Michael Barisone/Lauren Kanarek Civil Suit

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BatCoach

Finally got all caught up. EGADS absolutely nothing should shock me but the pearl-clutching condescension of Mama Kanarek made me wonder if it was April 1 rather than March 1.

No family is perfect, but if KK and JK were my parents, I’d be running away to join the circus. She rants and raves about how we are a bunch of meanies who are “harrasing her family,” then goes on to call her own (adult) child mutilated since she needed to have a breast implant replaced.

KK can keep her prayers - she needs them for herself.

I thought she said that it wasn’t just that the implant that was damaged, but that the natural breast was damaged.

Seeker1 didn’t use the word “damaged.” You are inserting that word.

Here is what @Seeker1 actually said, my questioning, and her response.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Seeker1

Lauren had to have one breast removed during the surgery to sew her up after michael shot her in the chest. They also had to cut her open to let her organs function due to the fact that they had to replace over 5o% of her blood with “blood products” that made her organs swell to the point of non functioning until they slit her open and put her in medically induced coma. That was in the doctors report. I sat with her in the hospital while she hung onto her life by a thread. How would u feel if this were your daughter and u watched people on this forum lauding the man who did this?

Did she have her actual breast removed? Or did she have her breast implant removed on one side… and then later have the breast implant replaced? Or both replaced later, for symmetry?

There is a significant difference between losing a breast, vs a breast implant.

@Seeker1

yes her whole breast was removed.

Note… it is possible that @Seeker1 was deliberately obfuscating and conflating the removal of an entire breast implant with a mastectomy (removal of the actual breast) with her answer… and ignoring how specific my question was. But… I took her reply at face value, apologized for accusing her of exaggerating, and asked a follow up question…

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Seeker1

yes her whole breast was removed

Okay. I apologize for accusing you of exaggerating then.

That’s significant.

What sort of reconstruction process did she undergo?

@seeker1 got quite defensive at this point

@Seeker1

What do you care VHM? All you will do with any information I give you is try to hurt my family and me more.

I replied and tried again to see if she would respond with any SPECIFIC information that spoke to her claim that Lauren lost her breast

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I have been through multiple reconstruction processes due to cancer. I know a thing or two about how it can impact riding. I’m curious as to your daughter’s experiences.

But… @Seeker1 dropped it.

Multiple people commented at that point that the actual surgeon who testified during the criminal trial testified that the implant was removed… but mentioned NOTHING about performing a mastectomy.

Soooo… we will all have to wait and see if @Seeker1 chooses to pop back into the discussion and clarify… again… whether she is claiming Lauren actually lost her breast and had a mastectomy… or is the claim actually related to the implant. The surgical differences between the two? They are quite significant. The civil case speaks to harm, pain and suffering, long term impact, etc. Facts and details matter when making these sorts of medical claims when involved in civil litigation like this.

I think Seeker1 probably doesn’t think she owes you any details to satisfy your curiosity, given the nature of your posting about LK and her family.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks.

It also goes to pain and suffering. And… long term limitations with respect to athletic ability. DIEP flap reconstruction involves a surgery that cuts abdominal muscles and significantly reduces abdominal strength. I had it… I still ride and can sit the trot… but it’s very different than it was pre-DIEP Flap. I also had reconstruction involving tissue expanders, before DIEP flap. One side failed… hence the extra reconstruction surgery later. Ugggh. Anyway… tissue expanders involve detaching the pectoralis major muscle from the chest wall, sliding the expanders in, then using surgical mesh to reattach the muscle to chest wall, but create a hammock underneath the medical device in the process. Then… over a period of multiple weeks, surgeons use a needle to fill the expanders via ports, and slowly stretch the pectoralis major muscles in the process. This creates space for an eventual implant. It is a very uncomfortable, multi step process. Some people suffer complications for a number of reasons. Eventually, once enough expansion has been achieved, another surgery is done, and the expanders are removed, and actual breast implants are placed where they used to be.

I have lasting weakness in my chest now, because of the way the surgery impacted my pectoral muscles. it definitely impacts my posture. I must use other muscles in a very deliberate way now to maintain a decent position when riding. I still manage to ride… and even jump… but again… it’s all different than it was before this surgery.

Anyways… if LK really did have a full mastectomy and some sort of reconstruction involving cutting into
major muscles… it will be relevant to her lawsuit. There are lasting impacts. Not to mention emotional pain and suffering from losing an actual breast. If, however, what we are actually talking about was an implant being damaged during the shooting, removed during the emergency surgery, and later replaced after a period of healing… that is a VERY different thing. LK would still have full strength with respect to her abdominal muscles, and not have the same weakness in her pectoralis major muscles as others who have tissue expander reconstruction deal with.

I’m not harping on this to minimize the fact that she was clearly shot and nearly died. But… the type of injuries and surgery involved? It will have different long term impacts on subsequent athletic capability.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I think Seeker1 probably doesn’t think she owes you any details to satisfy your curiosity, given the nature of your posting about LK and her family.

She doesn’t owe me any details.

But… she made a claim. I, along with multiple other people, have challenged the claim.

She now has backed down.

If her daughter really lost a breast and went through a full reconstruction… no way would Seeker1 have backed down about her claim.

This is very basic.

If she doesn’t want people to say tough things about her and her family… then maybe they should stop routinely lying on social media. People tend to notice that sort of thing, and respond harshly.

[omare]

Well, the sentence at issue could be read MB is not liable because he was incompetent at the time (and all the reasons why really do not matter) . There is legal support for not holding an insane person legally responsible in civil court, if intent was needed for the action and he could not form the necessary intent. However, the meaning of intent in the civil vs criminal context (if there is any difference), I find confusing.

[BigMama1]

@MHM

Especially after word of the very extensive family arrest records came out following MB’s background check on them.

I wonder if it will now become SOP in some trainer circles to run criminal background checks on prospective clients before taking them on? Maybe that’s the real reason behind KK’s claims that no reputable trainer would take LK on.

I found that choice of word interesting, and wonder if the reason LK didn’t move to the nearby trainer who did agree to take her is that she didn’t believe him to be “reputable.”

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Why is LKs provocation relevant, aside from establishing MBs insanity?

Two words: contributory negligence

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@BatCoach

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BatCoach

Finally got all caught up. EGADS absolutely nothing should shock me but the pearl-clutching condescension of Mama Kanarek made me wonder if it was April 1 rather than March 1.

No family is perfect, but if KK and JK were my parents, I’d be running away to join the circus. She rants and raves about how we are a bunch of meanies who are “harrasing her family,” then goes on to call her own (adult) child mutilated since she needed to have a breast implant replaced.

KK can keep her prayers - she needs them for herself.

I thought she said that it wasn’t just that the implant that was damaged, but that the natural breast was damaged.

While KK does like to claim that LK’s “whole breast was removed” the surgeon never testified to it. I tend to believe him and think that KK is referring to the implant as LK’s “whole breast” and is grossly over-exaggerating in a misguided attempt to manufacture sympathy.

As @Virginia_Horse_Mom and others have bravely pointed out, breast reconstruction is much more difficult and complex than getting in implant. So for KK to imply that having to have a breast implant replaced is on the same tier as enduring a mastectomy and rebuild is really an insult to breast cancer survivors.

Aren’t breast implants placed under the natural breast? How could two bullets go through the breast implant and into her lungs without going through and damaging the natural breast enough to require reconstruction?

VHM is “brave” to question Seeker about whether it was “just”
the implant or the natural breast that was removed? This is a matter of curiosity to one of LKs anonymous harassers, and VHM expects to get the exact, rather personal details from LKs mother?

[trubandloki]

@ekat

I. Give. Up. You are purposely misinterpreting that sentence. We do not agree. You are wrong. I am done.

In case you wondered, I totally get what you are trying to say. You are very clearly explaining it. Anyone who wants to understand what you have explained, more than once, can understand it.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

I think Seeker1 probably doesn’t think she owes you any details to satisfy your curiosity, given the nature of your posting about LK and her family.

She doesn’t owe me any details.

But… she made a claim. I, along with multiple other people, have challenged the claim.

She now has backed down.

If her daughter really lost a breast and went through a full reconstruction… no way would Seeker1 have backed down about her claim.

This is very basic.

If she doesn’t want people to say tough things about her and her family… then maybe they should stop routinely lying on social media. People tend to notice that sort of thing, and respond harshly.

I think she probably stopped responding to you out of disgust.

[eggbutt]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I think she probably stopped responding to you out of disgust.

Something you should be quite familiar with.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@omare

Well, the sentence at issue could be read MB is not liable because he was incompetent at the time (and all the reasons why really do not matter) . There is legal support for not holding an insane person legally responsible in civil court, if intent was needed for the action and he could not form the necessary intent. However, the meaning of intent in the civil vs criminal context (if there is any difference), I find confusing.

I agree with you that Deininger was arguing as a defense that MB was not liable because he was not mentally competent at the time.

I did not see a claim that LK “caused” his insanity.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Aren’t breast implants placed under the natural breast? How could two bullets go through the breast implant and into her lungs without going through and damaging the natural breast enough to require reconstruction?

Of course bullets could have gone through her breast, then implant and into her lungs.

That would create a wound. Which might eventually heal, with a scar.

That is different than actually removing the entire breast.

Do you think it’s accurate and honest to conflate those two very different things? Removal of a breast is an amputation of part of the body. It either happened… or it didn’t.

[cutter99]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Ghazzu

@CurrentlyHorseless

How would you know if I am “purposely misinterpreting that sentence”?

Since the other simple explanation is that you have lousy reading comprehension skills, I d recommend the “purposely”.

Many posters have said I lack reading comprehension skills and/or obtuse.

So you’re going to generously defend me by saying it’s more likely that I’m dishonest rather than lacking in reading comprehension?

No thanks.

I’ve explained my interpretation of that sentence. Deininger may well have been trying to imply that LK caused MBs insanity, but that’s not what he said.

Suppose @ekat is correct and Deininger is going to try to prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity. Given that there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, do you imagine that it is remotely conceivable that the defense could successfully prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity? If it’s not something you have any chance of probing, why offer it as a defense?

Do psychiatrists think they know what causes insanity in any random case?

You can’t have it both ways. If you assert the criminal finding was that he did shoot LK but was insane as per NGRI then you cannot also assert that “there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK”.

Here’s what I meant.

On the relatively simple question of whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, the jury required several hours of psychiatric testimony to be replayed for them, and deliberated for hours before deciding that by a preponderance of the evidence (that is more likely than not) he was insane.

The jury clearly found that MB was insane, to the standard of by a preponderance of the evidence.

Question: How do you know what the jury deliberated about???

Answer: You don’t!!!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I think she probably stopped responding to you out of disgust.

I think she was called out on a lie, she knew it, and so she chose to stop engaging and moved on to different lines of argument, and decided to pretend she didn’t lie.

You know what I find interesting? How determined you are to defend and make excuses for a liar. That’s an interesting personal choice.

To each their own.

[cutter99]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BatCoach

Finally got all caught up. EGADS absolutely nothing should shock me but the pearl-clutching condescension of Mama Kanarek made me wonder if it was April 1 rather than March 1.

No family is perfect, but if KK and JK were my parents, I’d be running away to join the circus. She rants and raves about how we are a bunch of meanies who are “harrasing her family,” then goes on to call her own (adult) child mutilated since she needed to have a breast implant replaced.

KK can keep her prayers - she needs them for herself.

I thought she said that it wasn’t just that the implant that was damaged, but that the natural breast was damaged.

Seeker1 didn’t use the word “damaged.” You are inserting that word.

Here is what @Seeker1 actually said, my questioning, and her response.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Seeker1

Lauren had to have one breast removed during the surgery to sew her up after michael shot her in the chest. They also had to cut her open to let her organs function due to the fact that they had to replace over 5o% of her blood with “blood products” that made her organs swell to the point of non functioning until they slit her open and put her in medically induced coma. That was in the doctors report. I sat with her in the hospital while she hung onto her life by a thread. How would u feel if this were your daughter and u watched people on this forum lauding the man who did this?

Did she have her actual breast removed? Or did she have her breast implant removed on one side… and then later have the breast implant replaced? Or both replaced later, for symmetry?

There is a significant difference between losing a breast, vs a breast implant.

@Seeker1

yes her whole breast was removed.

Note… it is possible that @Seeker1 was deliberately obfuscating and conflating the removal of an entire breast implant with a mastectomy (removal of the actual breast) with her answer… and ignoring how specific my question was. But… I took her reply at face value, apologized for accusing her of exaggerating, and asked a follow up question…

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Seeker1

yes her whole breast was removed

Okay. I apologize for accusing you of exaggerating then.

That’s significant.

What sort of reconstruction process did she undergo?

@seeker1 got quite defensive at this point

@Seeker1

What do you care VHM? All you will do with any information I give you is try to hurt my family and me more.

I replied and tried again to see if she would respond with any SPECIFIC information that spoke to her claim that Lauren lost her breast

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I have been through multiple reconstruction processes due to cancer. I know a thing or two about how it can impact riding. I’m curious as to your daughter’s experiences.

But… @Seeker1 dropped it.

Multiple people commented at that point that the actual surgeon who testified during the criminal trial testified that the implant was removed… but mentioned NOTHING about performing a mastectomy.

Soooo… we will all have to wait and see if @Seeker1 chooses to pop back into the discussion and clarify… again… whether she is claiming Lauren actually lost her breast and had a mastectomy… or is the claim actually related to the implant. The surgical differences between the two? They are quite significant. The civil case speaks to harm, pain and suffering, long term impact, etc. Facts and details matter when making these sorts of medical claims when involved in civil litigation like this.

I think Seeker1 probably doesn’t think she owes you any details to satisfy your curiosity, given the nature of your posting about LK and her family.

You seem to have missed the fact that @Seeker1 produced the supposed fact that LK had a breast removed, otherwise known as a mastectomy. The surgeon did not testify to this in court.

If this is an intentional misrepresentation on the part of @Seeker1, as an attempt to gain empathy for LK, it is disgusting and will never help LK. It is disrespectful to the many who have has mastectomies and suffered through that as well as other treatments for cancer.

Mastectomy in no way equals ruptured breast implant!

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@cutter99

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Ghazzu

@CurrentlyHorseless

How would you know if I am “purposely misinterpreting that sentence”?

Since the other simple explanation is that you have lousy reading comprehension skills, I d recommend the “purposely”.

Many posters have said I lack reading comprehension skills and/or obtuse.

So you’re going to generously defend me by saying it’s more likely that I’m dishonest rather than lacking in reading comprehension?

No thanks.

I’ve explained my interpretation of that sentence. Deininger may well have been trying to imply that LK caused MBs insanity, but that’s not what he said.

Suppose @ekat is correct and Deininger is going to try to prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity. Given that there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, do you imagine that it is remotely conceivable that the defense could successfully prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity? If it’s not something you have any chance of probing, why offer it as a defense?

Do psychiatrists think they know what causes insanity in any random case?

You can’t have it both ways. If you assert the criminal finding was that he did shoot LK but was insane as per NGRI then you cannot also assert that “there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK”.

Here’s what I meant.

On the relatively simple question of whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, the jury required several hours of psychiatric testimony to be replayed for them, and deliberated for hours before deciding that by a preponderance of the evidence (that is more likely than not) he was insane.

The jury clearly found that MB was insane, to the standard of by a preponderance of the evidence.

Question: How do you know what the jury deliberated about???

Answer: You don’t!!!

Yeah, I do, based on the flow chart provided in Taylor’s instructions to the jury.

The deliberations before the jury asked to hear the psychiatric testimony replayed was on the issue of actus reus. The deliberations after were on the issue of insanity.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Oh happy day. We are back to this whole tired line of argument.

[BatCoach]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Aren’t breast implants placed under the natural breast? How could two bullets go through the breast implant and into her lungs without going through and damaging the natural breast enough to require reconstruction?

VHM is “brave” to question Seeker about whether it was “just”
the implant or the natural breast that was removed? This is a matter of curiosity to one of LKs anonymous harassers, and VHM expects to get the exact, rather personal details from LKs mother?

@Virginia_Horse_Mom is brave to recount her experience with total breast reconstruction and explain in detail the difference between elective breast augmentation and rebuilding after an amputation. I never said anything about her questioning @Seeker1 - that is ALL YOU.

Maybe Seeker shouldn’t make audacious and fake claims here if she does not expect to be questioned on them? Since you bring up VHM’s line of questioning, I feel that it was done in good faith to try to understand what Seeker was trying to say - even giving Seeker the benefit of the doubt.

You are picking a wierd battle here. Its clear that your medical experience is on par with your legal experience.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Ghazzu

@CurrentlyHorseless

How would you know if I am “purposely misinterpreting that sentence”?

Since the other simple explanation is that you have lousy reading comprehension skills, I d recommend the “purposely”.

Many posters have said I lack reading comprehension skills and/or obtuse.

So you’re going to generously defend me by saying it’s more likely that I’m dishonest rather than lacking in reading comprehension?

No thanks.

I’ve explained my interpretation of that sentence. Deininger may well have been trying to imply that LK caused MBs insanity, but that’s not what he said.

Suppose @ekat is correct and Deininger is going to try to prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity. Given that there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, do you imagine that it is remotely conceivable that the defense could successfully prove that LK “caused” MBs insanity? If it’s not something you have any chance of probing, why offer it as a defense?

Do psychiatrists think they know what causes insanity in any random case?

You can’t have it both ways. If you assert the criminal finding was that he did shoot LK but was insane as per NGRI then you cannot also assert that “there was considerable uncertainty in the criminal trial on the relatively simple question as to whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK”.

Here’s what I meant.

On the relatively simple question of whether MB was or wasn’t insane when he shot LK, the jury required several hours of psychiatric testimony to be replayed for them, and deliberated for hours before deciding that by a preponderance of the evidence (that is more likely than not) he was insane.

The jury clearly found that MB was insane, to the standard of by a preponderance of the evidence.

So then your statement meant nothing.

Got it.

[BatCoach]

@cutter99

You seem to have missed the fact that @Seeker1 produced the supposed fact that LK had a breast removed, otherwise known as a mastectomy. The surgeon did not testify to this in court.

If this is an intentional misrepresentation on the part of @Seeker1, as an attempt to gain empathy for LK, it is disgusting and will never help LK. It is disrespectful to the many who have has mastectomies and suffered through that as well as other treatments for cancer.

Mastectomy in no way equals ruptured breast implant!

Thank you! You have said this much better than I did.