MB update

[Knights_Mom]

@3PonyFarm

Could he refile with a different complaint of some sort?

Yes. That’s what I posted earlier. I don’t know the specifics of NJ law but not only could you try reopening on the original charge you could maybe try malfeasance or maybe some sort of negligence (of duty).

The civil judge won’t be Judge Taylor the criminal judge. It could be the same civil judge if they utilize an IAS system where judges and parties stay together.

[ekat]

@3PonyFarm

Since it was the same judge that will be over the upcoming civil case, is there any conflict of interest as he is already aware of the case through the first one and already ruled on it?

This happens a lot, especially in smaller jurisdictions with a limited number of judges in the bench. It’s not an inherent conflict to preside over a new or different action filed by parties to a previous action.

[3PonyFarm]

Thank you @Knights_Mom & @ekat!

[Warmblood1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Yes, that is post 572. To check the exact post number, click “edit” on your own post containing the quote of mine. Right there in the header of the quote from my post it’ll say “CurrentlyHorseless, post:572”.

Likewise, if you click edit on your post quoting KM, the quote header will say “post 574”.

To check a post number, you can also click on the time stamp, such as “9 hours”. The system will return both the exact time and the exact post number.

It’s very odd that the numbers would be different for you. Perhaps you could post a screen shot?

You’ll see the initials RG come up numerous times, between FitzEs post and my response. Why do you say there has been no discussion of RG?

Okay, thank you, I appreciate that. When I checked in the edit screen, the post did say 572. However, the post count in the lower right corner of my phone screen said 570, I believe.

My question was: there has been a great deal of conversation regarding alleged abuse or harassment of LK on the forums and/or online, but none stating RG has endured such abuse and/or bullying. I have seen these statements with LKs, KKs, and your posts (concerning the harassment and/or bullying of LK). With all the discussions surrounding RG, and even the potential for some to believe RG was shot at, just not proven, why hasn’t there been any discussion about the alleged harassment or bullying RG has received? Why is it solely about LK?

[Knights_Mom]

Maybe because RG isn’t actively putting his name to a screen name and threatening posters so people leave him mostly alone except with comments about being kept, drug use and failed Marinedom

[hut-ho78]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@FitzE

Just a quick question: I see lots of references to ‘conditional release’ but just plain release is also an option, correct?

As for the ridiculous ‘remorse’ thing now being pushed: It’s a proven fact from things posted here and elsewhere that the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding. They are still out there pushing the idea that MB shot at RG and RG is just, literally, faster than a speeding bullet. So they think the jury got that point wrong. Otherwise they’d have to be saying, the jury had to first decide if he did or didn’t shot at RG before they could get to the insanity question, they clearly decided he did not, so that’s dispositive of that question: MB was found to have NOT shot at RG. But, that’s not at all what they are saying. They use that lovely little logical walk through of jury deliberation only for the NGRI part of the verdict. Because of course they do.

I’m not sure who you’re referring to as “they” or “the other side”, but I have explicitly said that I think the jury got the following points correct: 1) beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot LK in a manner likely to cause death, 2) the evidence was not there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MB attempted to murder RG, and 3) MB was legally insane at the time he shot her.

I’ve said several times that I think the verdict was just. I agree with all elements of the verdict. So no, it is not “a proven fact” that “the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding.”

In short: they say that moving onto considering mental state = the jury found the MB intentionally shot LK = that’s proof it happened. Using their own logic, the opposite would be true for the RG-related charges, ergo, MB shooting at RG didn’t happen. Yet, they are still out there telling that story, over and over and over again.

You’re right that the jury moving on to considering MBs mental state is proof of something. It’s proof that the jury determined as fact finders that, beyond a reasonable doubt MB shot LK. It’s not “proof” that he shot her if by “proof” you mean 100% certainty. All we know is that the jury found that, beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot her.

It is NOT my logic that “ergo” the RG shooting “didn’t happen”. MB may or may not have aimed at RGs head. All we know from the jury’s verdict of NG wrt the charges regarding RG is that there was not evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that MB was aiming at RG.

Who is out there, “telling that story, over and over and over again”? I haven’t said it and I haven’t seen it argued by others.

I imagine many, including people in MB’s camp, believe the jury got it wrong that he intentionally shot LK. Not that they don’t respect the jury’s process, just that they got that one point wrong, most likely through no fault of their own, since there was almost no forensics to go on. Certainly LK’s civil attorney thinks the jury got it wrong.

The use of the word “intentionally” is problematic. But if you’re saying that people “in MBs camp” “think the jury got it wrong” with respect to finding MB NGRI on the charges wrt LK, then, yes, several people in MBs camp are still pushing self defense or accidental discharge during a scuffle. This does suggest that they think the jury was at fault. If there was not enough forensics to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot MB, the jury should have taken the lack of forensic evidence to find that they were unable to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot her. Taking the forensic evidence presented to them, the jury found that that evidence was sufficient to establish that, beyond a reasonable doubt, he shot LK.

Why would MB express remorse over something he cannot remember and the jury may not have been able to accurately determine due to the shocking lack of forensic evidence gathered?

Let’s assume the amnesia is real. He sat through his own trial and has lawyers to explain to him the fact that the jury’s finding of NGRI wrt LK indicates that the jury, as fact finders, determined that he did (beyond a reasonable doubt) shoot LK, and nearly killed her.

He is not obligated to express remorse to LK or her family. In order to win release or conditional release, he needs to convince the court that he is no longer insane and suffering from delusions. The idea that he shot LK in self-defense? Delusion! The idea that LK lured him to the farmhouse that day so that they could beat him up, and the gun went off in a “scuffle”? Delusion! The idea that, however much the jury is to be respected, they got that one little detail wrong on his shooting of LK, and he is currently in a secure psychiatric facility facing a Krol hearing because the jury goofed when they decided NGRI instead of NG? Delusion!

If he is going to get beyond his delusions, I think he needs to acknowledge, to himself and his closest supporters, at a minimum, that he understands that he shot and nearly killed someone.

By that reasoning, and if it is felt important that apologies and remorse are expressed based upon the verdict, I assume LK and RG have apologised and expressed remorse for accusing MB of shooting at RG, right? I mean, in line with the twaddle being pushed here, that would also be required based on the verdict, no?

Expressing apologies and remorse to the victim are not the crucial issue. The crucial issue is whether MB is sane enough to admit to himself that, (beyond a reasonable doubt), the determination of the jury was that be shot and nearly killed someone.

No one, including RG, is in a position to know with absolute certainty whether MB was aiming for RGs head and firing the gun. RG and the prosecutor thought he was. The jury’s verdict indicates that, whether did or didn’t aim for RGs head, there was not sufficient evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. So, no, RG (and the state of NJ!) accusing MB of the attempted murder of RG would not require an apology or expression of remorse based on the jury’s verdict. Not that I’ve ever said that MB is “required” to apologize or express remorse to LK for having shot her. My point was that to get beyond his delusions, he needs to acknowledge to himself that he shot and nearly killed her. Also that his “supporters” continuing to nurse these delusions is not helpful, IMHO, in promoting the mental healing, or winning the release of, someone who committed a violent act while in a delusional state.

My response in bold.

I think this is my favorite post of yours. Very clear. Agree.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

But why doesn’t CH feel the same passion for defending him?

That’s the question.

[Knights_Mom]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

But why doesn’t CH feel the same passion for defending him?

That’s the question.

I too would like to hear CHs answer to that question.

[Warmblood1]

Wait, so Judge Taylor will be the judge for the civil suit?

[ekat]

@Warmblood1

Wait, so Judge Taylor will be the judge for the civil suit?

No, the judge for the civil suit was also the judge for the police suit.

[ekat]

Those poor ham sandwiches. They get such a bad rap.

[Warmblood1]

Oh, LOL. Ok, thanks. Looking forward to a different judge, no disrespect to Taylor.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Hut-Ho’s back everyone!!!

It’s officially a party

[ekat]

@Warmblood1

Oh, LOL. Ok, thanks. Looking forward to a different judge, no disrespect to Taylor.

I feel the same. No disrespect to Judge T. But it will be interesting to see a different judge with Mr Deininger taking lead. He presents so differently from Mr Bilinkas. No disrespect to Mr B, either. I have a professional crush on him and his lawyering, lol.

[Warmblood1]

I know it’s hard to imagine that someone in the elderly illegal mob is in their productive years, but I’m preggo and man, I really miss sandwich meat. Even before this thread.

[ekat]

@Warmblood1

I know it’s hard to imagine that someone in the elderly illegal mob is in their productive years, but I’m preggo and man, I really miss sandwich meat. Even before this thread.

Well, considering those sandwiches are all getting into trouble, you’re better off without them!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Ok - this quoted portion actually came from @CurrentlyHorseless long post…

@FitzE

It is NOT my logic that “ergo” the RG shooting “didn’t happen”. MB may or may not have aimed at RGs head. All we know from the jury’s verdict of NG wrt the charges regarding RG is that there was not evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that MB was aiming at RG.

Let’s be clear… there was a SEMI TRUCKLOAD of reasonable doubt that the third shot even happened…

Why not assume that the jury thought the same thing, hence their straight NG verdict on both charges related to RG?

Why all this parsing of details about which way MB did or didn’t aim, in the hypothetical world where the jury actually believed that a 3rd shot occurred?

[hut-ho78]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@FitzE

Just a quick question: I see lots of references to ‘conditional release’ but just plain release is also an option, correct?

As for the ridiculous ‘remorse’ thing now being pushed: It’s a proven fact from things posted here and elsewhere that the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding. They are still out there pushing the idea that MB shot at RG and RG is just, literally, faster than a speeding bullet. So they think the jury got that point wrong. Otherwise they’d have to be saying, the jury had to first decide if he did or didn’t shot at RG before they could get to the insanity question, they clearly decided he did not, so that’s dispositive of that question: MB was found to have NOT shot at RG. But, that’s not at all what they are saying. They use that lovely little logical walk through of jury deliberation only for the NGRI part of the verdict. Because of course they do.

I’m not sure who you’re referring to as “they” or “the other side”, but I have explicitly said that I think the jury got the following points correct: 1) beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot LK in a manner likely to cause death, 2) the evidence was not there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MB attempted to murder RG, and 3) MB was legally insane at the time he shot her.

I’ve said several times that I think the verdict was just. I agree with all elements of the verdict. So no, it is not “a proven fact” that “the other side at least partially disagrees with the jury’s finding.”

In short: they say that moving onto considering mental state = the jury found the MB intentionally shot LK = that’s proof it happened. Using their own logic, the opposite would be true for the RG-related charges, ergo, MB shooting at RG didn’t happen. Yet, they are still out there telling that story, over and over and over again.

You’re right that the jury moving on to considering MBs mental state is proof of something. It’s proof that the jury determined as fact finders that, beyond a reasonable doubt MB shot LK. It’s not “proof” that he shot her if by “proof” you mean 100% certainty. All we know is that the jury found that, beyond a reasonable doubt, MB shot her.

It is NOT my logic that “ergo” the RG shooting “didn’t happen”. MB may or may not have aimed at RGs head. All we know from the jury’s verdict of NG wrt the charges regarding RG is that there was not evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that MB was aiming at RG.

Who is out there, “telling that story, over and over and over again”? I haven’t said it and I haven’t seen it argued by others.

I imagine many, including people in MB’s camp, believe the jury got it wrong that he intentionally shot LK. Not that they don’t respect the jury’s process, just that they got that one point wrong, most likely through no fault of their own, since there was almost no forensics to go on. Certainly LK’s civil attorney thinks the jury got it wrong.

The use of the word “intentionally” is problematic. But if you’re saying that people “in MBs camp” “think the jury got it wrong” with respect to finding MB NGRI on the charges wrt LK, then, yes, several people in MBs camp are still pushing self defense or accidental discharge during a scuffle. This does suggest that they think the jury was at fault. If there was not enough forensics to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot MB, the jury should have taken the lack of forensic evidence to find that they were unable to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot her. Taking the forensic evidence presented to them, the jury found that that evidence was sufficient to establish that, beyond a reasonable doubt, he shot LK.

Why would MB express remorse over something he cannot remember and the jury may not have been able to accurately determine due to the shocking lack of forensic evidence gathered?

Let’s assume the amnesia is real. He sat through his own trial and has lawyers to explain to him the fact that the jury’s finding of NGRI wrt LK indicates that the jury, as fact finders, determined that he did (beyond a reasonable doubt) shoot LK, and nearly killed her.

He is not obligated to express remorse to LK or her family. In order to win release or conditional release, he needs to convince the court that he is no longer insane and suffering from delusions. The idea that he shot LK in self-defense? Delusion! The idea that LK lured him to the farmhouse that day so that they could beat him up, and the gun went off in a “scuffle”? Delusion! The idea that, however much the jury is to be respected, they got that one little detail wrong on his shooting of LK, and he is currently in a secure psychiatric facility facing a Krol hearing because the jury goofed when they decided NGRI instead of NG? Delusion!

If he is going to get beyond his delusions, I think he needs to acknowledge, to himself and his closest supporters, at a minimum, that he understands that he shot and nearly killed someone.

By that reasoning, and if it is felt important that apologies and remorse are expressed based upon the verdict, I assume LK and RG have apologised and expressed remorse for accusing MB of shooting at RG, right? I mean, in line with the twaddle being pushed here, that would also be required based on the verdict, no?

Expressing apologies and remorse to the victim are not the crucial issue. The crucial issue is whether MB is sane enough to admit to himself that, (beyond a reasonable doubt), the determination of the jury was that be shot and nearly killed someone.

No one, including RG, is in a position to know with absolute certainty whether MB was aiming for RGs head and firing the gun. RG and the prosecutor thought he was. The jury’s verdict indicates that, whether did or didn’t aim for RGs head, there was not sufficient evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. So, no, RG (and the state of NJ!) accusing MB of the attempted murder of RG would not require an apology or expression of remorse based on the jury’s verdict. Not that I’ve ever said that MB is “required” to apologize or express remorse to LK for having shot her. My point was that to get beyond his delusions, he needs to acknowledge to himself that he shot and nearly killed her. Also that his “supporters” continuing to nurse these delusions is not helpful, IMHO, in promoting the mental healing, or winning the release of, someone who committed a violent act while in a delusional state.

My response in bold.

NGRI means there was no crime as mens rea didn’t exist. There was no finding MB shot her beyond a reasonable doubt.

You keep getting the verdict confused with Guilty but insane. It’s not.

No. You are the one who is mistaken. Guilty but insane can have criminal incarceration. MB is Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity (NGRI). Facing a hearing for being committed to an institution for his own safety or others has nothing to do with being found Guilty but Insane or Not Guilty. The one means prison, the latter means he walks out of court a free man (upon processing). The NGRI means the jury believes he shot LK twice with the Ruger but was not responsible because he was insane during the act, delusional, not guilty, and not criminally liable. That did not mean he was able to walk out a free man. It means he has to be administratively committed for evaluation for his own safety and that of others and that until he demonstrates he is sane and no longer a danger to himself or others, he will continue to stay institutionalized and will undergo mandatory re-evaluations to protect his rights.

I agree with the jury and the verdict. Not only that, it is the only verdict that protects LK and gives all parties a chance to heal and rebuild their lives. It’s up to them what they do with it.

Not Guilty-walks out a free man.
Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity-held until deemed no longer a threat to self or others, may have conditional release-no criminal liability.
Guilty but Insane-prison with mandated psychiatric care.

Here is a link that explains Guilty but Insane and the differences from that to Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity or the simple Not Guilty.

553.full.pdf

[Warmblood1]

@ekat

I feel the same. No disrespect to Judge T. But it will be interesting to see a different judge with Mr Deininger taking lead. He presents so differently from Mr Bilinkas. No disrespect to Mr B, either. I have a professional crush on him and his lawyering, lol.

Mr. B seems like a confident, charismatic man. I think he’d be great to have a beer with. I’d really like to hear some of his stories, I bet he has some good ones.

[hut-ho78]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Hey Everyone! Guess what?

Unnecessary and senseless bickering.