Mini Rolexes??

[asterix]

Agree with the overall themes here – would love more questions/options on lower level courses. Also to add to the others on bounces at Prelim – last weekend’s Prelim at Waredaca had a bounce, offset rolltops, I believe, with a long and uninviting go around.

To the idea that most folks at Novice don’t need/want shorter related distances, and the “move-ups and pros” know how to school them at home, I disagree! I moved up to Training last year after clear sailing around BN and N courses and a ton of schooling of T and a few Prelim fences, but found that
a) not too many schooling areas have short related distances in the permanent collections – most tend to come out in the portables, at least around here, and
b) schooling anything in a little isolated unit, or schooling it with stadium fences at home does NOT adequately prepare you for how it feels to encounter something like this 2/3 of the way around course, when your horse is tired, or pulling, or wound up, or…

My first Training course was quite straightforward, with the exception of 2 large angled logs set one stride apart (Marlborough, for those of you Area IIs out there). THis combo gave me the serious heebyjeebies right up until I was four strides out. WE had had such a nice flowing go till then that when I felt him lock on the line, I knew we’d be fine. But nothing we had schooled had really approximated that combo, and it was a BIG step up for a novice rider/horse pair.
I would have been really happy to try something like that, much smaller, maybe not offset/angled, on a novice course earlier in the season, but there was nothing even close.

[Pat_Ness]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JenniferS:
While it’s true that not everyone has a trainer (heck, I didn’t, until after I had gone Training!), isn’t bombing around xc kind of dangerous if a rider has neither that or any kind of clue?
JenniferS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hoped that’s what my post was saying, but maybe it wasn’t…
Anyway, I agree with you again JenniferS.
Pat

[Robby_Johnson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pat on the back:
we have Robby. I found this from the rides I’ve had on green horses cross country. They all showed me slower was better when it came to the natural obstacles (ditch, water, banks). One of them insisted on trotting over the X in front of the water. I would ask for the canter and he honestly could not process it, but at the trot no problem. If I were to canter this green horse to the first log in front of the coffin, he most certainly would have been confused, but once they’ve jumped the ditch, the log out is a relief and usually something they are so happy to show and tell us that they can do.

I don’t want to promote trotting cross country fences (height) so that is why it seems the height jumps should go after the ditch, bank, water.

What are others experience with green horses and combinations.

Pat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wherein schooling new things, it’s best to take a slow, conservative approach.

But the question you define - which is a related distance - didn’t sound quite right to me. An open ditch must be ridden over. You can’t crawl up to one, but you shouldn’t get flat to it either.

I must say that I do, in fact, have a fantastic video from Kentucky (Champagne Run) from 2000. In the ON, they had an open ditch which apparently was 8 strides from the sod bank (a table). With Willow, it’s neat to watch because a.) we’d never jumped an open ditch in competition and had only schooled one once, at least a year before and b.) she was galloping with her nose on her knees until about 4 strides out.

She saw it, bubbled up, jumped it beautifully, and was set up perfectly to the sod bank and got 8 even strides from ditch to table. (I know, I counted! Though I never walked them when I did my course walks.)

Point is, she wasn’t green at that point, at least to the level, and she was actually a much more forward type of mare. The ditch to table exercise, on flat ground, was good for her, but it also caused problems for the more conservative green horse/riders that day.

I appreciate your scenario because, having another really green horse coming along it makes me think, “what would I rather do with Rhodey?” I have to say the log to the ditch would be more fair, at least for him.

When I moved up to Training - coincidentally the event after the one I mentioned earlier - we had a 1/2 coffin. For those of you who have ridden at Middle Tennessee, you’ll know what I’m talking about. The first element was a wide-ish chevron, and down a pretty steep hill to the ditch.

I mean, in all fairness, all you had to do was jump the chevron and the force of gravity would get you through the rest.

Of course, Willow locked onto the skinny/pimple that was the prelim C part of the coffin, so much that I thought we were going to have to lark it!

Blyth doesn’t take his horses to a novice competition until they can add strides significantly between two poles on the ground. At the clinic I organized, we set the poles at, I think, six strides. He was really surprised that only one Intermediate rider (out of five groups; 2 OI, 2 OP, 1 OT) could get more than 10 strides between the poles.

Teaching the horse to adjust - lengthen and shorten - at the canter is what I now consider the core of cross-country riding. So Rhodey will not be going out until he can adjust between poles on the ground. (Of course, he could probably do 10 in six, but that’s because he can canter in place when not encouraged by my leg!)

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

[Weatherford]

Couldn’t agree with you more, JenniferS.

My thoughts on XC really come from a few years back when I was more involved with Eventing stateside - writing specs, designing & building small courses, & getting the TD license (which I decided not to complete).

There are quite specific rules as to what can and what cannot be on a course. In retrospect, I think it makes building the XC to the lowest common denometer - rather than teaching. Certainly the jumps should be safe (one of the things that horrified me about some of the unrecognized events in NJ/PA!).

There could be options for those who don’t want to do the more difficult “parts” of a low level technical fence.

It just seems to me that you need to experience the technical stuff at the lower/safer heights - and since no one BUILDS that, how can anyone experience competing over it. Or, if no one is building that, how do lower level competitors even get to PRACTICE that on schooling days??

There are plenty of places and ways to practice the SJ questions - from your backyard to local schooling shows. But the XC is another matter, and I think of far more fundamental importance.

IF the courses ASKED the technical questions on a lower level, PERHAPS people wouldn’t be quite as quick to move up before they are ready?!
19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[Heather]

I’m also curious where it says that bounces aren’t at prelim anymore?

And i agree that there is a lot more to a question than the jumps, terrain, placement, etc do add to the difficulty. However, I still think we can start to introduce questions at an eaarlier/easier/smaller pahse in competition. I mean, I’ve been to a few clinics and lessons in the last two years with BNT and they all start showing baby corners to their horses and riders as soon as they can jump and oxer. They start introducing bouonces as soon as they’ve mastered the one stride. If baby horses and inexperienced riders are schooling it, I don’t think it’s wholly innapropriate to have it in competiton. They put in skinnies that are a foot high.

BUT, if we really feel like it could be too much for some people/horses, then how about having options, just like at the upper levels. I’ve seen two courses that offere training level corners, where the option is either a larger oxer, or a one stride. People new at the level or who have no desire to move up take the oxer or the one stride. Those who want to practice for prelim do the corner. (And let me add, by option, I’m not talking about a long vs short way–in these cases the options are all in a directline with each other–no time lost one vs. the other).

I guess I can only speak for myself, but my first time out at prelim on a horse having it’s first time out is stressful enough. Wondering if I can ride well enough to not screw up the bounce or wondering if my horse has seen enough corners was absolute torture. I would have prefered to know the answer in a competitive setting before everything got bigger and faster.

That’s just me though–I also liked having two halts in the novice test because the halt was my moment to gather my thoughts and let my horse take in the scenery, rather than trying to shove them down and through the center line when they just wanted to know what was going on. I’m wacky like that.

[wanderlust]

Thanks Robby, I knew I could count on you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asterix:

And you will be relieved to hear that it is hunter green, and color-coordinated with my pad and helmet. Everything else is tasteful black.

So far I have successfully convinced him to jump the fences on our course, rather than the much cooler looking ones on the Prelim course, but it was a close call a couple o times. All of you who told me Irish-bred/hunted horses would think Novice and Training American fences would look laughable were spot-on. He will need to suffer them, however, until they start looking laughable to me as well…
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breathing deep sigh of relief…

Interesting that you say that about your ID. I have been riding a dutch WB from the UK who did some extensive field work, and jumped around one of the “B” courses (Blenheim, I think) at prelim (their novice) before coming over. He tries to pull me at every large fence on the course when we are just out galloping. I have not yet jumped him, but I would have little fear of skipping the BN/N/T fences and just jumping him around most of the prelim course. He just gives me the feeling that the bigger and more solid, the better, and I shouldn’t waste his time with anything small. Then again, small fences scare me, because I couldn’t find a distance to them if it hit me over the head (which I believe is a function of growing up riding medium ponies over 3’ courses). Anyways, I digress…

TLE- it may be against the rules to ride without sleeves, but I saw several people do it at one of the horse trials. Tacky, tacky, tacky.

[ThirdCharm]

Well, lemme tell ya, every single one of my Beginner Novice students has jumped a 2’6" trakhener with a 3’ wide fully revetted ditch. Mainly b/c I, personally, HATE trakheners. I wouldn’t even think of putting a BN out on course who wasn’t doing triple bounces and such at home. sigh

JenniferS
thirdcharmtrainingcenter.com

[Pixie_Dust]

hrmmmmm, let’s see if I can remember what I wanted to comment on.

Jagold, I’m intrigued…no BN. What should I be doing? I had problems at my last event, but I truly think it had nothing to do with the fence size and everything to do with the “spooky” surroundings. I am going to Full Moon on the 17th at BN. Maybe I should just trot the course again. He is such a GOOF! I don’t think I am a green rider, but this goofy, but talented horse has me a bit spooked myself, so BN is probably a good idea for us. The reason I would never do a recognized BN is just money. THere are a ton of unrecognized events to do. I will do unrecognized at BN and N before our first recognized N. [OK, I answered my own question .]

RE: riding in Ireland v. the US & the “good ole’ days”. It really depends on your barn. In the 70’s & 80’s I boarded at a barn where there was lots of land, streams, xc jumps etc. They hunted (and I was able to tag along.) There were NO rules. We did all kinds of silly stuff, often barefoot & bareback etc. Nowadays, many barns (because of insurance & other reasons) don’t even allow you to jump unless you are taking a lesson. So it’s harder to gain that experience in the US. Even just the experience of galloping across a field.

Re: trainer at an event. When I started (back in the 80’s) I never had a trainer at any event. But, like Janet said, I had already been a helper/groom for other eventers, I had jump judged and I went with a buddy. Plus, I had already spent years showing local Jr. Hunter (also sans trainer) and knew how to get myself together.

[Pat_Ness]

That progression during the course used to be around more in the states, I think. I prefer this type of cross country as you don’t need to school cross country jumps so much as you and your horse grow with confidence during the course.

The problem with the Jack LeGoff comment seems like it was too broad and true only if you don’t adjust the striding (as you mentioned). We used to have a wonderfully fun course that Lucinda Green called a mini Badminton here in Minnesota to school over. Nothing over 3’3" and most were set at 3’ or under with tons of variety. We had Irish banks, water with jumps in and out, set at the lip and 3 strides out, 5 logs set at bounces (all under 2 foot) an adjustable Weldon’s Wall. A coffin with a 2’6" rolltop in and out and varying stride options in between. This was all on 15 acres (or less) and was the brainstorm of Betsy Watkins.
It was a great place to have the Lucinda clinics as Lucinda is the master at learning to ride like your horse is a tube of toothpaste and you are squeezing some out for the big brush.
The course you described, sounds absolutely fun! It really sounds like it simulates going cross country.
We have an 8 mile master’s pace today, but it is snowing here and I just don’t have the gumption to go have some fun as the rain has caused some incredible mud as well. I know I should not be so lazy, but the weather is kind of getting to me already. I’m in trouble… Thanks for sharing your fun ride though! I think this would be something the horses would love as well as the riders.
Pat Ness

[tle]

Novice courses are currently allows to have fences no closer than 33’, although they must be numbered separately.

Rating system: while great in theory, you’re talking about having the TD rate the course. TD’s do their pre-course check at only 6 weeks out. Omnibus listings must be written and submitted approximately 6 MONTHS out. So if the TD is to rate the course, we’re talking an extra trip ($). AND, for many courses that are on public or semi-public land, they may not have the fences available/in-position for that kind of check. There are 6 events not counting Rolex that run at the KY horse park. That place is phenominal in it’s use of portable fences. I know for my local course, we finished 2 brand new prelim fences the weekend prior to the event! I agree that rating courses could be a helluva lot better than the current “Average” that everyone seems to use, but it also has to be feasible.

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy

[Robby_Johnson]

But I’ll try to answer you as best as I can!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pat on the back:
I have ridden cross country (only about 7, which is so few, but enough to get a pretty good idea) will compress on their own when they see the question as they usually begin to back off. That is when you add leg and you receive a wonderful compressed horse that is going forward. That is how I like the green horses I ride to go as you then ride between your leg and the fence. That is something I have been taught in numerous clinics.

Yes, so you see that it is possible to have a compressed horse, even at a lower/green level. You use the fence/question as a way to help balance the horse. But it’s also really assumptive to think that all will back off. Some will grab the bit and go, others will stall and fall behind the leg. So you must make some sort of riding decision to help, wouldn’t you agree?

Robby, you also mentioned earlier about if its frustrating to the horse, you probably shouldn’t be schooling it. I disagree. If it’s frustrating to the horse, you are doing it the wrong way and need to break down the question either by slowing down the pace, making the question lower or spreading the combination out further. I would say slowing down the pace will help the situation over 90% of the time.

I think I pretty much said this exact thing in another post, when I responded to JER’s comment about frustrating the horse, but it’s always worth restating. OOPS! I’m editing because I went back and reread and didn’t see anything more descriptive; I guess I posted that on a different thread. I’m on my K.I.S.S. kick lately. That’s very much a Ralph-inspired thing. He always says, “go back to something they understand, then ask again.” My personal feeling is that when a horse exhibits an outward sign of confusion/discomfort, that the only thing we can do is go back to a simpler exercise until he is confident and understands. Sometimes this can take 1 minute, sometimes it can take a week!

Also, this quote from one of your posts has me curious: Telling a green rider on a green horse to “just stay out of his way and let him figure it out” is toxic

Are you thinking your last clinic was not very helpful? The problem I see here is the green rider part and if clinicians had their choice, they would not be putting green riders on green horses. I have to agree with your clinician and the theory to let the horse figure out the questions especially when the fences are stadium jumps. The horses know when they are the ones that made the decision for the ride and they also know when it was the rider interfering. Maybe you were not referring to your previous post about that clinic though so I’m sorry if I misunderstood.

Nope, I wasn’t referring to that at all. That clinic was incredibly helpful, as I posted originally. I think most would agree that green/green isn’t a great combination. But it happens, and you must be prepared to teach it. Horses that can figure out the job, by themselves, and that forgive many rider mistakes (which we all make, I’m sure you’ll agree with that) are worth their weight in gold. But I think it’s really only fair to the horse - who we ask to do so much - that the rider be equally versed and capable. That’s what I’m saying about the teaching style in which the rider’s abilities aren’t addressed.

Also, the coop to rockwall where you had a fall, could have worked with a good half halt in between the obstacles. Compressing each stride all the way down to the next cross country obstacle, just does not sound like a good plan. It sounds like a great plan for stadium though. Just had to point out a few things I found way different then anything I heard of before for cross county riding.

Trust me, sister, your armchair quarterbacking can join my 3000 theories on what could’ve been done differently! I wore the bruises for a month and I regretted the ride immediately. But a good half-halt tends to result in compression, essentially, so I think we’re saying the same thing. In my situation, you must know that I was riding a mare who was having a pretty heavy heat cycle, who’d already been set on her butt (the day before in the show-jumping, when she exhibited the most beautiful charge-of-the-light-brigade to canter-in-a-teacup before a 4-stride line … basically the same question she was asked the next day) and again on course, and things were unraveling as the course progressed; for a horse who never had an XC penalty, in 3 years of competing, it was surprising me as the course progressed and I kept thinking, “WTF is happening here?! Who are you down there?!”

As far as too speedy verses backwards riding on cross country. It is definitely the speed demons that are what I see. Both are equally as terrifying.
Pat

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 23, 2002 at 10:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 23, 2002 at 11:02 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

[This message was edited by Robby Johnson on Oct. 24, 2002 at 06:59 AM.]

[Poombadesign]

I think that sounds like a really good idea. I would love to jump over a BN/N/T Rolex course!! That would be awesome and so much fun!!! Some events have the same kind of jump, just different sizes, but these are usually only single jumps and not combinations. But there was one event I heard of (maybe Southern Pines?? Don’t hold me to it) that was P/I/A and had a lot of the same just different sizes. I think I remember seeing pictures of the water (or one, if there’s several) where the question (drop in, up on island, drop back in, jump out) was basically the same, but fence sizes were different. I could be totally wrong here, but I have a slight recollection of such a thing.

“It’s Friday afternoon…do you know where YOUR Chronicle is???”

www.geocities.com/HorsepicsPhotography

[Janet]

What Weatherford said.

And, while PC officials COULD intervene if you did something stupid or dangerous, I don’t think I ever saw it happen.

And I find a LOT of support between competitors:
“Be careful of jump 5, it rides spookier than it walks”
“A lot of people are having trouble with the black and yellow vertical, the ground drops away to the right.”
“Can you tell WHY I had that rail down?” “It looked to me as if you lost impulsion on the corner and didn’t get it back in time.”

This is one of the reasons the proposed new “coaching rule” makes no sense for eventing

[triggerfoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
otherwise, i would have had to go trainerless, which i think we can ALL agree is bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. Don’t “agree that it is bad.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm, okay. so everyone thinks i don’t need a trainer, that’s fine and you’re right… now that i have been to a whopping 4 horse trials and ready to go training!!! however, you REALLY want to send people to their FIRST EVER HT trainerless??? if you read my original thread, that’s what i was referring too.

i’m gonna read the new thread “role of trainers in eventing” once i am done with this, but in the meantime…

for my first ever event, i didn’t know anything about etiquette, when to enter the dressage arena and what to do once i got there, how to walk a xc course, how to deal with footing (it was raining like crazy, and i had only been schooling in fair weather) etc etc etc. i would have CROAKED without my trainer. sure i had read the rulebook 1,000 times, but there was sooooo much to remember… and then once i was done remembering how not to get eliminated i still had to get on and ride.

before you declare that no one needs a trainer at shows, make sure you do in fact mean NO ONE.

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[Heather]

I’m struck, as I often am, by how different things seem to be around the country. We have many folks on this thread saying that they see all this backwards riding. I can tell you, around here, Area II, what I see is a lot of kamikaze riding. I see people tremendously overmounted, tearing down to fences like fire-breathing monsters, and then jumping up the neck causing the horse to swim in to the air. I see that far more frequently than I see people who are riding backwards or coming too slowly.

I see riders who have apparently never heard of the half halt, or even sitting up in front of the fence, and I see riders who see the need to circle before the second to last fence because they are so fast as some sort of badge of honor. Typically, I see someone on a horse that is too big, too hot, too high powered, or too green for their level of skill, being ridden in an enourmous bit that does not make up for the deifciencies of the rider (who typically has bad hands so in fact the harsh bit only serves to make the horse more agitated and frantic), who gets chased to every fence by a rider who is hanging on for dear life.

So I would in no way be in favor of speeding things up–'round here things are fast enough, thank you very much.

[GotSpots]

I have to agree with Subk’s second post – I don’t think that green horses and riders need to be trying to handle the technical questions of corners, bounces, or technical combinations. These types of questions only encourage the backwards riding (pick, pick, pick) and inability to make time on a Novice course that are dangerous. The heart of cross-country is going forward – too many technical questions too early in a horse or rider’s education may encourage them to proceed to a fence so slowly and without impulsion that they are unable to jump it safely, because, at this level (as we see in the dressage questions asked as well) the horse does not have the development or strength to hold himself in a balanced, impulsive canter like a Prelim or Intermediate horse does (or ideally should). That’s why we ask simpler questions at the lower levels, because we don’t expect the horse to have developed the muscles to compact the canter: it’s why we don’t ask Novice horses to lengthen their stride and why we ask Training horses to start to be able to moderate their longitudinal stride, but don’t expect them to have a true collection or extension yet.

A bounce or coffin asks that precise question: the horse needs to compact his stride while maintaining the impulsion to jump cleanly: it’s commonly termed a “bouncy” or “coffin” canter. We don’t ask the Novice or Training horses to do this because in general, they can’t yet, and/or their riders don’t have the ability to properly create that canter. (When we do have a bounce on a Training course --I’m thinking of the bounce bank up at Rocking Horse, for example – we are asking the horse to jump up, but not out of a collected compact coffin canter.)

Should we have a skinnier fence (note, I said skinnier, not skinny) on Novice or Training? Sure. Should we have variation in the questions asked? Absolutely. There are some wonderful questions you can ask at that level, which should be asked at that level (Wayne’s Training, for example, has a question where the horse has to jump light to dark and then down a hill to a little post and rail: great quasi-technical fence that asks a fair question). There’s also times where course designers build options for the lower levels, which starts training the rider to think on course about how her horse is going and which jump will be the better ride.

But I don’t think it’s fair to a younger or greener horse or rider to ask that pair to jump a question which asks for strength and/or development that we’ve not asked them to demonstrate in any other part of the three phases. If you want to learn to jump corners, or coffins, or a bounce, start out by schooling it. I don’t want my horse to see his first corner as he gallops at it on course, regardless of the level.

JMHO. I could be wrong. --GotSpots

[Miriam]

I totally agree. In fact, Lucinda specifically said to the course designer that it would be highly beneficial to build a smaller one (more BN or N size) so that riders could progress in more practical steps. I’ve seen several smaller double banks, but not any on courses. And of course, bounces aren’t hardly ever seen until Prelim. I agree that making the technical questions smaller would certainly prevent some disasters and problems at a higher level. Though, as Jennifer S said, I think that the responisbilty to work through some techinical questions rests now with the riders and the trainers. Putting that type of question on course, would force people to practice it at home, and in my opinion create a safer, more educated, competition base.

Sometimes I think the so-called expets actually ARE experts.

[tle]

Robby, I’ll check my reference material from one of the design seminars I atteneded and let you know if it’s actually printed somewhere… or if it’s just one of those things that I “picked up” on.

I guess the whole thought process is that if the horse can see the WHOLE question from the get-go, it makes it easier for them. I know my mare is still sometimes like this… have to see the question and process it (which, btw, is one thing I remember Jimmy Wofford saying is the biggest difference between a horse that’s ready for Novice and a horse that’s ready for Intermediate… how quickly they can process information).

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy

[subk]

Weatherford–a couple of questions. Do you think that riders “over there” in general spend more time riding in the open. Not necessarily hunting, just hacking around, down roads or any place less secure than the boundries of what ever farm their on? My asumption has always been yes, but I just realized I have no knowledge to back it up. If the answer is yes do you think that changes the mentality of the riders? (Personally, I think the whole question in this post is not about better prepared horses but better prepared riders.)

Also I had a discussion with Roger this spring not exatly on these lines but I think it applies here a bit. We were talking about the lack a quality in a surprising amount of Int. riders we had watched that weekend. He was wondering if perhaps in the sports effort to make more horse friendly jumps we had allowed riders and horses to continue to move up when they really hadn’t learned all their lessons. Riders tend not to give enough significance to having a bad few seconds never connecting that a few years ago that bad few seconds would have been a very bad day. The difference being advances in course design.

The relation between that discussion and the one here would be does opening the options for the course designers to ask more difficult questions at lower levels help some of the issues seen when the questions start getting serious at the upper levels?

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it’s probably safe to say, at this point, that this is entirely contingent on the rider and the horse.

What’s comfortable for you may not be comfortable for me. And in the world of cross-country, it’s all about the rider!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robby, while I luv ya and completely agree that question difficulty can vary from competitor to competitor, the statement I made was from a course design POV, not a rider POV. Course design instruction does state that ditch/log is an “easier” question than log/ditch.

sorry for the confusion.

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy