Mini Rolexes??

[triggerfoot]

pat on the back: i agree completely. BN might be the scariest course to watch, but the way to fix the problem might be to make it more challenging to discourage the wing-and-a-prayer types from entering. i’d bet that BN courses that are described in the omnibus as “easy” have more, ahem, tense moments than those considered hard. one thing that could make everyone happy would be more options at the lower levels. if you don’t think your student is ready for the 18" bounce, instruct her to do the log instead.

also, not all of us have facilities where we can practice cross country.

and while i’m at it, i’d like to rant real quick. i’ve schooled training and prelim, and i want to move up to training next year. it annoys me that i can’t “practice” going training speed at a novice event without getting speed faults. yah, i know i know, its to protect the people who are out of control or at least to make them circle a few times, but i am NOT out of control and i can’t afford to enter a bunch of extra events just so i can practice an entire course at speed. okay, i’m done now.

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[ThirdCharm]

Teaching the basics is the trainer’s job, not the event’s. Beginner Novice events are there to allow riders (and horses) to demonstrate skills they should have perfected at home. The most the event experience should be expected to teach is how to handle the pressure of demonstrating those skills in public in such a way as to still present a smooth, coordinated performance in all three phases on the same weekend. Cross Country is no place for a “beginner” rider, despite what you will see watching almost any USEA BN competition…

I had not noticed that Ireland and the UK had the corner on hunter, jumper, and dressage competitions and riders. There certainly seem to be plenty in my neck of the USA. I have plenty of students who started off in another discipline (several Hunters, a couple Dressage Queens, some Jumpers, even a former saddleseat rider) before gravitating toward eventing. Of course I have several who started off having never sat on a horse but had seen eventing on TV and thought that looked like the sport for them. Do they learn the basics of showing at BN events? Heck no! If they want to show desperately, they can go to the little local h/j show and pick up some ribbons in crossrails, progress to 2’ hunters, there are even some shows around here that have 2’ Jumpers Then there are little schooling events that offer things like Maiden 2’ divisions. I really don’t think it would damage the sport irreparably if the Beginner Novice division didn’t cater to the lowest common denominator.

Sorry if I rant, but I’ve had my heart in my throat one too many times just watching BN stadium!!!

JenniferS
thirdcharmtrainingcenter.com

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asterix:
OK, I may brand myself as a total idiot with this question, but, why, master tally, did the presence of shoulder pads and non-Tipperary vests mark them as total newcomers (sounds like their riding was a better tip off)?

Have I missed something? Would I be safer w/o the shoulder pads? Should I upgrade my vest? I’m serious, here, either I need some good advice before I go back out or I look like a dork, but a safe dork. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was being facetious… which I keep forgetting doesn’t translate well over the internet.

Yes, their riding was certainly the tip-off. And I have to give them props for their safety-consciousness, especially considering the circumstances. As far as shoulder-pads… I don’t use them myself because I find them annoying and bulky, and just don’t like the feel of them on my arms.

I’m glad you like your casel-equi… I find them much stiffer than the tipperaries, as do most people I’ve talked to who have tried both.

I’ll admit, I love fashion, and sometimes wish I could be a hunter princess (gasp) for the fashionable aspect of it (oh, what fun I could have combining coats with shirts and britches). Hence my love of classical x-c garb (i.e. skull cap with properly fitted navy satin cover, navy blue tipperary vest, TS breeches, etc). All the neon colors make me want to call the fashion police.

That said, the most important aspect is that each rider is comfortable and safe, and if the CE vest and shoulder pads help you feel that way, more power to you.

Just please, please, please everyone… don’t wear a sleeveless shirt under your vest for x-c at a recognized trials, or I may be forced to call the fashion police!

[Pat_Ness]

Some kind of questions on the course, actually help you dictate the speed needed. It could help on both ends on of the spectrum, the speed demons need to slow down and the picky ones need to ride forward. Skinnies do the same thing.

You would not want a log less then 5 strides from a ditch (at Novice or below) in fact, the log should only be placed after the ditch as the coffin canter is not something the green horses and riders need to learn (as mentioned earlier and a point well taken). But, the log after the ditch is more of a help. Instead of just riding for the ditch, it teaches you to kick on after so that your horse can jump out over the log. It actually helps green horses in many cases as they see the next question and take the rider down to it.
Jumps into the water are also too difficult for the greenies, but a jump a stride or two out of the water again helps the green horse and rider focus on what the question is. Single fences are fine, but a clever use of more simple combinations, will actually help people find their engines and allow horses to see the question right in front of them and to show off how smart they are.
My experience anyway and my opinion.

Weatherford, I’m not headed to the convention and I’m just not brave enough to be able to talk intelligently about these changes. Heck, I have a hard enough time writing my opinions on this board! This discussion makes me want to go out and set up some fun twisty rides out in the field.

Pat Ness

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Master Tally mentioned watching a couple beginner types school cross country. My question is: where in the world is thier trainer? Maybe this is the real problem with lower levels–it’s the lack of good consistent help that is causing people to ride too fast or to slow?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My problem wasn’t that I didn’t have an instructor… it was that I had an instructor who was ignorant and I didn’t know any better!! Two sides of the same coin. And when you’re ignorant, you don’t know what you don’t know. So the question then becomes, how do we find and inform those who don’t know any better??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At first, I wondered if one of them was the other’s coach. But as I got closer, I realized they were both novices. Decked out in mostly correct garb, although the fact that they both had the shoulder pads attached to their vests (which were not tipperary or the new charles owen) was a dead giveaway that they were very new to this. I am quite sure that they were hunter princesses of some sort who thought it would be “fun” to school some x-c stuff. Problem is, you can’t ride that hunter lope to solid, spooky fences, even if they are small. Unfortunately, they were not aware of that. They are lucky they didn’t get hurt.

I think both lack of coaching and bad coaching are serious problems. I also think it is very hard for newcomers to find qualified coaches, especially if you aren’t very close to the atlantic coast. USAE used to have a listing of trainers on their website, complete with qualification listings… while I’m sure that USAE didn’t verify all the info given, it was a good start, and a good central repository.

Let me pose a question… had you been me, and seen these two having a bit of trouble, would you have said something, or, as I did, rolled your eyes and ridden away? It killed me not to say anything, and the coach in me really wanted to go help them. However… not sure that it was really my business, which was why I left.

[This message was edited by master_tally on Oct. 24, 2002 at 02:19 PM.]

[bigdreamer]

hi all

I was tempted to post a subject like this the other day after attending an event where LOTS of people got eliminated.

I was riding novice, and we had a ditch on our course. AT LEAST 20% of the riders had a refusal (out of 120 entries!) if not elimination there! Then at prelim, there was a weldons wall/brush (brush w/ ditch in front) that was NO BIGGER (including brush) then training size- and i watched more people get eliminated there then anywhere else that weekend. By the end of XC only 9 people were left in each prelim division.

Now we dont want to “dumb down” the courses- because that makes move ups sooo much more difficult… but I am almost tempted to think there should be a rating system for each event. like, a N1, N2, N3. N being novice, N1- an EASY good move up type course. N2 being moderate difficulty and N3 being championship calibur.

I think this would help riders gauge what events they should enter. I just find it sad when you see a ton of novice people get eliminated. as much as they need to learn, i feel it would SUCK to get eliminated every time! (i’ve been there…) Then they get discouraged and dont want to compete. Perhaps it is their own riding issues, but still… (does that make sense?)

The rank of the course could be decided by the TD when they come visit earlier in the year- which wouldn’t cost any extra. Just when TD’s do their clinics to become TD’s they learn the rating system. Only cost would be the extra ink it takes to write the numbers in the omnibus.

As much as this seems like an inconveniance(spl) i think it would help a LOT.

~Since some riders need nice move up courses and some riders need courses to challenge them as pre-move up courses, this would be a great way to solve the problem.
~A person moving up to training and a person planning on moving up to prelim at the next show dont really belong in the same group- does that make sense? Perhaps you could get away with it- but that would be for the rider to decide when entering- since they would then know what to expect on their course and they (hopefully) know what they are ready for on course.

any thoughts?
~laura~

[subk]

W–I think it’s a lovely idea. But the problem that I see here in the states is that eventing isn’t a sport people gravitate to AFTER they’ve hunted or showed hunters or did dressage or become horsemen in some other disipline and THEN started eventing. We have so many more riders who aren’t much more than beginners riding in events. Our lower levels are not only to teach horses the basics but also riders.

How ironic that the course you describe was something you were doing that WASN"T an event. You guys can start your levels of eventing with more difficultly (Your Novice is our Prelim. and Pre-novice or our Training is kind of a new thing over there) for the very reason that you use other riding pursuits such as hunting, hunter paces etc. to start your young horses and to develop riders.

Personally I agree with you 100% but I wonder at what expense it would be to the sport over here.

[Sannois]

And quite frankly I do have issues with a three foot fence when geek boy is oggling things all over the place and is anywhere BUT the task at hand. That said, We will get some more schooling under our belts and get the communication factor working. THEN maybe we will try a Novice Horse Trial. Thanks for your insight!

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

[asterix]

phew! Glad to hear I am just dorky, not unsafe.
I’m SURE if I tried on one of the newer, nicer vests, I would love it (remind me NOT to at Fair Hill this weekend), but I am in blissful ignorance, which is cheaper than knowledgeable envy…
As for comfort/bulk, I am still new enough at this that the adrenaline rush wipes out ANY sensation I get from my vest, so I don’t really notice it at all.

And you will be relieved to hear that it is hunter green, and color-coordinated with my pad and helmet. Everything else is tasteful black. Not that anyone notices – they are laughing at the sight of me, perched like a little (green, dorky) peanut on top of my enormous, hyper-enthusiastic horse, vainly trying to look like I’m actually in charge.

So far I have successfully convinced him to jump the fences on our course, rather than the much cooler looking ones on the Prelim course, but it was a close call a couple o times. All of you who told me Irish-bred/hunted horses would think Novice and Training American fences would look laughable were spot-on. He will need to suffer them, however, until they start looking laughable to me as well…

To make this on topic, we had a two stride combo at Novice that he zoomed through in one (though that was due at least in part to his large size/stride, er, yeah, that was the problem), and I promised myself we would HAVE to sort out our fence-approach communications before attempting courses with more related distances, or at least any that were shorter than that one!

At the moment, lots of bulk between me and the ground doesn’t seem like such a bad thing!

[Pat_Ness]

They are here in Minnesota and have been for years and not just bank bounces. I have seen them at Training as an option at Longview and again not banks, but two verticals.

subk–concerning the lack of actual riders at prelim and above verses passengers. This is a real problem brought about (IMO) by all the sloping faces we now see all over cross country. I can still hear some really great coaches, encouraging me to just ride at it, the face is so sloping it’s not a problem. There seems to be no where on course at Training and below, where you need to balance anymore. This is a big mistake (IMO) and by the grace of many a brave, trusting horse, a lot of riders are getting around.

Pat

[Sannois]

Wow we should compare notes!! You described me and my guy at our event last month. I know if I cant get through a BN cross Country with out all those :HEY whats that over there?" episodes it will only be harder at novice! I ended up trotting some of the cc again, after thinking I just dont have his attention. Even though he was superb at the event in June. I cant see dealing with it at Novice, I need to get it solved at Beg Novice, BTW he isn’t worryed about the fences, just the things out in the field, :\ So should we just forget beginner Novice?? I’m not sure what was said. Early!

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

[wanderlust]

I board/ride at CTETA, so I get to see all sorts of interesting things.

First, in regards to the prelim bounce issue… CTETA has at least one (if not two, can’t really remember) bounce. The first is two enormous hanging logs. I also think there may be a bounce out of the new road crossing (jump down, one stride, jump up, jump log) but don’t remember if that was for prelim or intermediate.

As far as kamikaze vs. backwards riding, I see waaaayyyy more backwards riding. Case in point… while hacking out through the x-c course this past Saturday, there were two riders schooling over some of the baby novice and novice fences. The riders looked to be novices themselves by the way they caught the horses in the mouth and were left behind repeatedly. I meandered by, watching the horses do a strung-out “hunter lope” up to a small (2’9") ramp, then just stall out and stop repeatedly. One horse, bless his soul, decides to attempt to jump, but the rider hangs on his face, and he doesn’t have enough motor to even get all the way over. He puts his feet down on the ramp, one slid off forwards, the other stayed on the ramp. Rider was hanging precariously to his neck. Horse manages to get the front foot back up and over the jump, and extracts himself from the straddled position. They were both very lucky, because I thought he was going to do a slow-motion flip. Rider re-approaches with the same lack of impulsion, horse leaps into the air and jumps her clean out of the tack. At this point, because I had seen enough, and because I knew if I watched any longer I would have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut, I trotted off into the trees.

IMO, backwards riding is a far greater sin than going like a kamikaze (not that either is a good thing)… it is easier to turn horizontal momentum (i.e.speed) into vertical lift, than it is to get vertical lift without any momentum. Also, crashes at speed will hopefully throw you out of the path of the animal should you flip; in this case, had she flipped, she would have had 1100lbs of horse land direction on top of her.

[This message was edited by master_tally on Oct. 23, 2002 at 05:36 PM.]

[Magnolia]

Is a trakehner a ditch with a log over it? We have these ditches at my farm and they put big log jumps over top of them. They look scary, but I guess the horse would be doing nothing different than if you jumped the log without the ditch.

We also have one ditch that is HUGE! I’d jump it like a bank - you could jump in and bounce out - it isn’t deep, just wide.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[Pixie_Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asterix:
My first Training course was quite straightforward, with the exception of 2 large angled logs set one stride apart (Marlborough, for those of you Area IIs out there). THis combo gave me the serious heebyjeebies right up until I was four strides out. WE had had such a nice flowing go till then that when I felt him lock on the line, I knew we’d be fine. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheeeeee…I was jump judging that event. I walked the Training course thinking…hey maybe we can do this (like in a year)…then I got to that combination and just went… uh oh. Glad to hear it rode well!!!

What an interesting conversation!!!

[GotSpots]

Just an echo of Subk (anyone seeing a trend here?): most of the better courses really do build on each other, though sometimes we as riders don’t realize it! For example, I know of a Novice course where the second fence is a pile of logs in the middle of a field, the sixth fence is a pile of logs that you turn to off of a corner, and the 13th (I think) fence is a pile of logs at the bottom of a hill. What’s great about this is that the first time the fence is used, it introduces the obstacle, the second time, it asks the horse and rider to package the gallop so as to make it around the turn, which sets the team up to have that packaged ride to the fence down the hill where they will need it. But the first time I walked this course, I remember saying “this is lame, it’s just one pile of logs after another.” Took a smart rider to explain to me what the course was designed to do, (after kindly explaining that perhaps there was a reason my gangly youngster had not even blinked at the fence at the bottom of the hill which I had been all worked up over).

I also think options are a wonderful way to help riders at a level make choices appropriate to their ride and their horse, and I applaud the black flag rule which makes this easier on course designers. Hopefully the efforts of the USEA towards promoting good course design and training course designers will continue.

[ThirdCharm]

While it’s true that not everyone has a trainer (heck, I didn’t, until after I had gone Training!), isn’t bombing around xc kind of dangerous if a rider has neither that or any kind of clue? It doesn’t seem like that is something that should be encouraged. I at least was far from a beginner when I took up the sport. Some 2’ skinnies, bounces, and funky looking jumps could help a lot, particularly if they were set up in such a way as to invite a runout instead of a stop. Maybe if they get eliminated enough, the people who have no business being in the ring will get the idea that they might need to go take some lessons. I am so tired of eventing being considered the sport of yahoos and the great untutored! “Oh, you just have to survive five minutes of dressage, and it doesn’t matter how you look jumping as long as you get around!”

JenniferS

[Janet]

Oh boy- TWO posts addressed at me.

First off, I DIDN’T say “no one needs a trainer at shows”. I said that I didn’t agree with the statement: “otherwise, I would have had to go trainerless, which I think we can ALL agree is bad.”

I am NOT suggesting that ANYONE doesn’t need an instructor. EVERYONE needs an instructor- just not necessarily AT the event with you.

I AM saying that GOING TO AN EVENT without a trainer isn’t not NECESSARILY bad. Even for your first event.

(I am NOT saying that going WITH an instructor or trainer is BAD.)

For someone going to RIDE in their first event, without an instructor, I would expect that they had already attended several local events (preferably WITH someone who was riding), so they would already know the “ettiquette”, had walked a cross country course, had walked a stadium course, etc.

I would expect that they had VOLUNTEERED as a jump judge at several events, so they were both familiar with the rules, and had an opportunity to see other people make mistakes, and learn from them.

I would expect that they had already ridden their dressage test at a dressage schooling show, so they know what to expect there. (The rules are a LITTLE different, but not much.)

I would also expect that they had been to a jumper schooling show.

I would expect that they had schooled, if not actually in the rain, certainly in a variety of footing.

Anyone who HASN’T done these things before going to their first event is definitely at a disadvantage, with or without a trainer. And if you HAVE’T done these things, then YES, you DEFINITELY need a trainer, or at least an experienced colleague willing to guide you through it.

But if you HAVE done these things, and have confidence in yourself and your horse, there is no reason you shouldn’t have a sucessfull trianerless “first event”.

The first “events” I went to were Pony Club rallies where, BY RULE, you were allowed NO advice from the time you entered the grounds. (Nowadays, I understand that they let you have someone to walk the course with. Not then.) But we all had plenty of advance preparation.

To re-iterate. I am NOT saying it is bad to have a trainer at your first event. But I AM saying that, if you have the proper advance preparation, it isn’t bad to go to your first event without a trainer.

Master Tally.

I CERTAINLY agree that “people here need coaches to learn to ride x-c” (even people elsewhere). But I DON’T agree that it means they need a trainer WITH THEM AT THE EVENT. I would hope that they had ALREADY learned from their trainer “how to ride cross country” BEFORE the event.

[Heather]

I agree 100% Weatherford. i’ve said for a while that part of the scariness you see at prelim in this country in because the leap from training to prelim is TOO big.

I HATE bounces on XC–I think we should get rid of them and put them in SJ, if that’s a question we really want to test. BUT, if we are going to insist on having them in XC, then I firmly believe we should start with them at training and maybe even novice level. Maybe six inch logs or foot-high logs at novice, maybe 2 foot logs at training, but waiting until prelim is not kind or wise. Similarly, corners ar e abig question to spring on someone at prelim. I don’t dislike the question of corners, but it’s a little unfair to throw that in so late in the game.

Now yes, you school these things ahead of time, but we all know it isn’t the same as doing it, make or break, on course with adrenaline up.

So I’m all for it, small, round, easy, but with the full questions intact.

[JER]

Weatherford, I agree with you about the trainer thing.

I event without a trainer present, although I do take lessons 2x week from a showjumper. For the past two years, I helped my teenager in the warm-up ring but now, at 15, she prefers to go it alone. If she wants help, I’m there, but she knows her way around the event grounds and how her horse is supposed to go.

I actually think it’s important for the rider to know when his/her horse is properly prepped to go in the ring or on the field – no one should have to be dependent on a trainer for this.

[asterix]

Hopefully someone here rode both Marlborough and Waredaca this year – I rode M Training last year, and the end of the course I think was the same (2 stone walls at right angles, to the one stride offset logs, down to the ditch-to-rolltop), and I walked (but didn’t ride, alas) Waredaca this year.
Except for that sequence at the end (oh, and I forgot about the new Training sequence, downhill bending line), I thought Marlborough was pretty straightforward. But some of that stuff at the end is a BIG jump up from novice (how I was looking at it)…
Waredaca Training this year looked like a hodge-podge. The water was sort of unimpressive, and many of the fences were straightforward, but that ditch-and-wall scared the pants off me, and I’ve schooled the bank/drop complex, and it’s a BIG drop down.
So I would think it perhaps depends on your horse. I think Marlborough would be easier for a catty horse, harder on a big charger (like mine), but Waredaca looked to reward the bold, forward ride, with less emphasis on combinations.
Also, I was looking at it from the perspective of a rider just moving up to Training, not looking to prep for Prelim. I guess if I had to pick, I’d say that Waredaca looked a little easier, but that’s largely because big doesn’t bother my horse, while I’m still working on steering and adjustability…