MB update

[Knights_Mom]

@hut-ho78

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@FitzE

Just a quick question: I see lots of references to ‘conditional release’ but just plain release is also an option, correct?

As for the ridiculous ‘remorse’ thing now being pushed: It’s a proven fact from things posted here and elsewhere that the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding. They are still out there pushing the idea that MB shot at RG and RG is just, literally, faster than a speeding bullet. So they think the jury got that point wrong. Otherwise they’d have to be saying, the jury had to first decide if he did or didn’t shot at RG before they could get to the insanity question, they clearly decided he did not, so that’s dispositive of that question: MB was found to have NOT shot at RG. But, that’s not at all what they are saying. They use that lovely little logical walk through of jury deliberation only for the NGRI part of the verdict. Because of course they do.

I’m not sure who you’re referring to as “they” or “the other side”, but I have explicitly said that I think the jury got the following points correct: 1) beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot LK in a manner likely to cause death, 2) the evidence was not there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MB attempted to murder RG, and 3) MB was legally insane at the time he shot her.

I’ve said several times that I think the verdict was just. I agree with all elements of the verdict. So no, it is not “a proven fact” that “the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding.”

In short: they say that moving onto considering mental state = the jury found the MB intentionally shot LK = that’s proof it happened. Using their own logic, the opposite would be true for the RG-related charges, ergo, MB shooting at RG didn’t happen. Yet, they are still out there telling that story, over and over and over again.

You’re right that the jury moving on to considering MBs mental state is proof of something. It’s proof that the jury determined as fact finders that, beyond a reasonable doubt MB shot LK. It’s not “proof” that he shot her if by “proof” you mean 100% certainty. All we know is that the jury found that, beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot her.

It is NOT my logic that “ergo” the RG shooting “didn’t happen”. MB may or may not have aimed at RGs head. All we know from the jury’s verdict of NG wrt the charges regarding RG is that there was not evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that MB was aiming at RG.

Who is out there, “telling that story, over and over and over again”? I haven’t said it and I haven’t seen it argued by others.

I imagine many, including people in MB’s camp, believe the jury got it wrong that he intentionally shot LK. Not that they don’t respect the jury’s process, just that they got that one point wrong, most likely through no fault of their own, since there was almost no forensics to go on. Certainly LK’s civil attorney thinks the jury got it wrong.

The use of the word “intentionally” is problematic. But if you’re saying that people “in MBs camp” “think the jury got it wrong” with respect to finding MB NGRI on the charges wrt LK, then, yes, several people in MBs camp are still pushing self defense or accidental discharge during a scuffle. This does suggest that they think the jury was at fault. If there was not enough forensics to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot MB, the jury should have taken the lack of forensic evidence to find that they were unable to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot her. Taking the forensic evidence presented to them, the jury found that that evidence was sufficient to establish that, beyond a reasonable doubt, he shot LK.

Why would MB express remorse over something he cannot remember and the jury may not have been able to accurately determine due to the shocking lack of forensic evidence gathered?

Let’s assume the amnesia is real. He sat through his own trial and has lawyers to explain to him the fact that the jury’s finding of NGRI wrt LK indicates that the jury, as fact finders, determined that he did (beyond a reasonable doubt) shoot LK, and nearly killed her.

He is not obligated to express remorse to LK or her family. In order to win release or conditional release, he needs to convince the court that he is no longer insane and suffering from delusions. The idea that he shot LK in self-defense? Delusion! The idea that LK lured him to the farmhouse that day so that they could beat him up, and the gun went off in a “scuffle”? Delusion! The idea that, however much the jury is to be respected, they got that one little detail wrong on his shooting of LK, and he is currently in a secure psychiatric facility facing a Krol hearing because the jury goofed when they decided NGRI instead of NG? Delusion!

If he is going to get beyond his delusions, I think he needs to acknowledge, to himself and his closest supporters, at a minimum, that he understands that he shot and nearly killed someone.

By that reasoning, and if it is felt important that apologies and remorse are expressed based upon the verdict, I assume LK and RG have apologised and expressed remorse for accusing MB of shooting at RG, right? I mean, in line with the twaddle being pushed here, that would also be required based on the verdict, no?

Expressing apologies and remorse to the victim are not the crucial issue. The crucial issue is whether MB is sane enough to admit to himself that, (beyond a reasonable doubt), the determination of the jury was that be shot and nearly killed someone.

No one, including RG, is in a position to know with absolute certainty whether MB was aiming for RGs head and firing the gun. RG and the prosecutor thought he was. The jury’s verdict indicates that, whether did or didn’t aim for RGs head, there was not sufficient evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. So, no, RG (and the state of NJ!) accusing MB of the attempted murder of RG would not require an apology or expression of remorse based on the jury’s verdict. Not that I’ve ever said that MB is “required” to apologize or express remorse to LK for having shot her. My point was that to get beyond his delusions, he needs to acknowledge to himself that he shot and nearly killed her. Also that his “supporters” continuing to nurse these delusions is not helpful, IMHO, in promoting the mental healing, or winning the release of, someone who committed a violent act while in a delusional state.

My response in bold.

NGRI means there was no crime as mens rea didn’t exist. There was no finding MB shot her beyond a reasonable doubt.

You keep getting the verdict confused with Guilty but insane. It’s not.

No. You are the one who is mistaken. Guilty but insane can have criminal incarceration. MB is Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity (NGRI). Facing a hearing for being committed to an institution for his own safety or others has nothing to do with being found Guilty but Insane or Not Guilty. The one means prison, the latter means he walks out of court a free man (upon processing). The NGRI means the jury believes he shot LK twice with the Ruger but was not responsible because he was insane during the act, delusional, not guilty, and not criminally liable. That did not mean he was able to walk out a free man. It means he has to be administratively committed for evaluation for his own safety and that of others and that until he demonstrates he is sane and no longer a danger to himself or others, he will continue to stay institutionalized and will undergo mandatory re-evaluations to protect his rights.

I agree with the jury and the verdict. Not only that, it is the only verdict that protects LK and gives all parties a chance to heal and rebuild their lives. It’s up to them what they do with it.

Not Guilty-walks out a free man.
Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity-held until deemed no longer a threat to self or others, may have conditional release-no criminal liability.
Guilty but Insane-prison with mandated psychiatric care.

Here is a link that explains Guilty but Insane and the differences from that to Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity or the simple Not Guilty.

http://jaapl.org/content/jaapl/30/4/553.full.pdf

Doesn’t load. And I’m not mistaken.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Ok - this quoted portion actually came from @CurrentlyHorseless long post…

Yawn, we’ve moved on already. Let’s get back to work on the piaffe and passage and not go back to the 20m circle.

[ekat]

@hut-ho78

until he demonstrates he is sane

NO.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@hut-ho78

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Hey Everyone! Guess what?

Unnecessary and senseless bickering.

Oh come on. There is zero bickering involved with that. It was a joke.

Have a sense of humor.

[ekat]

@Warmblood1

Mr. B seems like a confident, charismatic man. I think he’d be great to have a beer with. I’d really like to hear some of his stories, I bet he has some good ones.

I would love to have a beer with the man!

[hut-ho78]

@Sdel

@CurrentlyHorseless

Yes, and if the jury had been convinced by the prosecution’s psych experts that he shot LK while NOT in a delusional state, he’d be in prison instead of a psychiatrist institution right now.

Yes, he was found to be in a state of delusion….one that was brought on by extreme fear. The state psych witness confirmed for the jury it was right for them to accept Simring’s conclusions that the delusions were brought on by LK’s actions.

Just because a jury is charged to find things a certain way doesn’t mean they always do. That is the basis for jury nullification. One way is for a jury to completely disregard jury instructions on how to find a verdict and do their own thing. For all you know, they thought he was straight up NG on all charges but felt obligated to ensure he got mental health treatment for the damage LK did to him and that is why they came up with NGRI.

The state psych witness said that MB was sane and not delusional when he shot LK.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Fair enough:-)

[3PonyFarm]

I always wonder when a crime occurs in a small community how everyone can remain impartial to conduct a fair trial for the defendants. It seems human nature could take over and color everyone’s perception of the event.

In another case I am following, the Rhoden family murder trial out of Pike County Ohio, one of the Wagner defendants, the eldest son, goes to trial next month. Two of the Wagners have already pled guilty and are to testify in the trial against the other two.

It is my understanding that this is a small community and an article said the potential jury pool is only 1300. I believe a change of venue was already declined. I don’t think I could be impartial if I was a member of the jury in this case. The 8 murders were horrific.

Thanks again for your contributions!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@hut-ho78

The state psych witness said that MB was sane and not delusional when he shot LK.

But, the jury ruled NGRI… correct?

Did you get a chance to review the posts on this thread from @ekat about the Krol hearing process? Some of the content was really well researched and very informative on a legal/procedural level.

[ekat]

@3PonyFarm

I always wonder when a crime occurs in a small community how everyone can remain impartial to conduct a fair trial for the defendants. It seems human nature could take over and color everyone’s perception of the event.

In another case I am following, the Rhoden family murder trial out of Pike County Ohio, one of the Wagner defendants, the eldest son, goes to trial next month. Two of the Wagners have already pled guilty and are to testify in the trial against the other two.

It is my understanding that this is a small community and an article said the potential jury pool is only 1300. I believe a change of venue was already declined. I don’t think I could be impartial if I was a member of the jury in this case. The 8 murders were horrific.

Thanks again for your contributions!

Ok, now I want to learn about that case.

I think that you just have to trust that once the actual jury panel takes that oath and is sworn in, they’ll take it seriously. A lot of void dire weeds out so many. If they get through 1,300 and can’t find a jury, they’ll call in more.

You’ve done jury duty, right? I may be confused here…if I am, I’m sorry. But, if it was you, once you got into the meat of the case, so to speak, you kind of feel the weight of that oath and that duty, right? I tend to believe most people are like that. Or at least I like to hope that’s the case.

[Fiesta01]

@eggbutt

When we’re out and about passersby have insisted Elvis must be part dalmatian and actually vigorously argue with us about it!

[Knights_Mom]

@hut-ho78

@Sdel

@CurrentlyHorseless

Yes, and if the jury had been convinced by the prosecution’s psych experts that he shot LK while NOT in a delusional state, he’d be in prison instead of a psychiatrist institution right now.

Yes, he was found to be in a state of delusion….one that was brought on by extreme fear. The state psych witness confirmed for the jury it was right for them to accept Simring’s conclusions that the delusions were brought on by LK’s actions.

Just because a jury is charged to find things a certain way doesn’t mean they always do. That is the basis for jury nullification. One way is for a jury to completely disregard jury instructions on how to find a verdict and do their own thing. For all you know, they thought he was straight up NG on all charges but felt obligated to ensure he got mental health treatment for the damage LK did to him and that is why they came up with NGRI.

The state psych witness said that MB was sane and not delusional when he shot LK.

The jury disagreed. That opinion counted more than yours does now.

[3PonyFarm]

Yes I did serve on a jury for a civil case. It was a sad case but we did rule for the defendant.
I got dismissed for the criminal case as one of the peremptory challenges, the first one to go.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

But why doesn’t CH feel the same passion for defending him?

That’s the question.

Hmmm….seems like another evasion in the works. Still waiting for an answer from our horseless companion. Maybe, should the question be asked of others, we could get an answer to it?

[ekat]

@3PonyFarm

Yes I did serve on a jury for a civil case. It was a sad case but we did rule for the defendant.
I got dismissed for the criminal case as one of the peremptory challenges, the first one to go

See, I like to believe that everyone serves as honestly and diligently as you, even if it means sometimes you are the one they strike.

[Angela_Freda]

@chestnutmarebeware

And it was a particularly heinous series of crimes—the victims were all found missing their heads!

This happens to my neighbors turkeys he’s raising.
It’s owls decapitating his.
They drop the skulls at my house,… after digesting.

[Unfforgettable]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I haven’t said that he is obligated to express remorse, only that he hasn’t expressed remorse, AFAIK.

Why do you even keep bringing up the idea of MB “expressing remorse?”
“AFAIK” means nothing. Even if he does, none of us will ever probably know about it.

[3PonyFarm]

The Pike County Massacre | Sneak Preview | Hometown Tragedy: A True-Crime Series...

If the link worked, this is a video of the other case I mentioned. It is supposed to air soon. If you google it, a bunch of articles come up as well.

[ekat]

It works! Thank you! That will be interesting for me to dig into.

Edit to add: I don’t mean to sound disrespectful when I say interesting. It sounds like a horrific tragedy. It’s always interesting to try to learn about why these things happen, and the legal process is also interesting.

[Unfforgettable]

@hut-ho78

The state psych witness said that MB was sane and not delusional when he shot LK

The state psych witness provided more entertainment value than credibility, and he gave the state the answer they wanted in order to prove their case (which they clearly did not).