I’m pretty sure Hastings raced; didn’t he win the Belmont? It does make you wonder how they go from being at least manageable enough to race to being complete psychos that no one will go near without 3’ of chain and a baseball bat. Does breeding just really affect certain stallions temperament-wise or do handlers just stop even trying to deal with them when they’re done running?
I have a gelded son of Storm Cat right now bred by Overbrook that my husband bought as a polo prospect. We call him Oscar because he is always grouchy and wears his ears back and you think he is going to be really nasty but then you get one on one with him, he really enjoys the attention. We will see how he rides!
I also heard Devil’s Bag was nasty, which probably came from Halo/Hail to Reason. I knew a girl who had a daughter of his and she was not the best to deal with but did not throw it to her sporthorse babies.
Ole Bob Bowers, sire of John Henry, was also known to be quite a pill.
I think the “nasty” comes from breeding, not handling. I worked on the track for years and saw very little “stallion” behavior, since most of the guys are retired at ages 3-4.
Did see some VERY nasty behavior here & there, but had nothing to do with gender. I was the groom for a Swaps colt who had to be gelded he was so vicious – and that really didn’t help him. Oh, he was a beauty – but what a snake. As long as I took care of him I ALWAYS went into his stall with some sort of “weapon” – a broom, rake or something.
You had to or he’d eat your lunch!
I also took care of a mare who had been barred from the track in NZ after breaking one guy’s back & another’s leg with her antics. She was actually ok as long as you didn’t pick a fight with her.
I think the reason you see this more in TB sires is because TBs are bred for one thing only – to run fast. They really don’t care much about temperament.
Meanwhile, WBs are judged on temperament and bred for the same – especially the dressage stallions.
I honestly don’t think managment plays THAT big a part in shaping a stallion’s behavior. Some, but I truly think genetics are a much bigger issue.
[QUOTE=danceronice;4525381]
The big problem was not so much Fair Play as his unraced sire, Hastings. Hastings was a rank bastard who was probably as close as you get to an equine sociopath. Fair Play was mean, but Hastings would try to kill you and mean it. He was too dangerous to race and while I don’t know if he ever actually killed anyone he did manage to cost at least one handler some fingers.
However, while they were still HOT for the most part, cross Fair Play on a Rock Sand mare and you would get a good horse. Or even great. Man o’ War and his full brother My Play were also both fantastic sires, and Man o’ Wars son War Admiral is one of the most important broodmare sires in US thoroughbreds while War Relic is another important breeding stallion.
Though wasn’t Hard Tack on the mean side, plus slow?[/QUOTE]
Hastings did indeed race, winning the Belmont Stakes. http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hastings.html
I do not know if Hard Tack was mean, but I do know he was uncooperative. He was not slow however.
[QUOTE=Centuree;4517687]
Was he a lion or a pitbull? That’s weird for a horse, a flight animal, to go for the jugular.
All of this is so strange to me. Horses are herbivores, flight animals. I am not saying I don’t believe it - it’s just I’ve only owned the sweetest horses, and cannot picture any of them turning on me.[/QUOTE]
Do you own stallions? Sometimes, everything changes on the way to the breeding shed. My guy is a nice stallion but if he would RUN over you in a second, if he could get away with it, to get to a mare a half a millimeter faster. But he knows he can’t…
Sex is a VERY exciting activity and if you get in a stallion’s way to the breeding shed, or if they think you do and think they can do something about it, watch out! That said, training a stallion to respect you and your space is critical to good stallion management.
But those aren’t the scary ones. The scary ones are the ones that have decided that humans are the gate keepers for everything fun (mainly sex) in life and they KNOW they are bigger and badder. I have met them like that, but never and won’t ever own one like that.
Stallions in the wild, fight each other to death over herd control and breeding rights. Herbivores or not, breeding the most, the best mares is what their lives revolve around. Stallions have harems, it is through their force of personality in controlling their mare herd (the mares generally aren’t related and don’t have strong bonds with each other) and their physical strength (in fighting off other stallions), that they get to keep their mares in their herd. If a stallion views you as a barrier to their mares and they aren’t well socialized, they behaved VERY differently than mares or geldings.
I have to wonder how many of the dangerous horse were created. I had many discussions with a guy that was a long term groom at the track. The stories he told always ended with me being astounded that they were never allowed to discipline ANY bad behavior.
To me, if a youngster takes a swipe at you with teeth or hoof, I read them the riot act, and rarely do they repeat more than once. He told me they were not allowed to discipline as they WANTED that attitude to race. So how many of these bad boys would have become puppy dogs if someone said “NO!”, and made them wish they had never even thought of doing that?
The stories he told always ended with me being astounded that they were never allowed to discipline ANY bad behavior.
To me, if a youngster takes a swipe at you with teeth or hoof, I read them the riot act, and rarely do they repeat more than once. He told me they were not allowed to discipline as they WANTED that attitude to race. So how many of these bad boys would have become puppy dogs if someone said “NO!”, and made them wish they had never even thought of doing that?
Darlyn - funny - I was thinking the exact same thing when I was feeding tonight and was going to post along the same lines … 
If Spinning World had been “Bob - the mutt Heinz 57 stallion from Jim Bob’s place yonder over the hill” and Bob decided one day to assert himself and Jim Bob kicked the crap out of him and told him in no uncertain terms that “No!” meant “NOOOOOO!!!” would Spinning World have then understood the parameters under which he was permitted to operate and been a well mannered, well behaved and respectful stallion only requiring regular reminders of his place in life afterwards?
I wonder if a lot of this behaviour isnt exactly cultivated, so much as it is PERMITTED, and then over time, it gets so ingrained into their psyche’s, that it is the ONLY way they know to operate and behave forevermore?
I have an adorable TB that is the spitting image of his grandsire, Silver Ghost, apparently the meanest stallion in living memory according to the internet ;). I’ve met my horse’s sire, Silver Music, and he was puppy-dog quiet. Lived with other horses, jogged in hand for us on a rope down the aisle. I guess Ghost’s bad genes got left behind, or his temperment was created. Luckily for me, I guess.
I’ve been in the same barn with seven different WB stallions, and only one was different to handle than the geldings. That one though was truly frightening, in in my opinion the owners were taking a huge risk with the safety of people and other horses in keeping him a stallion. It’s one thing if it lives entirely at your barn, but if you’re sending it out to other people’s barns or horse shows then I think you should be damn sure you’re not putting others in danger.
After reading all your messages I sincerely hope that a thread on the “Sweetest Stallions in History” would bring as many responses… It is a good thing to know that we do not find as many sour individuals in todays horse breeding stock, except, perhaps, in the race horse business.
Foxtrot - exactly. I’ll never forget how compassionate the Hasslers were with him - it was very clear that they had taken his past in account, and were trying to help him get over it. I think that was pretty evident when watching him with Scott. When I watched them in the flesh, he looked absolutely joyous in his work and they appeared to have an incredible bond. I think the same thing is evident in the video clips of them together. The Hasslers were also emphatic about how important they felt it was for stallions to lead normal, happy lives - basically the same thing as you said.
DownYonder - Now I’m curious myself. At this point I think I’ve probably heard about 4 different reasons for his death! Maybe at one point I’ll ask Hilltop directly, just to satisfy my curiosity. With regard to the self-mutilation - I could have almost sworn hearing that rumor associated with another one of their stallions, but I’m not sure. Also, at the time that my source told me about his death, the source also said that another one of their stallions (a very popular one) was really not doing well - severe back problems, I think? - and they weren’t sure if they might have to euthanize him too. I guess he must’ve recovered, because the info I heard never really got around. But because that info never really got out and because I didn’t hear it first-hand myself, I’m very hesitant to name names just in case that info was incorrect.
Oh, and regarding the Cor Noir gelding you met - would the barn you boarded at have happened to be in the PNW? :winkgrin:
What a sad, sad thread! I’ve only seen one really “mean” stallion…when I was at my first Oldenburg NA inspection in South Florida.probably 1995ish…and an “import” was to be inspected. No one could/would go into his stall to braid him… he was so aggressive. So when they let him out for the inspection, he promptly jumped the fence and caused much havoc. Later we learned the poor horse hadn’t been" let out of his stall" for ages (years???)…no wonder he was frustrated and vicious.
I’m very lucky that my two stallions are both sweetie pies…I am a 59 year old 5’2 lady and I handle, ride and collect them both myself…but I’ve been careful to treat them as “horses” with plenty of turn out, grass, friends, etc…and disipline when necessary (but fairly!)
SOO sad for those mentioned above…and of course, their handlers…
[QUOTE=Brutust;4525996]
After reading all your messages I sincerely hope that a thread on the “Sweetest Stallions in History” would bring as many responses… It is a good thing to know that we do not find as many sour individuals in todays horse breeding stock, except, perhaps, in the race horse business.[/QUOTE]
Uh huh, there is a 6 page thread at Thoroughbred Champions listing the nice ones (only one page less than the “meanest stallions” thread over there).
http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=39017.0
[QUOTE=harvestmoon;4526174]
Uh huh, there is a 6 page thread at Thoroughbred Champions listing the nice ones (only one page less than the “meanest stallions” thread over there).
http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=39017.0[/QUOTE]
I was just about to post this, but you beat me to the punch.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;4525179]
Do we really believe that horses can reason in this manner, as in “I am going to wait until she turns her back on me one day and lets down her guard and then I am going to nail her good!” ???
I thought that beliefs along this line, was attaching human emotions and thought processes over to an animal, which simply was not correct or possible?[/QUOTE]
It is a mistake of hubris to think that only humans plan or feel. Evolutionary advantages to both.
Of course an animal can plan to attack you.
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It is a mistake of hubris to think that only humans plan or feel.
I had to look this one up, as I’d never heard of the word “hubris” before …
What Does Hubris Mean?
The characteristic of excessive confidence or arrogance, which leads a person to believe that he or she may do no wrong. The overwhelming pride caused by hubris is often considered a flaw in character.
Investopedia explains Hubris
Hubris may be developed after a person endures a period of success. Corporate executives and traders overcome by hubris may become a liability for their firms. A manager might start making business decisions without fully thinking through the consequences, or a trader may begin taking on excessive risk. In many cases, people overcome by hubris will bring about their own downfall.
So - basically - one takes for “granted” that a horse cannot reason, plan or think and through this error in judgement, they put themselves in a precarious and vulnerable position whereby they can be harmed? As in “I have been around horses for 20 years, I know pretty well everything there is to know about them, I know stallions very very well also and there is no way any of them will ever get the upper hand over me in any situation?”
That pretty well sum it up?!
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Daimont question
I knew a Diamont son who was a bit of a bully. Not mean, but definitely could decide that he would hurt himself in order to get what he wanted. This was a horse you needed to lead with a chain every. damned. day.
There were many other Diamont babies floating around NorCal in the '90s as I remember, and many of them were like this. Then rumors emerged that Daddy was regularly lead by two grooms.
Is any of that true?
These horses were often sold to ammy lady DQs.
as far as behavior goes
I think it is a little bit of both, genetics and handling. I have owned stallions for 28 years, as many as 5 at a time, and thankfully I never owned “the perfect storm” type fella. That is what I believe happens to the really bad ones. The genetics can not be denied otherwise temperment would not follow families, but handling is definitely a big factor in “attitude” When I bought one of my stallions, he was a holy terror in the breeding shed. I was not told this by the previous owner and instead of the 3 MEN it took to live cover him before I bought him, I lead him out to breed our first mare and quite surprisingly to me, I arrived to the mare on my stomach, holding on for dear life to protect her and my NON horsey husband from harm!!!
The next day my husband, 6.1 220 lbs, decided he could “hold” him, well he did but it broke 2 of his fingers!!! Needless to say, that stallion and I had a MEET YOUR MAKER afternoon, one of us was going to do just that unless that stud changed his attitude, …and the next mare AND EVERY mare after that was approached on a hesitating step, one at a time and old studly was made to stand there and court her a bit instead of knocking her down as he was used to doing.
A friend of mine, an unbelievable study of equine behavior, kind of a “profiler” of sorts, was asked to come down to Fla to help with a stallion that a breeder had just bought, a world champion, that had previously killed a handler and injured quite a few more. When that stallion arrived, he was in a steel cage with 2 handlers on each side leading him with 8 foot long poles and another guy walking behind him with another long bat and a loaded pistol. The stallion was wearing the same halter he had been wearing for more than 5 years, he had worn places in his face from never having the halter removed. He was just too dangerous to approach without the halter, the handlers used hooks on the poles to attach to the sides of his halter so they did not have to approach him unprotected. Marshal told them to take the halter off when they put him in the stall.
Marshal just sat in front of the stall for 3 days studying that stallion’s behavior, watching him watch other people in the barn and other horses being lead up and down the barn hall. On the 3rd day he walked into his stall carrying just a leather halter and a lead rope. That stallion swelled up to twice his size and Marshal just stood there, speaking quietly, not looking him in the eye, and in about 10 minutes the stallion walked over to him and ALLOWED Marshal to put the halter on him. That horse was never aggressive again. I asked Marshal how he knew when he was ready, Marshal never answered me other than to say, “he invited me in”.
This is an example of abuse making the monster, I own a daughter of this stallion’s and she and her babies are the sweetest ever.
Two examples of stallions being aggressive for two very different reasons and the tactics used to end their behavior being exact opposites.
“Meanest Stallions in History”
In Canada . Afleets Dancer was known to be evil . Numerous injuries and one very close call !
I don’t know but I saw his amateur owner ride him in a dressage demo last year and he was remarkable . I was also impressed by how well his owner rode him, knowing she was just an ammie and not expecting a lot. I saw no trace of bad behavior.
Edited to add this in reference to the diss on Ravel
[QUOTE=DaniW;7652123]
I don’t know but I saw his amateur owner ride him in a dressage demo last year and he was remarkable . I was also impressed by how well his owner rode him, knowing she was just an ammie and not expecting a lot. I saw no trace of bad behavior.
Edited to add this in reference to the diss on Ravel[/QUOTE]
Ravel was gelded years ago.
