Modern Pentathalon

Enemy here? No.

Possibly the enemy to the sport’s longevity? Yup.

Rollkur rules weren’t imposed by people practising rollkur.

Helmet rules weren’t changed by whiny upper level dressage riders spouting how THEY were fine without helmets.

XC rules are gradually changing by a combination of those within the sport and because of the general uproar about horses dying.

Pentathlon has a choice at this point, but it has to change. And it’s not going to change by people who say “We CAN’T” and “it’s tradition” and “that won’t work” and “some of the riders are really good” and all the other varieties of crap that people spout when they are afraid of change and can’t see past the distress of change to something better for riders, horses and spectators.

If the equestrian community is shocked and appalled by what occurred at the Olympics, something is indeed smelly and no amount of saying everything is ok and maybe we can change a bit but we can’t change that or that or that is going to make it better.

(Yes, as a matter of fact I am in a grumpy mood … but even if I weren’t and wrote it more gently, it would read the same)

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I really appreciate @JER 's contributions and respect her thoughts here. (If I recall correctly, she’s been a member of this board longer than she’s been involved in pentathalon, but in any case she truly is One Of Us.) Like @TwiSedai, I think if approached from the I-like-horses side this is actually a pretty cool sport. And I appreciate JER’s frustration at the people who say, “i know nothing about this sport or the people who do it but I think they should all learn some totally new discipline.”

I’m a little grumpy about Ingrid Klimke, even, suggesting that a 20 minute warmup ride on a strange horse is impossible or unethical. We know this happens all the time - around riders that are experienced and capable. The problem isn’t the test, it is the athletes and their fitness for this test.

There are lots of ways (unfortunately they’ve left a lot of low hanging fruit) to improve the situation. Here are some of mine of which some may be bad but some may be helpful:

  1. Make riding first so people who score well get to be on top of the leaderboard, and people who blow it start at the bottom, and there’s no “oh that horse wrecked my gold medal”. Everyone wants to be in the lead at the end of phase one.
  2. Lower the jumps so that there are more suitable horses and so the consequences of a mistake are less.
  3. Use each horse only once, especially for an important championship, so that riders aren’t penalized by an earlier bad ride (or even for a tired horse). Alternately, add in a period for a professional to ride and assess in between rounds to reset and reevaluate the horses.
  4. Fall of horse or rider should end the round with some sort of Worst Possible score.
  5. Excessive nappiness as seen in the german rider’s case should count as a refusal OR create a reride. Officials who are dedicated to the horses should be allowed to substitute a horse at their own judgement in addition to the rider’s option. Even if the horse finished on an appropriate score, if it appears dangerous or detrimental for the horse to continue (for horse or rider), he should be pulled.
  6. I’d wonder if it’s possible to consider changing the rail down scoring to penalize the rider for EVERY rail that comes down at an obstacle. For a discipline where the horses are sometimes swimming through the jumps, it seems wrong to score the horse that crashed completely through an oxer the same as the horse that tapped a top rail. Counting all the rails that fall, while I realize this varies with different obstacles, would be an objective way to reflect that difference.
  7. Officials should have the option to stop a dangerous ride in progress. Honestly they’re all lucky that horse didn’t hurt that rider or anyone else and that all she lost was a medal (which she might have lost anyway in the last two phases). He seems to be well named in truth. We all can imagine all kinds of scenarios where the horse or rider could have been seriously injured or killed.
  8. At the end of the day our goal is to verify that the athletes can ride safely around. If a 20 minute practice ride on the chosen horse the day before might serve that end, it might be a good option.
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Wow @poltroon, lots of good ideas!

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I suspect Klimke was trying to be diplomatic (or something was perhaps lost in translation? Not sure if the letter was in German). Basically a 20 minutes warm-up before jumping around a course at 1.2m is not an issue for any high level jumper rider, or one of our good equitation kids. But it is a stretch for someone with much less experience.

I do have a lot of my non-riding friends commenting how impossible it must be to get used to a horse in only 20 minutes. As one of my friends said…“If they did this in cycling they’d have more than 20 minutes to set a bike up. A horse is somewhat more complex than a bike.”

I explained that swapping horses, with little or no time to warm-up, is not unheard of in equitation classes, including intercollegiate riding.

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I like the penalties for every rail idea. 60 faults or whatever for a fall like in CC. A little less for a refusal like in showjumping to encourage people to circle to get a better approach.

Plus eliminated as in real showjumping for refusals. So you get a major penalty for not completing the course but are not eliminated from the pentathlon.

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I like all of these but I REALLY like number 1, I’m totally unknowledgeable about the sport but that seems on the surface like it’d be the easiest change that could make a difference.

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@poltroon, thank you for your thoughtful response. You clearly understand how reactivity - replace it with baton twirling! - is not very helpful here.

I will say this again: there are some truly excellent riders in pentathlon. If you have access to Tokyo replays, watch Gus Gustenau in the men’s or Kate French in the women’s. They are outstanding riders. At London, Suzanne Stettinius was in the competition. Many on here will know her. She’s from a totally horsey background and has ridden in the Maryland Hunt Cup.

FYI for those not in the sport, the jump height at competitions will vary depending on many factors including the average ability of the horse pool. Most courses at top level are about 1m. Spreads aren’t big. Everyone knows well in advance that the Olympics is supposed to be built to max specs.

I think changing the order of go - from #1 starts last to #1 starts first - would be a good idea. In Rio, second-round riders were really hurt by having to ride horses that had already been crashed into fences. Not that horses that have crashed through fences should be allowed out again on course.

As someone who has ridden in and coached at numerous pent competitions, I firmly believe the 20-minute 5-jump warm up is fine as it is. The horse has been around the course, you’re not exactly schooling the horse in the warm up - you just want to know if it has an adjustable stride, if it stays straight and whether it prefers the short on long spot. The horse has already gone around the course that day, it knows its job so you don’t want to bug it too much. I don’t think I’ve ever taken more than 3 warm-up jumps.

All this talk about ‘bonding’ is anthropomorphic nonsense. Yes, you bond with a horse you ride regularly in that you work out some kind of partnerships. I don’t know about the rest of you but I’ve owned, trained and ridden horses that didn’t especially like me nor did I especially like but we respected each other and found a way to work together. But in pentathlon or FEI Student or IEA or World University Games, you figure out how the horse likes to go and then you head out on course. It’s not animal cruelty to do it this way. Not by a long shot.

As poltroon suggested (as have I on my other posts), officials should more closely regulate the riding situation. But pentathlon officials are almost always favored insiders who favor their friends and respond to anyone who asks a question by shouting at them. It really is that bad.

For major competitions, FEI course designers are the norm. I don’t think that’s been said here but that’s been the case for some time.

As for those of you who think my mention of the horse fatality in eventing is ‘low’, I guess the fundamental hypocrisy is lost on you. You see a FB or Instagram video or a few pentathlon rides or clips from the worst rides (how many of you actually watched the whole replay?) and then you say ‘No more horses for any of those people!’. That’s pretty damn reactive, especially when your response to another horse fatality in eventing is ‘those things happen’. Out of 36 riders, there were something like 5 or 6 Es. I’m not sure how that differs from many of the 1-1.10m jumper classes I’ve been in - and those are people on their own horses.

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I’m really curious… does anyone know how do the run and swim paces compare to other elites in that sport? Are they swimming/running at a comparable pace to Olympic runners/swimmers ? How about college level division 1? High school? I know running well but idk how to factor in the shooting time that’s intertwined.

I guess I just want to know if the pentathaletes are super elite in every other sport and for some reason are just missing the bar in equestrian or are they typically as novice in all the other sports too…? Does anyone know?

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It’s basic math that will do you in. Pentathlon riders have to practically die to be eliminated. Jumpers are eliminated much more easily. Apples and oranges.

As to the statement about SOME of the Pentathlon riders being good. Um, well, ALL of the riders in actual equestrian disciplines have to be good. ALL of them. Some of them wouldn’t cut it. Some yahoo coming in and knocking all the jumps down in Olympic competition would not last long at that level. Oh wait, they wouldn’t even qualify.

Clean up the rules to put animal welfare first, above all else.
Clean up the officials.
That will start to clean up the sport. Probably in doing so it will also clean out a lot of shitty riders leaving a smaller pool of athletes which is not what any sport wants, right. Start thinking outside the box, and IN 2021 and you might find some answers.

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does anyone know how do the run and swim paces compare to other elites in that sport? Are they swimming/running at a comparable pace to Olympic runners/swimmers ?>>

The speeds are slower, although some athletes are close to national elite level.

However, in fencing, some pentathletes are also international-quality fencers. Fencing is a very difficult, very technical sport that requires much training and top quality coaching. The current men’s world champion, Adam Marosi, has also been national champion in Hungary in epee fencing. Hungary is a total powerhouse in fencing so being national champion is a big deal. And by this I mean he is not fencing champion in pentathlon, he’s fencing champion in straight fencing.

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Hey @JER, have you done eventing or only SJ and pent? Just curious, can’t remember if I’ve seen you talk about it.

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Um, well, ALL of the riders in actual equestrian disciplines have to be good. >>

What? I’ve seen a lot of poor riding at USEF shows. Also in eventing.

I’ve also seen a lot of discussion of poor riding at shows on this forum over the last 20 years. Did that all go poof when you saw a couple of pentathlon rides?

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It’s not like the majority have half-learnt the one they are supposed to have mastered. A new one requiring less actual horsemanship and more in keeping with the supposed roots of the sport should not be much of a stretch for such able athletes to learn.

I used to manage a tack shop. I remember the brother of one of our regulars coming in to be kitted out in tall boots and jacket, the whole nine yards. “I didn’t think you were also a horse person?” “I’m not. I HAVE to ride to do pentathlon.” That sort of conversation sticks 20+ years :confused:

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Do you know around what mile pace they usually run at?

Hey @JER, have you done eventing or only SJ and pent? Just curious, can’t remember if I’ve seen you talk about it.>>

Holy Jeebus.

I’ve been posting on this board for 20+ years. I have a long history in eventing. I’m sure others here will vouch for me.

I don’t post here anymore mostly due to a most unpleasant stalker situation and also an incident in which an alcoholic attorney accused me of killing my horse. The kind of things drunks do when they harbor a grudge and have a few too many. I don’t really need that in my life.

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Whoa, I haven’t been here 20+ years and haven’t seen many of your posts. It was seriously an honest question, so I know where you are coming from. Not an attack on you. I’ve actually been agreeing with you.

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Do you know around what mile pace they usually run at?

The run is 4x800m with shooting in between. Average is about 2:50-3:00 per 800; the fast people are faster than that.

So the officiating is part of why there are so many challenges? Do you think if there were some sort of dangerous riding rules in place (like there are in eventing) that they would even be enforced?

I get it… everyone is piling on Pentathlon right now and we clearly aren’t seeing the broader picture. But good lord… there were LOTS of rounds involving horses crashing through the jumps at the Olympics … that’s so dangerous. Something needs to change in terms of the frequency of that sort of thing, and what happens AFTER a horse crashes through a fence on course.

I hope that makes sense.

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The old board made it more obvious, but remember you can always click on a user’s name to refresh yourself about their history. Yes, JER is old school eventing and old school COTH. It’s a good thing for all of us to have her working with the pentathalon people, she gets it.

As for the officials being corrupt, it seems a simple matter (logistically if not politically :wink: ) to choose a couple of FEI stewards and assign them to the horses to manage rerides, horse safety, etc. They wouldn’t know the pentathaletes and could just be there as horse advocates.

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Is that including the time it takes to shoot? Also that’s the women’s time right? That doesn’t sound that fast… that sounds comparable to high school… no?

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