Modern Pentathalon

[ThreeWishes]

I think the article posted upthread says it all. There has to be a way to include the riding phase and end the idea that completing > competing.

[MHM]

@caffeinated

I feel like a sort of hunter pace/cross country ride would be a good/appropriate substitution

That sounds like a much bigger logistical challenge to organize any sort of cross country course for competitions. It would require more space, more time, a lot more competition officials, etc., etc. Plus if they are trying to change it so the whole thing takes only 90 minutes, that would make it even harder.

Really, if they’re updating it anyway, they should just remove the horses altogether and let them ride bicycles. They can’t hurt the bicycles if things go wrong. Or if they do, it’s easy enough to just buy a new bicycle to replace it.

[Darkwave]

@Bogie

I’ve swum competitively at that distance so I do have a sense of what they’re doing. I still think that the challenges of jumping a course of 1.2 m fences on a horse you’ve sat on for 20 minutes is orders of magnitude harder than swimming 200m freestyle.

Swap it to 200m butterfly?

[BLBGP]

After watching that, I’d let one of those athletes borrow my bicycle, but definitely not my horse.

[Brown_Derby]

@caffeinated

I feel like a sort of hunter pace/cross country ride would be a good/appropriate substitution - set up a course that involves some terrain (nothing too tricky) with a series of obstacles (not jumps necessarily, but navigating streams/bridges/crossings/gates) that have multiple options (perhaps with scores allocated based on difficulty), and with an optimum time rather than fast time.

The more practiced riders can get better scores, but riders having trouble or not clicking with their horse have options.

I feel like that’s in keeping with the roots of the competition, and safer for everyone.

This is very much like how the 2010 USPC Int’l Tetrathon was run at Woodside Horse Park. I was not there but a local instructor was the coach for California. (She has since moved to Florida and I imagine is still active in PC). Course (which was walked beforehand) included banks, and a gate (mounted) and a slide gate (unmounted). A few refusals but nothing frightening. Riders came from many countries.

When Pentathon had its origins, only officers rode, not grunts. Officers came from the upper class and were skilled, EDUCATED horsemen. Much like the development of the Trak breed; it was bred as a light, sensitive horse for skilled officers and thus was almost the only WB bred to ride. It was not bred to pull cannons etc.

I suspect the only change will occur when a rider or horse is seriously injured and PETA has its field day. Many wealthy and thus influential celebrities are on the PETA bandwagon.

ETA: Jumps maxed out at 3’3.

[JER]

The 200m free is a beast of a race. It lies between sprint and distance and has the worst components of both.

It’s a good test.

[MHM]

Exactly.

[JER]

This is a complicated question.

National competitions might be less competitive but also might be very competitive. International open competitions can be more competitive than the Olympics - more people, qualifying rounds, etc.

Thank you Virginia_Horse_Mom for asking thoughtful questions rather than proposing ridiculous replacement sports.

For the most part, the equestrian phase is working in pentathlon. Most rides are not disasters and most riders aren’t crybabies, It’s like saying we need to take XC out of eventing…

BTW, in all this commotion over crying in pentathlon, it worth noting that while no horses were injured or died in pentathlon, a horse was killed in eventing. Go fix that first, then come back and we’ll discuss how there should be no more showjumping in pentathlon because a girl had a meltdown on a horse.

[Night_Flight]

In your experience, what are the typical jump heights at pentathlon competitions? How often do these competitors see a full 1.20m course compared to the lower .90m-ish courses that we’re seeing in other videos?

[MHM]

@JER

BTW, in all this commotion over crying in pentathlon, it worth noting that while no horses were injured or died in pentathlon, a horse was killed in eventing. Go fix that first, then come back and we’ll discuss how there should be no more showjumping in pentathlon because a girl had a meltdown on a horse.

Is there some law that says it’s only possible to fix one thing at a time?

[TwiSedai]

I agree with you on all of it but the horse dying in eventing, I’m still just not sure what could have been done as far as changing XC that could have prevented that injury. Only thing I could see that could prevent that might be x-rays and ultrasounds immediately before competition. The cross country this year was actually pretty dang safe for the horses.

[Marigold]

I absolutely cannot bring myself to comment on the disaster that is the riding portion of modern pentathlon in Tokyo, but I did want to address this:

@Thames_Pirate

No groom worth their salt is going to try to cool the horse out after the warm up but before the event

Thames, I’ve agreed with several of your posts here, but this is outdated information. There has been a huge amount of research going into the cooling of horses and how to assist them in performing in extreme climates, such as we saw in Tokyo. One thing that has been investigated is active cooling of the horses mid-performance. It has found to be very beneficial.

If you listen to the most recent episode of The Hold Box (a show on The Eventing Podcast), a British veterinarian interviews one of the veterinarians who worked at the Games about the eventing portion. One of the main points of discussion was the introduction of “active cooling” - that is, horses were cooled with copious amounts of water/ice water, misting fans, etc between warm-up and competition, and during holds on course in the middle of the cross-country phase prior to being restarted. The vet working the event said that all but one or two of the riders used these methods (all major teams used this approach), and the result was that we now have 60+ examples that this works well for the equine athletes, up to and including a very elite level. He clarified that they did not “re-warm-up” the horses - they warmed them up, cooled them off, and went straight out of the start box to ensure the lowest possible heat load on the animals. The result was that there were very few exhausted/overheated horses coming through the finish, and notably when show jumping the next day the horses all looked quite fresh.

So many other measures were taken to ensure horse welfare given the climate - Max Corcoran was sent to the Games to be in charge of ice. ONLY ice. The stables were air conditioned. Shade tents, misting fans, and unlimited water was everywhere. That’s only welfare considerations related to the heat - I’m not even getting into considerations like footing, etc etc etc. And then there is pentathlon - throwing some jumps on a rugby pitch without so much as a bucket of water or a groom in sight, let alone research of any kind or even welfare regulations of note. I have no words. Those poor creatures.

Full credit, @Jealoushe also pointed this out upthread, but I thought it bore repeating as this is something we all should know and could use.

@Jealoushe

I have to comment on this. I just listened to the Eventing Podcast The Hold Box Tokyo edition…you are incorrect.

They are actually now recommending that horses be cooled between warm up and competition, when the conditions are hotter than normal for that horse.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9ldmVudGluZ3BvZGNhc3QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/MmZmMTJlYzYtMzVhZi00MzY4LWJlYzgtNzQ3NDMyMzQwMWM2?hl=en-CA&ved=2ahUKEwixyPmsvabyAhUIXM0KHRAYB5wQjrkEegQIHRAF&ep=6

[trubandloki]

@MHM

@JER

BTW, in all this commotion over crying in pentathlon, it worth noting that while no horses were injured or died in pentathlon, a horse was killed in eventing. Go fix that first, then come back and we’ll discuss how there should be no more showjumping in pentathlon because a girl had a meltdown on a horse.

Is there some law that says it’s only possible to fix one thing at a time?

Or better yet - is there some law that prevents one from fixing their own sport without bashing some other sport.

@JER, I was on your side until you tossed this one out there. Wow! Very low!

[sascha]

@JER

Thank you Virginia_Horse_Mom for asking thoughtful questions rather than proposing ridiculous replacement sports.

For the most part, the equestrian phase is working in pentathlon. Most rides are not disasters and most riders aren’t crybabies, It’s like saying we need to take XC out of eventing…

BTW, in all this commotion over crying in pentathlon, it worth noting that while no horses were injured or died in pentathlon, a horse was killed in eventing. Go fix that first, then come back and we’ll discuss how there should be no more showjumping in pentathlon because a girl had a meltdown on a horse.

Please define a replacement sport that is more ridiculous than one that jeopardizes the safety of the animals used in as sport tools. Your short-sightedness is appalling and isn’t really helping your cause of getting the equestrian faction on board with keeping show jumping in Modern Pentathlon.

It does even less to help the rabid Animal Rights faction from steam-rolling your sport completely. It will happen. Maybe not this year, but it will happen.

I have strong (negative) views of XC in eventing, but at least the governing bodies are TRYING to do something rather than merely attempting to plaster over the abomination with terrible PR and closed-minded ramblings.

[MHM]

@Marigold

I’ve agreed with several of your posts here, but this is outdated information. There has been a huge amount of research going into the cooling of horses and how to assist them in performing in extreme climates, such as we saw in Tokyo.

It’s funny you should say that.

I was at a show over the weekend in warm weather, and I overheard a trainer telling a student about walking the horse until it was cool before giving it a bath, etc., etc.

Even though there has been a lot of research to show newer and better approaches, I think there are many horse people who have not kept up with the times on that subject.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@JER - next question for you

What role can the Pentathlon officials play in reforming the sport, and does the cultural challenge within pentathlon with respect to really seeing the horse welfare concerns the rest of us are seeing… well… does that sport culture problem extend to the ranks of the officials?

One thought is that perhaps pentathlon organizations could partner with licensed officials from national governing bodies overseeing jumping and eventing competitions for a while. Get some new eyes involved in overseeing the equestrian portion… in particular… get input from officials who are NOT part of the current leadership groups within pentathlon. Then, have actual rules added with respect to,

1. Nobody remounting and continuing on course after either a horse or rider falls on course

2. Have rules in place concerning the abuse of horses that are in line with other disciplines. The obvious rule updates I can think of should cover how spurs are used (Repeatedly hammering a reluctant horse’s sides with your spurs like two riders have been caught on video doing is NOT a correct way to use spurs, and should have gotten them both rung out of the arena, in my opinion), and of course, excessive use of the whip.

3. Have rules in place concerning penalties and/or outright elimination for dangerous riding. This in particular might incentivize more riders to transition from a ‘just complete it’ mentality, to trying to actually do better at COMPETING in the jumping phase

Just a few thoughts. Clearly there were already rules on the books concerning how riders should comport themselves during the jumping phase, and clearly Annika was in violation of the standards, yet officials at Tokyo allowed her to ride anyways. Given that she was in gold medal position at the start of the round… I would imagine that was a nightmare situation for an official in many respects… damned if you do eliminate her, but as we can now see, also damned if you don’t. Maybe having outside officials from jumping and eventing work in partnership with Pentathlon officials for a period of time would help when instituting rule changes covering horse welfare and dangerous riding, and help everyone make tough calls more readily…

[trubandloki]

I like your ideas @Virginia_Horse_Mom, the problem with them is, even with these new rules they still have to enforce them.

[TwilightJumper]

Not that I want to jump in the middle but plenty of horses get wiped down before and after a round. There are lots of practical riding reasons for this too.
If you watched the straight Show Jumping many horses were wiped down on the neck and other areas before and after.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I totally agree… rule changes will only be effective if enforced, and clearly there is a cultural problem within pentathlon in terms of recognizing what constitutes dangerous riding, what constitutes horse abuse, and what is a welfare concern for both equines and the riders.

Since we have @JER participating on this thread… I figured it was an opportunity to dig into the role the officials are playing in this mess, and propose an idea for changes to the officiating ranks within the sport to potentially change the culture of the sport with respect to the equestrian phase in a MUCH more expedited manner…

Culture changes in any organization or sport are TOUGH. Bringing in outside experts (licensed officials from other equestrian disciplines in this example) is a well known way of making needed change actually happen, while avoiding the pitfalls that can happen in terms of lots of infighting during these situations.

[aredhel]

It is a better and safer approach. And one advantage of lowering the fences (in addition to the added safety margin) is that they increase the size of the pool of horses that can be used. Most schoolies can jump 3’, but horses which can jump 4’+ safely are much rarer. Increase the number of horses in the pool, and it might be possible to have only one rider per horse, which eliminates the problem of Rider #2 getting stuck with a brain-fried animal courtesy of bad handling by Rider #1.