Michael/ Lauren civil trial update February 9

[skydy]

Wasn’t Ali Brock one of the people who testified for Barisone? She’s giving very good lessons at the Dover Horsemastership clinic in Florida. I’m watching the replay now on USEF Network. She’s quite a good clinician.

It’s too bad that LK doesn’t take advantage of the opportunities available to her instead of spending so much time being disagreeable.

[KurPlexed]

I’m watching Allie too. She’s excellent. Can’t wait to watch more.

[hut-ho78]

@LexInVA

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship? Wasn’t there a recent big deal made about an entertainer (Brittany Spears?) being under the long-time conservatorship of her father?

I am really just curious as I don’t know anything about WHY these types of situations arise except in obvious cases where the individual is so severely compromised mentally or physically that they absolutely cannot manage their own affairs. But why are adults who are capable of living on their own and carrying on reasonably “normal” lives placed in a conservatorship? Is it always something that is forced on them legally (i.e., by court order)? Or do they sometimes willingly agree to place themselves in those situations?

Based on what we know of her personal history, Lauren Kanarek is the textbook example of someone who could be placed under conservatorship or guardianship or both.

Example where conservator is needed, but guardian is not: Lauren K. was in a serious auto accident, where she sustained head injuries. After the accident, Lauren lived in her parents’ basement, went to Temple, played 3D-chess with homeless people, and walked around the town all on her own. She has no ability to do math or handle personal finances and expenses, however, and had a conservator handle the Disability payments, invest it, pay her rent, and send her a small amount of spending money each month.

Example where guardian is needed, but conservator is not: Lauren K. had a massive stroke and brain damage from a narcotics overdose and was rendered incapable of rational thought or actions. As a result, she was placed in a supervised care facility. Because Lauren had no assets or income beyond Disability payments and no personal expenses or finances, she did not need a conservator to make her financial decisions, but she did need a guardian to make her medical decisions.

Did both of these things really happen to LK with the physical damage? If so, how many people posting here knew this? Did coth know this? 48 hours? Brain injuries from a car accident and a stroke from an overdose?

[trubandloki]

@hut-ho78

@LexInVA

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship? Wasn’t there a recent big deal made about an entertainer (Brittany Spears?) being under the long-time conservatorship of her father?

I am really just curious as I don’t know anything about WHY these types of situations arise except in obvious cases where the individual is so severely compromised mentally or physically that they absolutely cannot manage their own affairs. But why are adults who are capable of living on their own and carrying on reasonably “normal” lives placed in a conservatorship? Is it always something that is forced on them legally (i.e., by court order)? Or do they sometimes willingly agree to place themselves in those situations?

Based on what we know of her personal history, Lauren Kanarek is the textbook example of someone who could be placed under conservatorship or guardianship or both.

Example where conservator is needed, but guardian is not: Lauren K. was in a serious auto accident, where she sustained head injuries. After the accident, Lauren lived in her parents’ basement, went to Temple, played 3D-chess with homeless people, and walked around the town all on her own. She has no ability to do math or handle personal finances and expenses, however, and had a conservator handle the Disability payments, invest it, pay her rent, and send her a small amount of spending money each month.

Example where guardian is needed, but conservator is not: Lauren K. had a massive stroke and brain damage from a narcotics overdose and was rendered incapable of rational thought or actions. As a result, she was placed in a supervised care facility. Because Lauren had no assets or income beyond Disability payments and no personal expenses or finances, she did not need a conservator to make her financial decisions, but she did need a guardian to make her medical decisions.

Did both of these things really happen to LK with the physical damage? If so, how many people posting here knew this? Did coth know this? 48 hours? Brain injuries from a car accident and a stroke from an overdose?

Hut, they are made up examples of what a conservator or guardian are. They are not real life things.

[BigMama1]

Reading for comprehension isn’t happening today, apparently

[trubandloki]

For some people it is a common problem.

And then they try to tell us that they know more than everyone else.

[hut-ho78]

@trubandloki

@hut-ho78

@LexInVA

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship? Wasn’t there a recent big deal made about an entertainer (Brittany Spears?) being under the long-time conservatorship of her father?

I am really just curious as I don’t know anything about WHY these types of situations arise except in obvious cases where the individual is so severely compromised mentally or physically that they absolutely cannot manage their own affairs. But why are adults who are capable of living on their own and carrying on reasonably “normal” lives placed in a conservatorship? Is it always something that is forced on them legally (i.e., by court order)? Or do they sometimes willingly agree to place themselves in those situations?

Based on what we know of her personal history, Lauren Kanarek is the textbook example of someone who could be placed under conservatorship or guardianship or both.

Example where conservator is needed, but guardian is not: Lauren K. was in a serious auto accident, where she sustained head injuries. After the accident, Lauren lived in her parents’ basement, went to Temple, played 3D-chess with homeless people, and walked around the town all on her own. She has no ability to do math or handle personal finances and expenses, however, and had a conservator handle the Disability payments, invest it, pay her rent, and send her a small amount of spending money each month.

Example where guardian is needed, but conservator is not: Lauren K. had a massive stroke and brain damage from a narcotics overdose and was rendered incapable of rational thought or actions. As a result, she was placed in a supervised care facility. Because Lauren had no assets or income beyond Disability payments and no personal expenses or finances, she did not need a conservator to make her financial decisions, but she did need a guardian to make her medical decisions.

Did both of these things really happen to LK with the physical damage? If so, how many people posting here knew this? Did coth know this? 48 hours? Brain injuries from a car accident and a stroke from an overdose?

Hut, they are made up examples of what a conservator or guardian are. They are not real life things.

If they are not real life things, then why has there been years of speculation of conservatorship or guardianship?

[trubandloki]

@hut-ho78

@trubandloki

@hut-ho78

@LexInVA

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship? Wasn’t there a recent big deal made about an entertainer (Brittany Spears?) being under the long-time conservatorship of her father?

I am really just curious as I don’t know anything about WHY these types of situations arise except in obvious cases where the individual is so severely compromised mentally or physically that they absolutely cannot manage their own affairs. But why are adults who are capable of living on their own and carrying on reasonably “normal” lives placed in a conservatorship? Is it always something that is forced on them legally (i.e., by court order)? Or do they sometimes willingly agree to place themselves in those situations?

Based on what we know of her personal history, Lauren Kanarek is the textbook example of someone who could be placed under conservatorship or guardianship or both.

Example where conservator is needed, but guardian is not: Lauren K. was in a serious auto accident, where she sustained head injuries. After the accident, Lauren lived in her parents’ basement, went to Temple, played 3D-chess with homeless people, and walked around the town all on her own. She has no ability to do math or handle personal finances and expenses, however, and had a conservator handle the Disability payments, invest it, pay her rent, and send her a small amount of spending money each month.

Example where guardian is needed, but conservator is not: Lauren K. had a massive stroke and brain damage from a narcotics overdose and was rendered incapable of rational thought or actions. As a result, she was placed in a supervised care facility. Because Lauren had no assets or income beyond Disability payments and no personal expenses or finances, she did not need a conservator to make her financial decisions, but she did need a guardian to make her medical decisions.

Did both of these things really happen to LK with the physical damage? If so, how many people posting here knew this? Did coth know this? 48 hours? Brain injuries from a car accident and a stroke from an overdose?

Hut, they are made up examples of what a conservator or guardian are. They are not real life things.

If they are not real life things, then why has there been years of speculation of conservatorship or guardianship?

There are years of speculation about why Jonathon Kanarek appears to have control of Lauren Kanarek’s funds.

Those made-up examples are simply explaining the difference between the two things.

You are really off base on this one. Promise.

[hut-ho78]

@trubandloki

@hut-ho78

@trubandloki

@hut-ho78

@LexInVA

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship? Wasn’t there a recent big deal made about an entertainer (Brittany Spears?) being under the long-time conservatorship of her father?

I am really just curious as I don’t know anything about WHY these types of situations arise except in obvious cases where the individual is so severely compromised mentally or physically that they absolutely cannot manage their own affairs. But why are adults who are capable of living on their own and carrying on reasonably “normal” lives placed in a conservatorship? Is it always something that is forced on them legally (i.e., by court order)? Or do they sometimes willingly agree to place themselves in those situations?

Based on what we know of her personal history, Lauren Kanarek is the textbook example of someone who could be placed under conservatorship or guardianship or both.

Example where conservator is needed, but guardian is not: Lauren K. was in a serious auto accident, where she sustained head injuries. After the accident, Lauren lived in her parents’ basement, went to Temple, played 3D-chess with homeless people, and walked around the town all on her own. She has no ability to do math or handle personal finances and expenses, however, and had a conservator handle the Disability payments, invest it, pay her rent, and send her a small amount of spending money each month.

Example where guardian is needed, but conservator is not: Lauren K. had a massive stroke and brain damage from a narcotics overdose and was rendered incapable of rational thought or actions. As a result, she was placed in a supervised care facility. Because Lauren had no assets or income beyond Disability payments and no personal expenses or finances, she did not need a conservator to make her financial decisions, but she did need a guardian to make her medical decisions.

Did both of these things really happen to LK with the physical damage? If so, how many people posting here knew this? Did coth know this? 48 hours? Brain injuries from a car accident and a stroke from an overdose?

Hut, they are made up examples of what a conservator or guardian are. They are not real life things.

If they are not real life things, then why has there been years of speculation of conservatorship or guardianship?

There are years of speculation about why Jonathon Kanarek appears to have control of Lauren Kanarek’s funds.

Those made-up examples are simply explaining the difference between the two things.

You are really off base on this one. Promise.

There was the testimony about the opioid addiction from pain from a car wreck and there was a discussion about the car wreck and that she had to drop out of school, live at home, and attend the local school from which she never graduated.

[Sdel]

Someone must have hit close to home…

[trubandloki]

Hut, the examples are made up.

Period.

Yes, she is an addict.
Yes, she had a very stupid car accident.
Yes, she stayed at home (until she did whatever it was that she did and she is no longer even allowed in the family home).

Not one of those makes a leap to the made up examples given to explain the difference.

But you are doing a very fine job of showing us just how you get your legal readings just so wrong.

[BigMama1]

@hut-ho78

If they

The speculation about LK having a conservatorship was because it’s not normal for parents to pay all the bills, make living arrangements and smooth out any problems for their middle-aged child.

The hypothetical examples are just general discussion of the types of situations that can lead to guardianship or conservatorship.

It’s really not complicated.

[Knights_Mom]

@rothmpp

@DownYonder

What kind of circumstances would result in an adult being placed under a conservatorship?

It is often put into place for someone who has demonstrated over the years that they are not capable of managing their finances, particularly in the case of someone with decent financial resources. Like an adult that has inherited money, or substantial settlement, but has issues that don’t stop them from looking like they function in society on daily basis. Like a long term drug or alcohol addiction. They may be currently sober, but if they have relapsed from time to time, a conservator can make sure their finances remain intact. Or a person who has fallen victim to con artists or scams over and over again - if they cannot just write a check or initiate a bank transfer without approval, it protects their assets.

I think it is more common to see a trust that is managed by an appointed trustee. My friend’s sister passed away with two older teenage kids. A property of substantial value was sold after her death, and the proceeds are being held in a trust for the kids to be used for things like education until they are 29.

We are encouraging my MIL to utilize a trust since FIL passed away last fall. They have a decent amount of assets, and BIL is angling to “take over” her finances and life (in a creepy Oedipal kind of way but that’s it’s own separate thread). We aren’t trying to limit what she spends, she’s very reasonable, but we have watched BIL already try to get her to sign assets over to him and want to make sure her financial support stays in place for the remainder of her life.

The sooner the better. When it comes to transferring real property into a trust there may be a limited amount of $$ value that transfers each year. When we did it that was $30,000 of real estate value per year. This was long ago so this may have changed. An attorney consultation is of extreme importance.

[enjoytheride]

I have an uncle who my grandfather did all those things for. Legal issues, mortgage, cars, other bills, etc. No guardianship or conservatorship, just some undiagnosed mental issues, some leaching, and a parent that couldn’t step away who was a bit of a sucker. Now grandfather is dead it’s likely uncle will end up up a creek without a paddle.

So hypothetically Lauren could just have a parent that does all of those things without either a conservatorship or guardianship. The way Lauren’s father responds in a way that is similar to the way Lauren responds makes me think it’s a symbiotic relation and not one with official legal ties.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@trubandloki

There are years of speculation about why Jonathon Kanarek appears to have control of Lauren Kanarek’s funds.

Those made-up examples are simply explaining the difference between the two things.

You are really off base on this one. Promise.

Sheesh, I was able to follow the examples, without becoming befuddled and confused. Could Hut-ho really not understand what she’s reading in this basic discussion?

[trubandloki]

Their ability to not comprehend legal stuff and proclaim their extreme right-ness on it adds to my ability to say that the answer to this question is definitely a big yes.

[DownYonder]

Thanks to everyone for the info about conservatorships and guardianships.

From what I have seen (and I admit I haven’t done a ton of reading since I posed my previous question) - guardianships usually apply more to minors and gives the guardian control over the person, including every-day decisions, care, etc. Conservatorships apply more to adults and give the conservator control over the person’s finances.

So for conservatorships - do people willingly place themselves under those types of control? Or is it pretty much always something that is forced on them? And since it takes a court order to make it official, is it something a person could/would fight against being put in place? I also assume that it would take a fair amount of “proof” (documentation from health professionals, etc.), to convince a judge that an adult needed that kind of oversight.

Another question - there is a difference between a conservator and a trustee - correct? IOW, it doesn’t take a court order to name a trustee in that a person can set up a trust and name a trustee on their own, without it having to be “ordered” by a judge. In LK’s case - wasn’t there some discussion at some point that she had “come into some money” (inheritance, lottery winning, insurance settlement, etc.)? So in a moment of lucidity, she could very possibly have set up a trust to help protect and preserve those assets to be drawn upon as needed.

A friend did the same when she inherited a good bit of money from a grandparent. She elected to put her share into a trust and draw enough of it each year to pay the mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc., so she didn’t have to work full time (which enabled her to focus on raising her children). One of her siblings OTOH didn’t put his funds in a trust and blew through most of it within a few years (he had an expensive hobby - racing sailboats).

[erinmeri]

@Knights_Mom

And no one needs to wake up next to Gary Busey.

Once, at a hotel in LA, I was with my friend’s little sister getting ready for his college graduation party. She and her friends were teens in high school and were understandably excited about being in LA and getting dressed up, etc.

Suddenly, there was a bang, bang, bang on the hotel room door. Couldn’t really call it a knock, it was so angry and loud. I opened the door to a crazy-eyed Gary Busey, who screamed at me that we needed to shut up because he was “filming a movie”.

I wasn’t in Hollywood yet, but even then I knew that if the “movie” was legit, they would have rented out the entire floor or shot it in a studio. Dude was cray.

Anyways, story time over.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@DownYonder

So for conservatorships - do people willingly place themselves under those types of control? Or is it pretty much always something that is forced on them? And since it takes a court order to make it official, is it something a person could/would fight against being put in place? I also assume that it would take a fair amount of “proof” (documentation from health professionals, etc.), to convince a judge that an adult needed that kind of oversight.

In the case of Jonathan Kanarek, however, just how much legal “proof” do you think he would really need to present in order to get a judge to do something for him? Somehow I doubt our friend JK would be constrained by procedure or law if he wanted a judge to sign something for him.

[DownYonder]

Re Gary Busey - his portrayal of Commander Krill in Under Seige always struck me as someone who didn’t need to stretch very far as an actor to portray someone who was cray-cray.