Mini Rolexes??

[Weatherford]

Someone still has to go talk to Denny, Jimmy & Roger…

I would like to point out that one of the things people say about Irish horses is just what GREAT XC horses they are. My coach thinks it is because they are smart - which is true - but, I really think it is more like they GET MORE EXPERIENCE over relatively small fences (OK, NOT as small as in the States! ) with some very difficult questions.

And not all of them foxhunt (mine don’t and probably won’t - too much wire!)

So, my horse, in his first “real” outing (outside of a couple XC days schooling) with ME (the ultimate chicken - who hasn’t really evented since PC days) jumped around a Novice/Training level course (not at speed, however) with LOTS of what you would consider “illegal” questions - from all those Trakheners (I can’t spell that!) to a real coffin (3 strides to the ditch& rails at the bottom, then 2 strides out - which I did in 3 ) a combination that included a ditch to an Irish Bank (we didn’t do that because we’d never done a bank that big before - we will when we go back there), an airy log fence in the woods to an open ditch (2 or 3 strides), and a pair of stones walls in a one stride…among other things. The course FLOWED - and once you saw the little kids on the little ponies jumping it, you knew your horse could!

Yes, I think options for the more technical questions is a great idea - (on that course, you could do the log to the big ditch in 2 or swing wide and do a smaller one in 3 or 4.)

I think that the riders who are NOT going to ever move up would especially appreciate having more questions to answer - more difficulty, more challenge - WITHOUT the speeds and the heights.

Perhaps, given the VAST numbers of riders at the lower levels, these levels need some kind of subdivision by experience. Could we award “grading points” at those lower levels so people could earn the right to do the tougher courses & options in a different “class”?

Just more thoughts.

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[triggerfoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
First off, I DIDN’T say “no one needs a trainer at shows”. I said that I didn’t agree with the statement: “otherwise, I would have had to go trainerless, which I think we can ALL agree is bad.”
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks for the clarification. You did take the comment out of context though. the whole paragraph was specifically about my first event, as i mentioned in the beginning.

so do you think its, um… not-bad to go trainerless at your first event? i guess you’re saying that it “depends on the individual” (an oft-heard phrase on this board ). i really am trying to see this with an open mind, but i guess i’m more obstinant than i want to be because it seems very foolish to send a beginner to a ht trainerless. question for you janet, in pony club, did they have officials who would step in if they saw a kid doing something stupid or dangerous? i wish i could have done it when i was wee.

by the way, i just want to say how totally cool it is to have all of you “older and wiser” types out here in BBland. i love these disagreements and always feel like i come out the other side better edjucated. thanks!!!

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[This message was edited by triggerfoot on Oct. 28, 2002 at 01:43 PM.]

[Pat_Ness]

For finding a way to get the information to the powers that be.
Pat

[Pat_Ness]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asterix:
I suppose what I would vote for is course design that is a bit more consistent within the course itself – how many times have those of you who do the lower levels found that the same course had both “bottom of the level” and “top of the level” questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is one thing if it is a simple fence after there has been a question that was taxing, but I have been on courses where you felt like they just brought in a log to add to the number of jumps, no thought process behind it at all. Hey, they could bring in two small logs and put in a nice turning combo. This is where it helps to have TD’s that are willing to come up with quick ideas to add to the course before the official walk.

[subk]

GotSpots–You are so much more articulate than me! Thanks.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That doesn’t happen here in the states. People ride in rings. Around and around and around.
They jump fences that fall down, so the forward, connected ride is not as necessary (in their
perspective, not mine). They go for trail rides once a week. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sincerely hope you are not advocating entering a horse trial (at ANY level) WITHOUT schooling cross country fences. THAT could be disasterous.

And, yes, if you haven’t done it before, you DEFINITELY need an isntructor to teach you how to ride forward AND definsively cross country. But that is a very different issue from having a trainer with you at the event

[GotSpots]

Subk – just to add to your thought on bounces at Prelim:

I’ve only seen one bounce that did not involve a bank on a regular Prelim course: on the old Big Bear Prelim course there were two coops (I think, but they could have been solid walls – they were definitely fences and not banks though) at bounce distance. Pine Top has a bank up-bounce-log and drop, then three strides to a coop on its Prelim course. Rocking Horse has a pair of bounce banks that they use both up and down on their Prelim courses (and up on their Training course). I can’t remember if the courses I’ve seen out west had them – Jess, do you have any experience with this? I don’t recall riding one at Ram Tap or CTETA way back when, but it was quite awhile ago.

[JAGold]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
What should folks like Bgoosewood and myself do? I started out over a year ago at a Recognized event, USEA, at BN and my horse and I had no problems, except our Dressage was lacking, Now this fall we have Cross Country Attention issues, Still at Beginner Novice. I still am hesitant to move to Novice, thought we have schooled some good solid Novice fences and was fine, This is all new to my horse, who only has been jumping for a little over four years, Never jumped before I got him. He is 14. I have ridden hunters for a good 30 years, and I would not classify myself as a beginner, Although I have no designs on anything above training, and probably not with this horse. I feel when problems like mine and bgoosewoods arise it makes sense to stay at a level where you can deal with the non jumping issues, Am I wrong? Would love to hear your thoughts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry…I’ve been caught up in math all afternoon!

First, though I don’t think either of you has interpreted it this way, I don’t mean to tell you what to do with your horses, and I don’t mean to imply that either of you are “beginners.”

That said, I think you’ve really answered your own question: when the issues aren’t related to the jumps, then you need to ride at a level where the jumps will not add to the problem. For a green or spooky horse who has no problem with 3’ fences and novice type questions – or rather, no more problem with 3’ fences than 2’6 fences, novice is fine. If adding the height and difficulty between BN and novice makes a difference to horse or rider, then the pair benefits from going BN.

I really do believe that 3’ fences should not be a problem for any horse who is ready to compete – they can trot 3’ fences and should have in advance of a novice horse trials. If 3’ fences bother them, my tendency is to school and take them to shows to hang around, perhaps, but not to compete.

If 3’ fences (again, in comparison to 2’6 fences) are an issue for the rider, that is a different story and when perhaps BN and schooling shows are appropriate. If you don’t think you can ride your spooky horse as well to a 3’ fence as a 2’6 fence, then by all means, ride him at the level where you can ride him well.

I’ve often taken horses that my trainers’ clients have had trouble with at BN, novice. This is because I don’t think the problem will be worse at novice, and because I think that given a positive ride, the learning experience will be better at novice.

So I guess I’m not really answering your question, except to say that if you think the horse will go better at BN either because he or you question the novice fences, then ride BN. Otherwise, all things being equal, I think horse and rider are better served at novice. Does that explain my thinking at all? --Jess

[asterix]

Yes, that combo at Marlborough rode just fine, at least at that moment, with that horse…
but – and maybe this was just because I was obsessed/terrified about jumping it all day long – I could swear that I heard an unbelievable number of falls and refusals at that combo during the day.

My trainer had blithely said “this is no big deal” when we walked the course (and yes, I was glad to have my trainer with me to walk my first Training course – very good to hear HOW to ride that combo since we’d never schooled anything quite so unforgiving), though he was very careful about just how he wanted it ridden.
As I cleared it, I saw him, waiting on the other side, cheering me on (I think he figured I would either want cheering, or someone to catch the horse). Of course, later, he said “yeah, that was more like a Prelim question at Training height…”

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just please, please, please everyone… don’t wear a sleeveless shirt under your vest for x-c at a recognized trials, or I may be forced to call the fashion police! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don’t worry… you don’t have to bother the fashion police as sleeves are mandatory on XC (according to the rulebook).

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy

[asterix]

OK, I may brand myself as a total idiot with this question, but, why, master tally, did the presence of shoulder pads and non-Tipperary vests mark them as total newcomers (sounds like their riding was a better tip off)?
I bought my Casel-Equi vest when I WAS a total newbie, but ever since the shoulder pads saved my collar bone/shoulder in a fall I have seen no point to taking the pads off. I also see little point in buying a “cooler” vest since mine fits, doesn’t get in my way, and seems as safe as any of the other ones.
I may not look like I know what I’m doing by what I’m wearing, but I can assure you that I am a perfectly competent training level rider.
Have I missed something? Would I be safer w/o the shoulder pads? Should I upgrade my vest? I’m serious, here, either I need some good advice before I go back out or I look like a dork, but a safe dork.

[Janet]

Back to the original question.

I think it is VERY valuable to have “mini Rolex” fences to school over. Narrow fences, bounces, arrowheads, trakheners, coffins, banks, big drops, steps, jumps with height into water, offset in and outs, weldon walls.

But I think it is a very different thing to put those things in a course.

For instance, I think a horse should be schooled over a trakhener (with a chance to look at it, figure it out, over jump it, and decide that it is OK) before having to jump it in the “heat” of competition. But if you put it on a course, you will probably have SOME horse that have never seen one before, and it could lead to a “bad first experience”, which will be hard to overcome

[Weatherford]

Sent this to Denny a few days ago.

Just sent it to Roger…

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[kileyc]

Hey Robby,
It is me and I am not really trying to be anomomys, although I should because I can’t spell it! Anyway, it is me April Williams from Dallas! You are right, it depends on the horse, I started a guy last fall at novice, but he had done the 4’ jumpers and was not green. Who knows how long my new greenie will be at BN-I rushed him a bit to his first BN and he wiggled in stadium, cleared the oxer, but in his cofusion forgot to put his feet down and landed on his nose and knees! Thank goodness didn’t scare him, but it did severely bruise my butt and I am still healing a month later! In hindsight it was WAY to early for his first HT. He is done for the year and will bring him back in the spring, when he is ready for BN.

[Robby_Johnson]

The girl we stayed with in PA for Radnor showed us video of her baby (Training) at Southern Pines this winter/spring. On the course, there was a baby corner, and a baby coffin.

I do disagree with Pat Ness, however, in that the “coffin canter” should be achievable very early on. Because the coffin canter is actually the demonstration that your horse has impulsion and enough contained energy to get over the fence.

If I jumped a log, assuming I’m going somewhat downhill, to a ditch, and had five strides to get organized, I’d think of my approach in (to the log), where a contained and energetic canter would be necessary.

If I jumped a ditch and had five strides out to a log, I’d likely be more prone to ride really strong to the ditch, then have to take back before the log. I don’t think this is a good exercise for a young, green horse.

A green rider, too, would probably be better served having a jump in, instead of the bigger question first.

That’s just me, though. Others may feel differently.

For some reason I have zero phobias of open ditches. But put a log on top of it and I start getting all clammy!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

[Miriam]

The Prelim at Paradise (it’s first is scheduled to run this november) has a log bounce on it.

PS- I’m with you Robby, I’ll jump open ditches that you could bury my truck in, but don’t even think about putting a log over it. Sigh.

Sometimes I think the so-called expets actually ARE experts.

[Weatherford]

Re vertical faces on XC in Ireland - I believe so. Certainly the stone walls at the one real event we did were fairly vertical. And there were vertical logs, etc. I think so.

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[triggerfoot]

was the “trainer thing…” you know, the “oh my god i can’t do an undersaddle hack class without my trainer whispering instructions from the rail” thing.

so thanks for the interesting responses. i have seen a lot of trainers at ht’s that make me cringe. lots of micromanagement, and trying to fix things (esp in dressage) at the last minute. these are trainers i would DUMP IMMEDIATELY!!! however, mine stays totally out of my way unless i need him for something, in which case he’s right there. the most important part of having a trainer is, for me, the course walk.

i made the point not because of my own needs, but because the “trainer thing” was brought up earlier in this thread. i do think its terribly important for green riders to have their trainer there. not me of course, 'cause i’m so perfect

and as for the REAL reaon i don’t go to shows alone: i don’t have a trailer

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[This message was edited by triggerfoot on Oct. 25, 2002 at 05:56 PM.]

[Weatherford]

of course that was a fine decision!

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[Weatherford]

Some years ago, Jack LeGoff (I believe) said he could build a pre-pre course (“mini-Rolex”) that no one could get around.

This became an interesting and useful discussion of what is and what is not allowed on lower level courses.

The problem Maplebrook and Miriam had with Trakehners mentioned in a couple of other threads points out to me a problem with taking the attitude that certain questions are too hard for the lower levels.

I believe (and strongly) that all questions need to be asked at the lower levels - that is LOWER fences and adjusted distances accordingly - before they are asked at the higher levels.

What I see here in Ireland is lots of smaller ditches, coffins, trakehners, bounces, water jumps, etc - that are included in lower level courses where horse won’t get into trouble (and lose confidence) if they make a mistake at them. This, to me, seems logical and right. Yes, you want the lower level courses straightforward, but don’t you also want them to be learning experiences? Why not a 2’bounce (make it off a turn, so the horse & rider CAN’T do it too fast.) or a SMALL double bank (there was one in a Baby novice course that I knew in PA that was lovely - but then it wasn’t allowed!) Can’t these also be done as options?

The big problem I see in the States is that people don’t have the land and the courses over which to practice - thus much of their learning is done in the Events or at clinics hosted by the Event location.

Thus the smaller, more inviting, versions of difficult questions, I would think, would be very nice to have and good for horses and riders.

I think if my first ever Trakhener were a tough Training level one - 3’3" over a maxed deep and wide ditch - I too would have a heart attack.

As it was last weekend, the third fence was a big ditch - but there was no where else to go - so it rode easily! The first Trakehner was about 2’3"-2’6" over a small ditch. Easy! Further into the course, the Coffin was very inviting - small, and the log rails at the bottom over the ditch were slanted so you didn’t notice the ditch (unless you looked down ), then a bit later a maxed log in the trees (big and very inviting!) two strides to your choice of ditches - the big black gaping one happened to be right on the direct two strides from the log - so - it too flowed smoothly.

A few fences later (after the water - which was ugly and hard - deep & muddy but we went around it because of that) another easy bank with a big drop off (again you could do the easier drop off, but the big one was in the rhythm)… Then another small trakhner - with a small ditch. Then anther water - this one was small log, stride, bank (big drop) into very shallow water, canter out and over another log. Then, the last trakhener, which was maxed (1.0 m/3’3"). By that time riding it, however, it looked minimum (I remember thinking when I walked the course, YIKES, I’m NOT jumping this!). It was easy… the last two fences were a maxed stone wall with a tiny ditch in front and decent drop, and an easy Irish bank…

The point here is, the course included some very difficult questions but graduated them and kept them all in a rhythm so the horses got very confident by the end. (This was a “Hunter Trial” or Hunter Pace as we call it, not an event.)

The whole experience made an actual event the next day (different location) look absolutely cinchy!

How do you feel about difficult questions made easy for the lower levels - rather than not being included at all? Is this still being discussed in the USEA?

I know, there are a LOT of XC fences/questions I would rather try at a smaller height/degreee of difficulty than at the max’ed level.

Found the view, but too expensive