Michael/ Lauren civil trial update February 9

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@LilRanger

While it’s tempting to assume insurance is a reason to award something to lk, since insurance money is “free” in that it’s from a faceless company, is far from being a sure thing.
Was mb an insured? Since the case has stalled at discovery,we can’t know. Once discovery happens, these questions can be answered, until then, it’s anyone’s guess. But insurance companies are pretty dang savvy, and spectacularly good at getting out of responsibility…

I agree. I suspect Silver was hired by the insurance company providing liability insurance for SGF, and he’s the most impressive lawyer so far.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

That’s an impressive effort to shift the narrative, and reframe all the background context to make it seem like MB is a manipulative sociopath, LO a victim of some sort, and anyone donating to the GFM for legal expenses is a gullible patsy.

Your whole post is well written.

I would just add, I still find it odd that LK didn’t name Michael Barisone Dressage, LLC as a defendant. You know, the entity that would have carried his liability insurance,

Also, wow - I’m not sure how anyone knows so much about LO’s personal life, personal and business decisions. I tend to take her at her word at beginning of the GFM where she states exactly why she started the thing. That doesn’t really sound like MB sent her out to beg.

Also, while we’re throwing out stuff like she sold her farm, etc… we should also mention that she obviously did, in fact, have a personal relationship with MB before the shooting. Friendships, etc…count as personal relationships. Her kid was one of MB’s working students, and testified in the trial. I think that’s significant and an indication LO just might have more insight into MB and what she’s doing than she’s given credit for here.

Whether or not he’s got insurance paying for the civil suit doesn’t address the overwhelming costs of the criminal trial that are still ongoing. He’s got another hearing in five weeks. Mr Bilinkas isn’t appearing at that for free.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

As for MB “allowing crazy to occur over a period of weeks/months” … that’s an interesting statement. Don’t you think LK should be responsible for some of her own poor choices? I do. Just because she chooses to engage in high risk behavior, and bad things happen, doesn’t mean she is automatically entitled to some of financial compensation. It MAY have played out that way in prior “life situations” she found herself in… that’s just a guess on my part… but in this situation, there is the issue of her crazy actions contributing to the entire situation that eventually ended in a shooting. And that’s a problem. So… insurance or no insurance, I think LKs payday will be limited at best.

This is very well said. Saying MB was “allowing crazy to occur” is an interesting choice of words. I guess we will see how that plays out with the defenses and counterclaims MB has laid out thus far in the civil suit.

[I_dratherbe]

@CurrentlyHorseless

SGF is one of the defendants. If SGF has liability insurance, then the insurance company is on the hook to pay any judgement against SGF if SGF is found liable in the trial.

Only if the policy covers SGF’s liability. We don’t know what the policy, if there is one, covers, and what exclusions may apply.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Huh.

Round and round we go this morning, with a focus on SGFs insurance, and whether it exists, and will LK get paid something from it…

Frankly, it comes across as slightly desperate on the part of Lollypop’s camp. Is there a financial issue she’s struggling with now? Are the funds not quite as unlimited as she represented? Was she counting on a civil suit payment or insurance settlement in order to continue funding all her horses in Florida? What will Lolly do if $$$$$ from her shooting never materialize? Will she have to downsize and sell a horse or two? Will she have to settle for training with assistants whose names are not on the door?

Legal cases that drag on and on can be very pricey for everyone involved. The good news is that the horse market is still pretty strong in the US. I bet if she put “Evie” (?) on the market, the horse would sell quickly for a good price. It seems like a nice quality, ammy friendly horse.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thank you Ekat. That’s high praise coming from you.

A thought crossed my mind earlier upon reading the latest greatest narrative shift attempt…

I wonder if team Lollypop is paying another attorney or similarly qualified professional behind the scenes to help “massage” the public narrative around the case? Some things make me wonder if that is the case.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Round and round we go this morning, with a focus on SGFs insurance, and whether it exists, and will LK get paid something from it…

Frankly, it comes across as slightly desperate on the part of Lollypop’s camp.

It probably has to do with how SGF already offered “something” and a settlement couldn’t be reached. SGF has been very upfront in their filings that they will move to be dismissed. Once that happens, there goes the $$$.

[Knights_Mom]

@SierraMist

@iberianfan

Bottom line is, under NJ law as cited above,the jury will not learn if SGF has insurance.

Never say never. There are exceptions to the rule: “…this rule does not require the exclusion of evidence of insurance against liability when offered for another purpose, such as proof of agency, ownership, control, bias, or prejudice of a witness.” Although I agree that generally the rule is to prevent attorneys from informing juries about whether or not the parties have insurance coverage. The rule also applies in that the defense can’t inform that the victim has medical insurance coverage or financial means to cover their injuries.

My personal curiosity about MB’s insurance coverage is whether or not, as a professional, he even carried any insurance. He has shown, through the evidence at the criminal trial and some beginning to come out in this civil case, that he lacked in professional and business conduct. For instance, crude leases, verbal contracts, bartering. It’s possible he didn’t even bother to carry professional liability and the only insurance available is general liability through SGF.

And if he does have insurance coverage and the insurance company is allowing his criminal attorneys to represent him in the civil matter for which his insurance will pay the attorney fees, then why is MB having Lara Osborn beg for money for attorney fees? I think gofundme and other crowd sourcing to raise funds can be so helpful for many people in dire situations, but it’s a little offensive to me when someone who many people claim was a brilliant businessman worth millions of dollars is begging for money to fund his lifestyle and pay his attorney fees and costs for a legal matter that he is responsible for (or at least responsible for in part) - i.e. allowing crazy to occur over a period of weeks/months and then he ends up shooting LK. It would appear that MB wants other people to fork out their hard earned money rather than MB using his own funds or liquidating some assets to fund his legal woes.

I also feel a little sorry for LO as it’s possible she’s been manipulated to take care of MB and all his issues, take care of his farm in his absence, pay all his bills, etc. She even mentioned that she is paying for things out of her own funds. She sold her farm in order to move into MB’s farm and manage it while trying to keep her own business afloat. She didn’t have a prior personal relationship with MB. That only developed while he was in jail. So many gullible women have fallen for some guy in jail or prison and end up losing everything they have taking care of some other guy’s problems. It’s a psychological phenomenon featured in books, tv interviews and documentaries - why some women are attracted to men behind bars.

If MB has insurance, he should be grateful for the NGRI verdict as that is the only way any insurance coverage will pay in a settlement or verdict. Otherwise the insurance companies could flat out deny any coverage at all. Some insurance companies have tried to exclude coverage in NGRI cases, but case law has seen reversal on appeal. NGRI will allow insurance coverage but NGRI will not allow a disregard for liability to a victim as case law has shown in the past.

Suddenly, as if by magic, they’re a lawyer. I’M not convinced.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@trubandloki

@CurrentlyHorseless

@BigMama1

@CurrentlyHorseless

The issue is whether he’s being paid by a deep pockets insurance company and whether the jury will learn of the existence of liability insurance.

This sounds like wishful thinking on the part of the Kanarek clan and nothing more.

People with actual legal knowledge have told you the question of insurance is not relevant to the facts of the case, and therefore is not likely to come out at trial. Why do you choose to believe your own wild, uneducated guesses instead?

Actually, my point is a more general one.

If the brilliant Mr Silver succeeds in getting SGF excused from
the case by summary judgement, so that there are just two defendants, MB and RC, I think that all three remaining parties (MB, RC, and LK) are in a worse situation.

To the extent you (g) are supportive of MB, it’s surprising to me that people seem to be rooting for SGF to be excused from the case.

Your point, @CurrentlyHorseless, is based on you not reading what people are saying correctly.

Mr. Silver is brilliant, his writings are brilliant, and bonus, he bases his writings on facts. Real things.
Not imaginary made up twisted things. Not movies in his head.
In my opinion, the reason people here support Mr. Silver is because of that. Not the reason you have decided to spread about. Mr. Silver is trying to bring out the facts of what really happened at SGF.

I would think that even you, @CurrentlyHorseless, would understand why people are supportive of the actual facts coming out. I would think that you, @CurrentlyHorseless, would also find it difficult to understand why Jonathan Kanarek (@Inigo-montoya) seems to not want those facts to come out. This lawyer is not asking for something that might exist. This lawyer is asking for something that does exist, that he has proof exists. That he has proof was given to Jonathan Kanarek and discussed with Jonathan Kanarek. Facts that are associated with what was going on there.

OK. I thought the mob was specifically trying to be supportive of MB and thought that the SGF lawyer trying to establish his case that it was MB, and not SGF who permitted LK to reside there works counter to the interests of MB.

Mr Silver succeeding in getting SGF excused from the case works counter to the interests of MB.

But if you’re just rooting for the most effective lawyer, I understand your admiration of Silver. I also think he’s impressive.

[SierraMist]

@Sdel

@SierraMist

He has shown, through the evidence at the criminal trial and some beginning to come out in this civil case, that he lacked in professional and business conduct. For instance, crude leases, verbal contracts, bartering. It’s possible he didn’t even bother to carry professional liability and the only insurance available is general liability through SGF.

This would be in direct contradiction to testimony of Steven Tarshis and other evidence. Besides, shouldn’t LK already know? She was the one going through MB’s office, and one assumes, his financial documents that were stored there while she was looking for a way to forge his signature.

If MB and other defendants have answered interrogatories, then LK’s attorneys already know whether or not he has insurance or if any of the other defendants have insurance. That’s generally one of questions in a first set of interrogatories. We may never know.

Yes, I believe it’s a lack of professionalism and good business practice for someone in the industry for decades if he didn’t carry any liability insurance. It’s actually stupid not to.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@I_dratherbe

@CurrentlyHorseless

SGF is one of the defendants. If SGF has liability insurance, then the insurance company is on the hook to pay any judgement against SGF if SGF is found liable in the trial.

Only if the policy covers SGF’s liability. We don’t know what the policy, if there is one, covers, and what exclusions may apply.

I agree. But I would be shocked if the owner of a multimillion dollar property used as a commercial horse farm did not have liability insurance.

[eggbutt]

@SierraMist

I also feel a little sorry for LO as it’s possible she’s been manipulated to take care of MB and all his issues, take care of his farm in his absence, pay all his bills, etc. She even mentioned that she is paying for things out of her own funds. She sold her farm in order to move into MB’s farm and manage it while trying to keep her own business afloat. She didn’t have a prior personal relationship with MB. That only developed while he was in jail. So many gullible women have fallen for some guy in jail or prison and end up losing everything they have taking care of some other guy’s problems. It’s a psychological phenomenon featured in books, tv interviews and documentaries - why some women are attracted to men behind bars.

Hmmmm, I guess you don’t know LO, at all. What an interesting post…baiting much?!

My, my.

[Sdel]

@SierraMist

If MB and other defendants have answered interrogatories, then LK’s attorneys already know whether or not he has insurance or if any of the other defendants have insurance. That’s generally one of questions in a first set of interrogatories. We may never know.

Look at that…we’ll only “never know” if they did the right thing and answered their discovery and didn’t force the judge to compel their answers.

My, my, funny how that discovery stuff works……

@CurrentlyHorseless @Inigo-montoya @Seeker1

See how that works?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Frankly, it comes across as slightly desperate on the part of Lollypop’s camp. Is there a financial issue she’s struggling with now?

Huh?

It’s a civil suit seeking a monetary award for damages based on her bring shot and nearly killed by MB on Aug 7, 2019.

And you find it surprising that people are talking about the size of the potential award and which of the defendants will pay it?

[iberianfan]

As I said, in my part of the world, insurance, the existence of lack thereof, is not discoverable. Those questions may be asked but will not be answered. I highly doubt SGF, MB or RC, answered such questions and would not unless ordered to by a judge. In that case, they would first have to prove one of the exceptions.

All kinds of questions are put into interrogatories that don’t get answered: subject to priviledge, overly broad, seeking info not allowed by statute…Never hurts to ask.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

A thought crossed my mind earlier upon reading the latest greatest narrative shift attempt…

I wonder if team Lollypop is paying another attorney or similarly qualified professional behind the scenes to help “massage” the public narrative around the case? Some things make me wonder if that is the case.

A thought just crossed my mind…does LK have any personal insurance like an umbrella policy that is covering her defense against MB’s claims, especially that wiretapping one? Since were throwing out insurance today…

[iberianfan]

One more small point: MB had insurance on the house through some means as he was not the homeowner. So, to assume he had no other insurance is disingenuous.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

So much insurance money chatter today.

It really is so incredibly desperate sounding.

Don’t the Kanareks’ have unlimited means? If so, why are they so hungry for this payout from an insurance policy?

As for MBs alleged lack of professionalism, some bartering, and less than thoroughly airtight contracts are par for the course at every level of the equine industry. He was more professional and better than most. And he had a superb personal reputation.

But enough about questioning MBs professionalism. What about JK and LKs professionalism? Where are all the character witnesses on their behalf right now? You know… people who have worked with them personally and professionally for years, who are willing to step up right now, and speak on their behalf about their good character.

I don’t seem to be seeing any of these people materializing. Oh well. Maybe they will show up if this thing ever goes to trial. Kinda like people showing up for MB.

Oh… and about professionalism. What industry/profession did JK and LK work in for the last decade or so, that educated them on how business contracts should be written and handled? Care to name actual firms/companies either were employed by?

Anyways… carry on scrutinizing MB if you like. But perhaps it’s wise to consider that turnabout is fair play.

[eggbutt]

I am intrigued at the sudden mention, derogatory at that, of LO! Next @SierraMist will accuse LO of hybristophilia!

Desperation has a particular aroma. I wonder what part Michael’s dog might be thrown out next?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

It all reeks of desperation.

It’s fascinating.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@ekat

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

That’s an impressive effort to shift the narrative, and reframe all the background context to make it seem like MB is a manipulative sociopath, LO a victim of some sort, and anyone donating to the GFM for legal expenses is a gullible patsy.

Your whole post is well written.

I would just add, I still find it odd that LK didn’t name Michael Barisone Dressage, LLC as a defendant. You know, the entity that would have carried his liability insurance,

Also, wow - I’m not sure how anyone knows so much about LO’s personal life, personal and business decisions. I tend to take her at her word at beginning of the GFM where she states exactly why she started the thing. That doesn’t really sound like MB sent her out to beg.

Also, while we’re throwing out stuff like she sold her farm, etc… we should also mention that she obviously did, in fact, have a personal relationship with MB before the shooting. Friendships, etc…count as personal relationships. Her kid was one of MB’s working students, and testified in the trial. I think that’s significant and an indication LO just might have more insight into MB and what she’s doing than she’s given credit for here.

Whether or not he’s got insurance paying for the civil suit doesn’t address the overwhelming costs of the criminal trial that are still ongoing. He’s got another hearing in five weeks. Mr Bilinkas isn’t appearing at that for free.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

As for MB “allowing crazy to occur over a period of weeks/months” … that’s an interesting statement. Don’t you think LK should be responsible for some of her own poor choices? I do. Just because she chooses to engage in high risk behavior, and bad things happen, doesn’t mean she is automatically entitled to some of financial compensation. It MAY have played out that way in prior “life situations” she found herself in… that’s just a guess on my part… but in this situation, there is the issue of her crazy actions contributing to the entire situation that eventually ended in a shooting. And that’s a problem. So… insurance or no insurance, I think LKs payday will be limited at best.

This is very well said. Saying MB was “allowing crazy to occur” is an interesting choice of words. I guess we will see how that plays out with the defenses and counterclaims MB has laid out thus far in the civil suit.

Why would liability insurance through MBD, if there was any, come into play given that his shooting her was not part of his training program?

It seems personal liability, not professional liability, is what matters.