter? The professional is making more money spending their time riding young horses for owners who pay all the bills then spending their own money to run 5*.

[Blugal]

There are few events at Advanced and 4* I’m some geographic areas. Travel and time off work are huge expenses.

The qualifications are more numerous (need one MER within 12 weeks I believe, that isn’t easy in some parts of the country) and harder to get (dressage score is lowered to 45, time faults on XC can scupper your weekend, etc).

One abscess or lost shoe can mean you now need to wait thru winter, get your within 12 weeks MER, then try again. That’s 6 months of expenses and trying to keep a horse happy, sound, and fit.

[StormyDay]

@Amberley

How costly is it to compete at that level these days? It used to be entry fee + stabling fee + organization fees and that was about it. Are the entry fees that high now?

I think it’s more everything around it. Travel; I think to take one horse overseas is like 20k round trip now? Plus you’ve got all the tack and your groom(s), housing costs, board costs, random paperwork costs. Even if you only do the two American 5* travel will add up. You probably need a secretary of some sort to keep everything straight for the trips; maybe that’s you but probably that’s being hired out. To be really competitive you probably need to go south for the winter (unless you’ve based yourself out of somewhere like Aiken) so that’s costly. Medical costs for an 5* horse must be crazy high.