MB Civil Trial: JK/KK Contempt of Court?

[BigMama1]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

A CPS worker showing up that day though, and that ongoing harassment LK was dishing out potentially impacting the lives of children he deeply cared about? THAT pushed him over an edge.

With his own history of childhood trauma and abuse, that doesn’t surprise me one bit. Healing and recovery will take time.

[Knights_Mom]

@eggbutt

Absolute truth!

What is hysterical is they somehow think that you, Sdel, me and I guess the entire Elderly Illegal Mob have a direct line to Michael and we influence him daily. Apparently we are supposed to encourage him to accept and admit wrongdoing although he has no memory of the wrongdoing. This sort of sounds like bad cops forcing confessions out of innocent people so they can close their case.

Remember the infamous letter from jail Michael wrote years ago? You know, the one Lauren loved to misinterpret? Do you recall her ever mentioning that he wrote one word about her or August 7, 2019? Nope, but she implied he’d said he remembered the events of the day, which was a complete lie. This is the same BS they are pushing again. Put words in Michael’s mouth because they are panicked they will lose the civil cases.

The Kanareks have been wrong about everything. You and I know that!

Or when his supposed ‘admission of guilt’ in the aftermath of the event after getting knocked out twice, had his arm broken while being pummeled repeatedly (center mass?) for 7 minutes while being repeatedly bitten in the 'nads was “I had a good life.”?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@BigMama1

@CurrentlyHorseless

I don’t believe 1. at all. It’s not about the amnesia.

2. is closer. MB not understanding that he very highly probably shot LK indicates that he still has delusional thinking.

#1 Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant. Please stop cluttering up what was a productive discussion with the same nonsense over and over again.

#2 No. Not understanding / remembering/ admitting that he shot LK has absolutely nothing to do with delusional thinking. You clearly don’t understand what this term means. Please stop cluttering up what was a productive discussion with the same nonsense over and over again.

@BigMama1

Another poster, VHM wrote a post giving her interpretation of my position and listed herinterpretation as the two points.

I was clarifying for her what my position (my belief) is.

Is that OK with you?

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

But LKs case against SGF rests in the claim that SGF knew or should have known they were leasing the facility to a man with a history of depression, abuse as a child, CPTSD, who came to be in a mentally fragile state. I think the insanity finding probably does shift the liability away from Barisone and toward SGF.

Except again for the pesky fact that he was entirely stable for all of his career, received regular counselling / therapy and was not “mentally fragile” by any accounts until LK began her campaign of terror against him.

And again, the NGRI verdict has NO BEARING on the civil case. For insanity to be relevant re civil liability, the lawyers will first have to convince a jury that MB shot LK, then convince them that he was insane at the time, and then convince them that SGF should and could have reasonably foreseen that could happen.

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

was clarifying for her what my position (my belief) is.

Is that OK with you?

No it’s not, since you ask. You keep repeating the same false assertions over and over and over again. What could possibly need clarifying? We all know what you believe because you tell us every 5 or 6 posts, despite many people carefully and patiently explaining to you why your beliefs are not relevant, not based in fact and why your oft-repeated position is categorically wrong.

I am running out of patience. We all know you are wrong. You know you are wrong yet continue to make false assertions for no apparent reason other than to channel your inner Yankee Duchess and irritate everyone else on the board… I’m sure there’s a word for that.

I have done my best to correct the record and refute your willful misinterpretations of the facts. I now join all those brave souls before me who tried the same but got tired of beating their heads against a brick wall and opted instead to put you on ignore and / or simply stop responding.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@BigMama1

@CurrentlyHorseless

But LKs case against SGF rests in the claim that SGF knew or should have known they were leasing the facility to a man with a history of depression, abuse as a child, CPTSD, who came to be in a mentally fragile state. I think the insanity finding probably does shift the liability away from Barisone and toward SGF.

Except again for the pesky fact that he was entirely stable for all of his career, received regular counselling / therapy and was not “mentally fragile” by any accounts until LK began her campaign of terror against him.

And again, the NGRI verdict has NO BEARING on the civil case. For insanity to be relevant re civil liability, the lawyers will first have to convince a jury that MB shot LK, then convince them that he was insane at the time, and then convince them that SGF should and could have reasonably foreseen that could happen.

If it is established that he was “entirely stable” for his entire career, etc, that reduces the burden on SGF.

IM and LK have hinted that they have evidence and witnesses to abusive behavior in his past. I don’t know what the have. They’ll need evidence of make the case against SGF.

If the “did he shoot her” portion of the criminal trial is retried, presumably the “was he insane” portion will be as well. If the civil jury decides he was not insane, there’s less liability for SGF and more for MB/RC.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@BigMama1

the lawyers will first have to convince a jury that MB shot LK, then convince them that he was insane at the time, and then convince them that SGF should and could have reasonably foreseen that could happen.

Let’s be more specific. Bruce Nagel will be the person who has to convince the jury of all this. Though he is a “super lawyer” … and apparently REALLY effective at ambulance chasing and winning money… this is going to be a challenge.

“Like-ability” is going to matter when it comes to the jury in this matter… if it ever goes to trial.

On one side, we have Bruce Nagel arguing on behalf of LK.

On the other side, we have Chris Deininger acting as lead counsel on behalf of MB.

The “like-ability” factor alone weighs in favor of MB. Heavily so. Just look at random people on YouTube’s reactions to LK during the criminal trial! And Schellhorn did a pretty decent job when he had her on the stand at getting her to tell her story and seem somewhat sympathetic. Bruce will not be able to manage her on the stand with the same carefulness and restraint…

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

If it is established that he was “entirely stable” for his entire career, etc, that reduces the burden on SGF.

IM and LK have hinted that they have evidence and witnesses to abusive behavior in his past. I don’t know what the have. They’ll need evidence of make the case against SGF.

If the “did he shoot her” portion of the criminal trial is retried, presumably the “was he insane” portion will be as well. If the civil jury decides he was not insane, there’s less liability for SGF and more for MB/RC.

I would bet the farm that there are FAR more potential witnesses to LKs bad behavior than MBs bad behavior.

From my understanding he and Vera are still friends. I’m betting LK isn’t with her former spouse. Wasn’t there an order of protection or something against her with that?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

I don’t believe 1. at all. It’s not about the amnesia.

2. is closer. MB not understanding that he very highly probably shot LK indicates that he still has delusional thinking.

Does that automatically mean that he is dangerous and psychotic? No.

Does it mean that the judge was not convinced that he could be released without danger to himself and others? Yes. Apparently.

What is your interpretation as to why the judge decided to commit MB instead releasing him?

As far as the bolded portion, I do not agree that is why Taylor didn’t release MB yet. I do not agree at all. I think multiple other factors influenced Taylor’s decision. Some I understand and appreciate. A shooting is a serious thing. MB was suffering from a delusional disorder and psychotic at the time of the shooting. LK is obviously continuing to pursue a civil suit, which will inevitably cause more stress to MB, who is clearly fragile. So there is lots of risk. If MB completes the progr at Greystone? Hopefully it will mitigate some risks.

Other reasons I think Taylor didn’t release MB just yet… like his negative dynamic with Bilinkas… I think are rather crummy. I think Taylor resents that Bilinkas just got a VERY public legal victory, by winning an NGRI case.

Regardless of Taylor’s reasons… the program at Greystone is a pretty reasonable next step. And if MB remains emotionally stable there over the next few months, non violent, and participates in his therapy… he will be released to outpatient treatment in a matter of months. Maybe the full 6. Maybe earlier. I don’t know. I’m not a lawyer or expert in this field. But it’s pretty obvious. But my guess is he will be released in less than a year.

I think is TREMENDOUSLY upsetting to the Kanareks. TREMENDOUSLY so. Don’t you? LK gleefully posted on YouTube she anticipated he would be locked away in a max security psych ward for years. It seems that was wishful thinking on her part. I think she’s having trouble coping. And that’s a shame… because it’s going f to get harder for her in the near future. Sitting for her deposition is going to be grueling.

You think Taylor didn’t release MB because he knew the civil suit would be grueling and MB needed support? Why not order conditional release with plenty of psychiatric treatment and support?

I respect Taylor’s impartiality. I don’t think he has a grudge against Bilinkas that he would take out on MB.

I don’t see the basis for your confidence he’ll be released in a few months. My interpretation was that he’s committed for 6 months, with reconsideration at that time.

And no, I don’t think the outcome of the Krol hearing was upsetting to the Kanareks. Why would it be? The judge ordered MB committed rather than released.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

IM and LK have hinted that they have evidence and witnesses to abusive behavior in his past. I don’t know what the have. They’ll need evidence of make the case against SGF.

Oh just stop with this crap. There was no hinting. There was a post involving dropping names and serious allegations. Is Bruce Nagel going to demand VK sit down for a deposition and act as a witness in this matter, providing testimony? I doubt it. Not if he doesn’t know EXACTLY what she might testify to, and whether or not that will work for… or against… his client’s case.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

If it is established that he was “entirely stable” for his entire career, etc, that reduces the burden on SGF.

IM and LK have hinted that they have evidence and witnesses to abusive behavior in his past. I don’t know what the have. They’ll need evidence of make the case against SGF.

If the “did he shoot her” portion of the criminal trial is retried, presumably the “was he insane” portion will be as well. If the civil jury decides he was not insane, there’s less liability for SGF and more for MB/RC.

I would bet the farm that there are FAR more potential witnesses to LKs bad behavior than MBs bad behavior.

From my understanding he and Vera are still friends. I’m betting LK isn’t with her former spouse. Wasn’t there an order of protection or something against her with that?

Is that a real offer to bet the farm?

You ducked on IMs offer to take any action on a bet that MB would be out by Christmas.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

You think Taylor didn’t release MB because he knew the civil suit would be grueling and MB needed support? Why not order conditional release with plenty of psychiatric treatment and support?

Not what I said. And you know it. You are just frustrated that everyone, including me, is not biting on the latest attempts at narrative shaping.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

IM and LK have hinted that they have evidence and witnesses to abusive behavior in his past. I don’t know what the have. They’ll need evidence of make the case against SGF.

Oh just stop with this crap. There was no hinting. There was a post involving dropping names and serious allegations. Is Bruce Nagel going to demand VK sit down for a deposition and act as a witness in this matter, providing testimony? I doubt it. Not if he doesn’t know EXACTLY what she might testify to, and whether or not that will work for… or against… his client’s case.

Geez. Fine. Drop the word “hint”.

I did not see whatever post you’re referring to.

They’ll need evidence of MBs past abusive behavior to establish the “knew or should have known”.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@SpicyPRE

And her outlets for attempting to controll the narrative have been significantly limited. Fighting with people on YT is quite pathetic.

Yup. And she realizes it was pathetic. But she couldn’t help herself. It was interesting to read some of the comments.

I-M gave away the game, emotionally speaking, when he rushed onto the forums yesterday to sneer and snarl at @Knights_Mom and @eggbutt following the Krol hearing. The Ks can’t stand that they have no ability to influence the ongoing discussions on these forums.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

Is that a real offer to bet the farm?

You ducked on IMs offer to take any action on a bet that MB would be out by Christmas.

Easy there killer… not one of you jokers will ever be allowed a fungused pinky toe on my farm, much less get it.

So I suggest you Amazon yourself a bib or a dribble cup while you excessively salivate in hopeful anticipation.

Then perhaps you don’t want to “bet the farm”.

I didn’t say MY farm.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Whatever damages LK is awarded for her injuries, I think the damages will be apportioned by percentages to the three defendants. So the interests of SGF and MB are at odds.

Oooh. Who’s feeding you that!

[Scribbler]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@erinmeri

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

It’s related to the ongoing legal situation. It would be sooooo much easier for the Kanareks if MB would just make some sort of admission of responsibility. So much easier.

There is a deliberate effort here to persuade people that his release from Greystone is actually somehow contingent on him making some sort of admission with respect to the shooting. It’s a weird attempt at manipulation of some sort. It’s not working. At all.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@erinmeri

I wonder if CH’s insistence that he apologize for or recognize his supposed acts stem from our society’s belief that addicts and alcoholics should atone for things they don’t recall? That’s the only parallel I can draw… otherwise, it’s just plain bizarre.

It’s related to the ongoing legal situation. It would be sooooo much easier for the Kanareks if MB would just make some sort of admission of responsibility. So much easier.

There is a deliberate effort here to persuade people that his release from Greystone is actually somehow contingent on him making some sort of admission with respect to the shooting. It’s a weird attempt at manipulation of some sort. It’s not working. At all.

Yes.

I think what’s also happening is a conflation of concepts, by someone unclear on legal concepts.

They are confusing being released from a mental hospital with being granted parole.

Someone who pleads innocent to a crime but convicted and sent to the penitentiary is supposed to be become penitent (that’s the root word) and admit to the crime and feel remorse before he is allowed parole. Someone who steadfastly maintains innocence is thought to be in denial. This is obviously a pretty nasty Catch - 22 situation for those who are actually innocent.

Indeed even earlier in the process some folks without good legal representation can be pressured to plead guilty in a plea bargain even though they are innocent.

Anyhow, none of that applies to MB’s situation. He has been found not guilty (by reason of insanity) and he is not in prison or seeking parole. He has no requirement to repent. The bar to his release is his mental health, presumably connected to depression and anxiety.

However, we are not privy to the details of this and we do not know the contents of what is being termed delusional thoughts. And there is no reason we should know those things.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

You nailed it.

There was an earlier post from CH … maybe 50 ago, that FINALLY responded to my queries about the victim impact statement. She brought up either a sentencing or parole hearing in relation to that. AGAIN… it’s more of this conflation between MBs ongoing commitment situation, after being found NGRI, and the legal situations and hearing processes related to guilty people.

[Warmblood1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

But LKs case against SGF rests in the claim that SGF knew or should have known they were leasing the facility to a man with a history of depression, abuse as a child, CPTSD, who came to be in a mentally fragile state. I think the insanity finding probably does shift the liability away from Barisone and toward SGF.

Have you ever filled out a lease, for personal and/or for business matters, that inquired about being previously depressed? Having PTSD? Having been a victim of domestic violence? Of course not. Those are discriminating factors. SGF had no obligation, nor would they be within their legal right, to ask any of these questions. SGF should be held accountable just as much as a landlord with a depressed tenant.

The factors that SGF did have to go off of, such as a prior criminal record, prior financial history - all the normal and legal aspects of a background check to determine rental eligibility, checked out for MB. He was a good candidate for rental.

[ekat]

@Warmblood1

The factors that SGF did have to go off of, such as a prior criminal record, prior financial history - all the normal and legal aspects of a background check to determine rental eligibility, checked out for MB. He was a good candidate for rental.

Plus, he was part of SGF.