Michael/ Lauren civil trial update February 9

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@erinmeri

@CurrentlyHorseless

I’m wondering why @LiberalSnowflake decided to respond to a simple post of mine from two days ago.

My reading comprehension is fine.

Here’s what I don’t understand:

In her post, Lara Osborne points out again that the state forensic psychiatrists continue to say MB is sane and does not suffer from mental illness. That’s what they contended during the trial.

Simring stated during the Kroll hearing that MB continues to suffer from delusional thinking (insanity) and needs intensive therapy. His preference is that the intensive individual therapy be delivered in an out patient setting.

Both sides, state and defense, are keeping their positions on MB s sanity consistent with their position at the trial. State: he’s sane. Defense: he’s insane.

Simring did not persuasively say during the trial that MB was insane on Aug 7, 2019, then claim at the Krol hearing that MB was sane in August of 2022.

If the state had prevailed in their contention that MB was not suffering from delusions when he shot LK, they would have established mens rea to go along with actus reus and MB would have been found straight guilty on two counts and would now be incarcerated.

The state did not prevail on the issue of mens rea. The defense prevailed and established that he was insane at the time of the shooting. At the Krol hearing, Simring stated that MB was still delusional, insane, and needed therapy.

It is a contradiction to say that 1) MB is completely sane and does not need to be institutionalized and does not need medication or treatment, and to say that 2) he needs psychiatric treatment.

I accept and respect the jury’s verdict on mens rea— that MB was insane when he shot LK. That’s why he was committed to a psychiatric facility rather than incarcerated.

From what Lara Osborne wrote, it appears that the nature of treatment in Greystone consists of medication and group sessions, rather than individual therapy sessions. I have no doubt that it is inferior to what could be obtained on a voluntary outpatient basis, and may be quite bad. That’s why the notion pushed by @Sdel and others that the jury used jury nullification to return a verdict of NGRI instead of NG, despite thinking he did not shoot LK, was so absurd.

Certainly, you’re aware that one’s mental health status can change - day to day, hour to hour. No? Certainly you’re aware that external stressors can exacerbate mental illnesses and once stressors are removed, one can recover from crisis, no? Certainly you’re aware that some conditions require lifelong medication, whilst others can be overcome through therapy, introspection, meditation, and myriad other approaches, no?

My own mental illness struggles illustrate this perfectly.

I was in individual and group therapy, as well as OA for my eating disorders and I was on medication. And I was at my lowest, despite all of the interventions. Were the interventions what “cured” me from my eating disorders? Nope. I turned things around during a period of my life when I wasn’t in therapy or on medication or attending any group meetings of any type. I now enjoy food and don’t count calories, don’t starve myself, and don’t vomit when I overindulge.

Other issues of mine have required therapy and/or medication during times of my life that were, in retrospect, incredibly stressful due to issues beyond my control. I couldn’t snap out of it, so to speak, without pretty intense intervention but I also couldn’t control the external factors exacerbating my mental illness.

So… your conclusion is based off of faulty logic.

There is no faulty logic on my part.

Of course one’s mental status can change over time.

Please see the bolded sentence in my post. Simring testified during the trial that Barisone was suffering from delusions when he shot LK on Aug 7, 2019. Three years later he testified during the Krol hearing that MB was still suffering from
delusional thinking and required intensive psychiatric treatment.

The jury was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the trial, and judge Taylor was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the Krol hearing.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

That’s why the notion pushed by @Sdel and others that the jury used jury nullification to return a verdict of NGRI instead of NG, despite thinking he did not shoot LK, was so absurd.

What’s absurd is that you pretend to know what the jury was thinking. Just today on NPR’s Reveal with Al Letson, he discussed a case where a person was found guilty of murder by a jury - despite a witness testifying under oath that they were, in fact, the shooter. Tell me how you can make heads or tails of that? Someone else literally confessed to the crime under oath. And yet, the jury found an unrelated third party guilty of murder.

But, sure [edit]. You know what the jury was thinking and that the State proved everything about the crime committed against LK, beyond a reasonable doubt. Meanwhile, a lot of us have a lot of questions after seeing and hearing the State’s evidence. But, we’re all wrong.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@erinmeri

@CurrentlyHorseless

That’s why the notion pushed by @Sdel and others that the jury used jury nullification to return a verdict of NGRI instead of NG, despite thinking he did not shoot LK, was so absurd.

What’s absurd is that you pretend to know what the jury was thinking. Just today on NPR’s Reveal with Al Letson, he discussed a case where a person was found guilty of murder by a jury - despite a witness testifying under oath that they were, in fact, the shooter. Tell me how you can make heads or tails of that? Someone else literally confessed to the crime under oath. And yet, the jury found an unrelated third party guilty of murder.

But, sure [edit]. You know what the jury was thinking and that the State proved everything about the crime committed against LK, beyond a reasonable doubt. Meanwhile, a lot of us have a lot of questions after seeing and hearing the State’s evidence. But, we’re all wrong.

If, like you, the jury thought that the state had not made its case on actus reus, they should have found MB straight guilty on all four counts.

The absurd part is thinking that they were doing MB a favor by returning a verdict of NGRI instead of NG “in order to ensure MB got treatment at the state’s expense”,

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

If, like you, the jury thought that the state had not made its case on actus reus, they should have found MB straight guilty on all four counts.

The absurd part is thinking that they were doing MB a favor by returning a verdict of NGRI instead of NG “in order to ensure MB got treatment at the state’s expense”,

Consider the possibility that the jury disliked the two star witnesses so intensely much that they were unwilling to convict anyone of anything.

Or, that it’s been years now since MB has been removed from the daily trauma of the LK situation and that even prison was more mentally healthy than being around HER.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

If, like you, the jury thought that the state had not made its case on actus reus, they should have found MB straight guilty on all four counts.

The absurd part is thinking that they were doing MB a favor by returning a verdict of NGRI instead of NG “in order to ensure MB got treatment at the state’s expense”,

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. You are still basing your assertions falsely. And did you even read my post above? Surely you can agree that a jury finding someone guilty of murder when a witness confessed to committing the crime is absurd. Right? Why do you place such stock in what you think makes sense here when so few agree with you?

[Warmblood1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Jillsmith

Lara posted a very sad update on Michael’s Go Fund Me page yesterday.
You can read it; however, it basically says that he is getting NO TREATMENTS at Greystone. I seriously do not understand how this is allowed to continue. Their “policy” is enough to drive someone insane, instead of treating and healing the patient. Can nothing be done?!?

The GFM update said he is receiving no individual therapy treatment. It did not say “no treatments”.

Since you are clearly struggling with all of this, let me copy and paste a direct quote from the GFM update:

“The bottom line is that they don’t do ANY TREATMENT, not for Michael, not for any of the patients!”

You can verify by actually reading the GFM.

So once again, you are blatantly wrong and once again, you can’t admit it.

And no, I don’t care to hear some lengthy round about way of you bringing up topics no one else is talking about. I don’t care what you think WRT jury nullification and the like.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

There is no faulty logic on my part.

Of course one’s mental status can change over time.

Please see the bolded sentence in my post. Simring testified during the trial that Barisone was suffering from delusions when he shot LK on Aug 7, 2019. Three years later he testified during the Krol hearing that MB was still suffering from
delusional thinking and required intensive psychiatric treatment.

The jury was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the trial, and judge Taylor was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the Krol hearing.

Clearly it’s not worthwhile to discuss anything with you of material importance. You have precisely no idea what the jury thought. You pick and choose and skew words to suit your argument.

From what I can see, Simring never said that Barisone remained delusional. Those appear to be words made up by you, and if not, prove otherwise. Simring recommended he be released to the community, but that he have ongoing therapy.

“Psychiatrist Steven Simring, called to testify by Barisone’s lawyer Ed Bilinkas, said Barisone suffers from chronic depression and delusional disorder. He recommended that Barisone be discharged to live in the community, but also said he needs daily intensive outpatient treatment “to get his life back on track and deal with his demons.”

Michael Barisone Will Have to Wait for Freedom

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@erinmeri

@CurrentlyHorseless

There is no faulty logic on my part.

Of course one’s mental status can change over time.

Please see the bolded sentence in my post. Simring testified during the trial that Barisone was suffering from delusions when he shot LK on Aug 7, 2019. Three years later he testified during the Krol hearing that MB was still suffering from
delusional thinking and required intensive psychiatric treatment.

The jury was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the trial, and judge Taylor was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the Krol hearing.

Clearly it’s not worthwhile to discuss anything with you of material importance. You have precisely no idea what the jury thought. You pick and choose and skew words to suit your argument.

From what I can see, Simring never said that Barisone remained delusional. Those appear to be words made up by you, and if not, prove otherwise. Simring recommended he be released to the community, but that he have ongoing therapy.

“Psychiatrist Steven Simring, called to testify by Barisone’s lawyer Ed Bilinkas, said Barisone suffers from chronic depression and delusional disorder. He recommended that Barisone be discharged to live in the community, but also said he needs daily intensive outpatient treatment “to get his life back on track and deal with his demons.”

https://horsesport.com/due-south/michael-barisone-will-have-to-wait-for-freedom/amp/

Please see bolded.

[erinmeri]

@Warmblood1

And no, I don’t care to hear some lengthy round about way of you bringing up topics no one else is talking about. I don’t care what you think WRT jury nullification and the like.

This is a perfect summation of some people’s participation in these threads.

[Tarlo_Farm]

For the Newark paper, in case no one else posted it. I’m calling in the morning and writing as well.

press@njnpublishing.com

Tip line is Call us: +1 848-666-0164

[3PonyFarm]

What I think is horrible is that MB wants the treatment and to do the steps that would lead to his release but Greystone Doesn’t offer the program he needs. Patients who want to do the work to heal aren’t getting it.

[BigMama1]

No. Clearly you either do struggle with reading comprehension or you did not read LO’s update.

The group sessions are NOT treatment. They may call colouring g “art therapy” but that is not therapy in the psychiatric sense. MB is not on any medication and is not receiving any treatment.

And there is no conflict. I don’t think anyone has suggest that he doesn’t need ANY treatment or medication, as you contend. He had been through a very traumatic 3 years which, coupled with his childhood issues and past depressions, clearly necessitate counselling and psychotherapy to help him deal with what happened. That’s what is supposed to be happening, under Kroll, and it is not.

What he doesn’t need is to be incarcerated to receive such treatment. Since he isn’t a danger to himself or others, he could be enrolled in a day program or receiving private treatment at home. He was ordered to Greystone to receive treatment. Since he is not receiving ANY treatment there is no justification for holding him there.

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Three years later he testified during the Krol hearing that MB was still suffering from
delusional thinking and required intensive psychiatric treatment.

The jury was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the trial, and judge Taylor was convinced of Simrings viewpoint regarding insanity during the Krol hearing.

Then why is he receiving NO psychiatric treatment, let alone intensive treatment?

[BigMama1]

It’s so tiresome, isn’t it? How hard would it be for @CurrentlyHorseless to just admit they were wrong about this?

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Please see bolded.

You’re still making false assertions.

[erinmeri]

@BigMama1

It’s so tiresome, isn’t it? How hard would it be for @CurrentlyHorseless to just admit they were wrong about this?

That is not @CurrentlyHorseless’s MO.

Edited typo.

[eggbutt]

@erinmeri, thank you for sharing your personal mental health struggle. I admire you tremendously.

Some people choose to lump all those suffering with mental health issues, from mild to extreme and from self controlled to intensive medication and therapy, into one group. Nothing can be further from reality. Every person is unique which is why multiple experts must be respected and listened to by judicial authorities IMO.

[ninakl]

COTH forum word of the day: bloviate.

Use it in a sentence.

CH bloviates about the same old tired subject regardless of the topic.

@CurrentlyHorseless, you are off topic. This is not a discussion about the jury’s decision. This is about the horrendous warehousing of people who are not receiving the treatment they need to re-enter society. MB’s situation could be the catalyst needed to fix NJ’s track record.

I have been on email lists where you would be put on moderation so that your contributions could be vetted before they were released for general consumption. Clearly, your objective is to rile people up and get this thread shut down.

If it looks like a troll, sounds like a troll, and smells like a troll look under the bridge.

[erinmeri]

@eggbutt

@erinmeri, thank you for sharing your personal mental health struggle. I admire you tremendously.

Some people choose to lump all those suffering with mental health issues, from mild to extreme and from self controlled to intensive medication and therapy, into one group. Nothing can be further from reality. Every person is unique which is why multiple experts must be respected and listened to by judicial authorities IMO.

I think it’s important to demystify mental illness. And I agree people lump mental illnesses together.

[eggbutt]

And just like that, @CurrentlyHorseless has turned this into a thread about her favorite topics - trial, verdict, jury. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH AND TREATMENT AND LACK OF TREATMENT AT STATE RUN FACILITIES.