#metoo and Jimmy Williams

[TMares]

@ladyj79

But to stress again, I don’t think there’s a positive way to spin calling child victims of sexual assault junior whores or suggesting they wanted to be molested by an old man for years to win ribbons.

probably can’t blame people for responding negatively to those word choices.

that is pretty much the end of the saga for me. The End.

[ladyj79]

I’m not sure how saying that these girls chased these men and some of them were caught really fully demonstrated comprehension of unwanted sexual advances and assault, particularly that of literal children, or how we are misinterpreting that statement.

I’m not sure how saying her own contemporaries ie people of the Anne Kusinski (who was again a literal child while williams was molesting her, he lost interest as she was an older but still junior rider) generation specifically were using sex to chase ribbons is open to much interpretation.

Again I hope very much that Judy’s apology demonstrates her recognition of how very cruel and insensitive and wrong those words were.

[Bethe_Mounce]

Victim and/or survivor shaming in any form, for me, is abhorrent. I remain hopeful people’s minds can be changed and opened to this subject of sexual assault/sexual abuse. How it happens and why it happens and why no one tells. I know why I didn’t tell, but someone else has a different reason and someone else has another different reason. Telling the story about Jimmy Williams caught some off guard but some already knew what he was capable of and what he did to them. They are now telling…the when someone tells never matters, it’s the courage to actually speak up. Susie H. says she never saw anything; Anne Kursinski is a survivor. I refuse to be the rail bird and judge what happened; but I believe both women. I believe all the women he abused. I believe all the women who have come forward in this forum and told. Nothing the women did or said or how they dressed caused what happened to them. No matter what, Jimmy used his “power” and did what he did. That sickens me. He, as the adult, took advantage of each girl’s stars in her eyes. That sickens me. How an adult man can even think of that is beyond my comprehension. This is a discussion that has to keep happening because someone is reading these comments and realizing what is happening to her and if one perp can be stopped by this thread, then something has been accomplished.

[Mardi]

@TMares

Judy is directly quoted on prior pages. Do not state she didn’t say things she said. They are here on this thread, copied and pasted from FB. They are also still on FB. Go read her words, then focus- again- on some of us victiming wrong. My eyes just can’t roll much harder.

I know exactly what she wrote, and understood it differently than some others who read the same words. When I wrote “That’s not what she said” I didn’t mean it literally (eye roll). I understand your confusion, and see that I should have been more clear in my choice of words.

But, I do not know what “victiming wrong” means.

[Tigoli]

@RugBug

Edited to add: It is in reference to society as a whole, not anyone in particular.

And I find the idea of ‘stating my opinion, let them listen and moving on’ to be at the core of our inability to actually discuss things with people in a civilized fashion. People are no longer interested in really discussing something. They are interested in saying what’s on their mind and F@#$ anyone that disagrees. It’s the echo chamber mindset…and it’s getting us nowhere. For better or worse we’ve become a digital society that has conversations about sensitive topics without ever meeting someone. If we could learn to really listen, we could actually be influential. Instead, we just like to hear ourselves speak and to feel good about ourselves for having the morally superior opinion.

We can hold people accountable for their words, thoughts, and beliefs without writing them off.

Fair point!

I’d like to clarify (understanding that you were approaching this in a general sense) that I do try to discuss topics with people that are open to discussion. But I have definitely seen an alarming disinterest in discussion and varying views lately. I have a few friends that I can’t productively discuss much of anything with any longer and it’s a real bummer. Those are the people that I often calmly and concisely make my opinion known to and move on. It’s best for our continued friendship to not move into the inevitable vitriol an attempt at meaningful discussion creates.

I’d really like to see a change in society where we become a bit more open to discussion. We’d all stand to gain from it.

(And I’m happy to see we’ve been able to sustain this one for a good long while!)

[TMares]

@Mardi

I know exactly what she wrote, and understood it differently than some others who read the same words. When I wrote “That’s not what she said” I didn’t mean it literally (eye roll). I understand your confusion, and see that I should have been more clear in my choice of words.

But, I do not know what “victiming wrong” means.

I apologize for thoroughly misreading your post and misunderstanding it, I mean that.

As for the question:

We’re upset in the wrong way.
We’re responding the wrong way.
We’re writing our feelings the wrong way.
We’re reacting the wrong way.
We’re saying things the wrong way.
We’re ‘victiming’ the wrong way.

I am reminded of a time I was at a football game in college with my older brother. We were standing at the top of the lower section, looking out on the fans and the band streaming into Bryant Denny on a beautiful fall morning in Tuscaloosa. A drunk while female came to the top of the stands on the far side of my brother, leaned over the chain link, and started screaming N******R!!! at the top of her lungs. Stunned, we both stood there a second and after maybe the 4th one? my brother grabbed her shoulder and spun her around and yelled at her to get out of here, and shoved her away from us and down the stairs. She didn’t fall, she was too drunk to fall, and she staggered away and we never saw her again.

Somewhere, someone wants for us to have embraced the drunk. To quietly and respectfully explored her feelings, her motivations, for he and I to be the change we want to see. Maybe now we’d be recording that transformative moment for Storycore. In that moment, what we both wanted was to shun her, to make her go away, it was as reflexive as grabbing a shoe to smash a bug. It was a make-it-stop moment.

That’s how I read Judy, and what I see in many of the FB responses to her- for the love, lady, SHUT UP, stop. Just STOP. Make it Stop. The goal wasn’t changing Judy’s heart, it was shutting Judy’s mouth, and that’s ok, there’s no wrong way to respond. just a million versions of how an individual elects to respond.But I’ll be darned if I’m not seeing a lot of ‘your emoting wrong.’

[betonbill]

I’ve looked over the Facebook comments a couple of times very quickly. Now it occurs to me–where are all the comments by either contemporary MEN of JW, or current male coaches/trainers? Surely as a group they cannot condone JW’s actions, and cannot as a group condone similar things today. Or are they just lying low and hoping it will all go away?

Where were the real men who saw this attention-seeking (or trophy-seeking if you must) behavior and simply said no, and this isn’t appropriate behavior and you (g) don’t need to do this for attention. I’m sure that there were more of them than the JW types–or one would hope.

No matter if it was ignored or silently condoned, this type of behavior simply does not have a place in the horse world. No matter what sort of wonderful reputation a person has with horses or students, this sort of behavior is inexcusable and the person should be permanently forbidden to participate any longer.

[Raymundo]

@betonbill

I’ve looked over the Facebook comments a couple of times very quickly. Now it occurs to me–where are all the comments by either contemporary MEN of JW, or current male coaches/trainers? Surely as a group they cannot condone JW’s actions, and cannot as a group condone similar things today. Or are they just lying low and hoping it will all go away?

Where were the real men who saw this attention-seeking (or trophy-seeking if you must) behavior and simply said no, and this isn’t appropriate behavior and you (g) don’t need to do this for attention. I’m sure that there were more of them than the JW types–or one would hope.

No matter if it was ignored or silently condoned, this type of behavior simply does not have a place in the horse world. No matter what sort of wonderful reputation a person has with horses or students, this sort of behavior is inexcusable and the person should be permanently forbidden to participate any longer.

People in the upper levels of this sport are given a pass for all sorts of bad behavior whether it’s drugging horses, selling horses in shady deals, sexual misconduct and abuse, etc. How many times has a trainer been named on these boards in relation to a despicable event and out come the defenders saying that so and so is an excellent trainer and horseman/woman and the rest of us will never attain such success or be half the horseman/woman that so and so is? A lower level local trainer would never get the hall pass these folks get–not that they should, none of them should.

[SnicklefritzG]

Exactly.

I think that is why the MET turned a blind eye to James Levine’s antics. Would they have put up with that from a junior person? Nope. They needed him way back when. They didn’t dump him until he was in emeritus status and no longer needed. and yes, I have inside info from the MET knowing people who worked there and saw what was going on.

@Raymundo

People in the upper levels of this sport are given a pass for all sorts of bad behavior whether it’s drugging horses, selling horses in shady deals, sexual misconduct and abuse, etc. How many times has a trainer been named on these boards in relation to a despicable event and out come the defenders saying that so and so is an excellent trainer and horseman/woman and the rest of us will never attain such success or be half the horseman/woman that so and so is? A lower level local trainer would never get the hall pass these folks get–not that they should, none of them should.

[Bethe_Mounce]

@betonbill

I’ve looked over the Facebook comments a couple of times very quickly. Now it occurs to me–where are all the comments by either contemporary MEN of JW, or current male coaches/trainers? Surely as a group they cannot condone JW’s actions, and cannot as a group condone similar things today. Or are they just lying low and hoping it will all go away?

Where were the real men who saw this attention-seeking (or trophy-seeking if you must) behavior and simply said no, and this isn’t appropriate behavior and you (g) don’t need to do this for attention. I’m sure that there were more of them than the JW types–or one would hope.

No matter if it was ignored or silently condoned, this type of behavior simply does not have a place in the horse world. No matter what sort of wonderful reputation a person has with horses or students, this sort of behavior is inexcusable and the person should be permanently forbidden to participate any longer.

I have the same questions…where are the comments from current male coaches/trainers? Where are the comments from those male coaches/trainers close to the same era of Jimmy? Perhaps, they’re all busy training/riding/coaching or they don’t do facebook or…who knows what the reason is. Or, are they laying low thinking this will all go away as you mentioned. This won’t go away, might die down, but it won’t go away. I just hope this entire thread reflects to all in this industry that this has happened and it is still happening somewhere in someone’s barn, and please have the courage to report any kind of abuse even if coach is famous. We seem to have this proclivity to stand up and roar when we perceive a horse is being abused…can we please have that same passion for the riders? Just throwing a thought out there…

[Moli]

What I don’t get is the fact that all of the above commentary has to do with sexually accosting young riders as Jimmy Williams obviously did. There must’ve been an entire cast of players at Flintridge didn’t notice that a certain veterinary doctor was injecting horses so that insurance could be cashed. As Penny, Fran, Annie, Ginstons, Alan B. And others could see from the office windows, when horse was no longer profitable and owned by one of the controlling members, it was put down for insurance. This seems to be an on touchable subject here on this thread. I agree, that sexual-harassment is much more important than insurance fraud, however, this existed with Jimmy as in a disproportionate activity, and he profited from it greatly. Before he died, there was a lawsuit over his murder a very famous horse. He died before the resolution of this lawsuit, however, it was evident that he was going to be indicted. Obviously, the powers to be at Flintridge turned a blind eye, is they profited from it as well. Even Livius turned up dead in his stall When he was no longer useful.

[ladyj79]

Murdering horses for money is bad. Sexual harassment is bad. Raping children is so far beyond that from where I’m standing.

[Moli]

Agreed

[fair_judy]

@RugBug

Yes…the person that stepped in to ‘defend’ her I am pretty sure was the same person that on this thread relayed her own story of abuse (fair judy). I could have those comments out of order in my head, though. It’s what made me think twice…

I love your response, not because of your viceral reaction or that you are a survivor, but because it’s the type of response that says ‘here is why your thought process is wrong and hurtful’ without shutting someone down by piling on. THIS is the type of response that makes someone ponder their errors in thinking.

Indeed, it was my comment regarding the “piling” . I completely agree that conversation is productive and necessary. I also know Judy, and while I did push back hard on the COTH Facebook page, I also attempted to keep discussion open.

I would mention that that the fact that I was assaulted doesn’t make my opinion any more valid than any other person’s. My heart can’t just turn off a life long admiration for Ms. Richter, nor can it extinguish all the good she has done. Her words are razors, but not the entirety of her spirit.

[pds]

@Moli

What I don’t get is the fact that all of the above commentary has to do with sexually accosting young riders as Jimmy Williams obviously did. There must’ve been an entire cast of players at Flintridge didn’t notice that a certain veterinary doctor was injecting horses so that insurance could be cashed. As Penny, Fran, Annie, Ginstons, Alan B. And others could see from the office windows, when horse was no longer profitable and owned by one of the controlling members, it was put down for insurance. This seems to be an on touchable subject here on this thread. I agree, that sexual-harassment is much more important than insurance fraud, however, this existed with Jimmy as in a disproportionate activity, and he profited from it greatly. Before he died, there was a lawsuit over his murder a very famous horse. He died before the resolution of this lawsuit, however, it was evident that he was going to be indicted. Obviously, the powers to be at Flintridge turned a blind eye, is they profited from it as well. Even Livius turned up dead in his stall When he was no longer useful.

While killing horses for the insurance money is certainly not as heinous as the crimes of rape, pedophilia and sexual harassment, your comments certainly highlight the fact that there was in all respects, a deep culture of crime and cover-up at Flintridge.

[findeight]

@Moli

What I don’t get is the fact that all of the above commentary has to do with sexually accosting young riders as Jimmy Williams obviously did. There must’ve been an entire cast of players at Flintridge didn’t notice that a certain veterinary doctor was injecting horses so that insurance could be cashed. As Penny, Fran, Annie, Ginstons, Alan B. And others could see from the office windows, when horse was no longer profitable and owned by one of the controlling members, it was put down for insurance. This seems to be an on touchable subject here on this thread. I agree, that sexual-harassment is much more important than insurance fraud, however, this existed with Jimmy as in a disproportionate activity, and he profited from it greatly. Before he died, there was a lawsuit over his murder a very famous horse. He died before the resolution of this lawsuit, however, it was evident that he was going to be indicted. Obviously, the powers to be at Flintridge turned a blind eye, is they profited from it as well. Even Livius turned up dead in his stall When he was no longer useful.

Not sure of the dates on this meshing with when many of those well known riders who have come forward were molested. Think that got popular 15 or so years later in the 80s when Equine insurance became more popular with the masses and it sure wasn’t just at Flintridge. Not defending them at all…and I will never believe at least some of those owners anywhere across the country were not complicit in the Sandman’s visit to their horse. Or bought their trainer some ping pong balls or sponges.

But that pales against child molestation and it’s lasting devastation.

[fair_judy]

@Raymundo

People in the upper levels of this sport are given a pass for all sorts of bad behavior whether it’s drugging horses, selling horses in shady deals, sexual misconduct and abuse, etc. How many times has a trainer been named on these boards in relation to a despicable event and out come the defenders saying that so and so is an excellent trainer and horseman/woman and the rest of us will never attain such success or be half the horseman/woman that so and so is? A lower level local trainer would never get the hall pass these folks get–not that they should, none of them should.

One of the individuals who was there at Flintridge was Mason Phelps…who knowingly employed a convicted sex offender FOR YEARS. Ken Krauss worked the tower at WEF and had free range to every child on the property. How does Phelps show his face, much less continue to be a force in the industry?

[findeight]

Never been my favorite even as a young person, but they do get comfortable in their ivory towers hiding behind their wealth and the USEs inability to act as a law enforcement agency or make anything they do have authority to enforce stick. About big money to buy their way out of anything.

All we can do is throw light on it, knowledge is power, and that’s the good thing about social media.

[Mardi]

@Moli

. Before he died, there was a lawsuit over his murder a very famous horse. He died before the resolution of this lawsuit, however, it was evident that he was going to be indicted.

Who was the plaintiff in the civil lawsuit ? Name of horse ? If JW was going to be indicted, that would mean a criminal case- a felony charge brought by public prosecutor- was going on as well. Is that what you’re saying ?

Just trying to pin down some facts.

[findeight]

@Mardi

Who was the plaintiff in the civil lawsuit ? Name of horse ? If JW was going to be indicted, that would mean a criminal case- a felony charge brought by public prosecutor- was going on as well. Is that what you’re saying ?

Just trying to pin down some facts.

Good question…it would have been in LA County, slight possibility Pasadena would have taken it on, mid to late 1980s if somebody wants to dig. I was unaware, it wasn’t general barn gossip or would have gotten a sniff of something like that. We always heard about the scandalous allegations, this would certainly have met that standard.