Modern Pentathalon

So the officiating is part of why there are so many challenges? Do you think if there were some sort of dangerous riding rules in place (like there are in eventing) that they would even be enforced?

The issue is really that UIPM operates as a closed shop. Sycophants are promoted and good people are drummed out quickly. Of course, this makes the UIPM exactly like most sporting federations.

For some real insight into how international federations are run, I suggest everyone go read the report on the governance issues in biathlon. It’s a riveting tale that involves prostitutes and hunting trips.

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Thanks for the interesting answer.

I wonder if SafeSport extends to prostitutes and hunting trips. Yikes.

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It would be comparable to elite high schoolers. You’re in the mix if you can run an 18 minute 5k. Maybe you think that’s slow but remember that you’ve already fenced for 2 1/2 hours, swam a 200m race and rode a showjumping course. So I wouldn’t call it slow.

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I checked out the running times for the women at the Olympics. It’s hard to do a comparison, since they appear to run 800m (half a mile) take a break to shoot, run another 800m, shoot, repeat a few times, rather than run continuously.

But…to provide some context:

If I’m reading the results right, the fastest woman in the run portion at Tokyo ran 10:53 over a total of ~2 miles, split into four 1/2 mile sections, for an average of 5:29 pace. By contrast, Molly Seidel, who placed third in the women’s marathon at Tokyo in dreadfully slow conditions, averaged 5:38 pace over 26.2 miles.

Another example - Courtney Frerichs of the US was second in the 3000m steeplechase (where they have to hurdle solid barriers) at Tokyo with a time of 9:05 - 4:52 pace for roughly the same distance (but with hurdles and without breaks). So much faster.

5:29 pace over 2 miles is not slumming at all. It could get you recruited to run for a Division 1 NCAA program. But it’s very far from Olympic level.

The slower women’s runners are not close to Olympic or NCAA or even good high school level. The slowest runner at Tokyo ran 13:05 for two miles. In riding terms, that’s the equivalent of being able to navigate a 2’6" hunter course.

Building on this - I’m a competitive runner and a former rider who for a time was trying to do both. I learned quickly that I could run and then get on a horse. But running AFTER riding always really sucked. Riding gets your adductors (inner thighs) really tired. Which makes running miserable.

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Ok. You need to understand that Courtney Frerichs runs probably 85-90 miles per week. Molly Seidel trains up to 100+ mile weeks for the marathon.

You can’t train for pentathlon running that volume. You can if you’re only doing running.

FWIW, there were ex-pentathletes in both the women’s marathon and 10000m in Tokyo. These athletes left pentathlon to be full-time runners. So it’s not that the ability isn’t there.

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Honestly, it just seemed quicker to just ask and hear it straight from her, I didn’t think it would be THAT big a deal. I feel weird digging through people’s post histories most of the time. My mistake though, I’m sorry @JER. Didn’t mean to upset you.

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Molly did 130 a week in her marathon build-up.

Agreed. But the question was not about talent, but about current running ability and how it compares. Absolutely, if these athletes focused just on running, they might be quite impressive. Just as if they focused exclusively on riding, they might perform considerably better.

Which goes back to the concern I have that the current Olympic Pentathlon (and I base this not just on watching Tokyo, but also Rio and London) asks too much of riders who only have a limited amount of time to focus on that discipline.

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I can see this causing problems. The jump from 1.0m (especially a non-maxed out 1.0m) to 1.20m is HUGE. The entire ride changes, from the precision and required pace to the way the horse jumps.

It would be highly unusual for a successful 1.0m jumper rider to successfully move up from 1.0m directly to 1.20m for just one show and get around without issues. The ride and confidence needed are just so different.

If pentathlon riders are used to jumping .90m to 1.0m, how are they expected to magically develop the skills to get around a 1.20m course once every four years, especially if they don’t have the equestrian knowledge to know how much more effort needs to go into preparing for that 1.20m ride?

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I agree with this and have discussed this at length with pentathlon people.

There’s also the problem of finding horses to train on for this height. It’s not like barns have an excess of 1.20m packers. In the US, those horses are worth serious money.

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BTW, side note but I really do appreciate your posts and perspective on this sport (which I’ve always been slightly interested in since I have both a riding and running background - it’s just the guns and swords that turn me off…). Even where I gently argue with you I really appreciate the education you are providing.

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No I’m not trying to knock those athletes. I’m just trying to use them to to compare. I would say I was an elite runner in high school… Nowhere near the fastest in my state but I was pretty competitive at the district level and I was in that neighborhood time wise.

I just would think that if your running is comparable to elite high schoolers… shouldn’t the riding be comparable to that too…? IMO the jumps should be at Open level IEA height.

Am I missing something? They’re running as fast as elite high schoolers are but they’re jumping more than a foot higher than the open level IEA height? It just seems like the bar is set higher for equestrian than other sports.

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Noooo definitely not. I ran pretty competitively in high school and was decent so the impressiveness of that time isn’t lost on me. I’m just trying to use these times to compare what level these athletes would be in the individual sport. IMO those are high school elite times but 1.20 is an entire foot higher than the “elite” high school IEA kids.

(And yes obviously those kids are probably jumping higher on their own horses at other horse shows but that’s a different and easier sport when you’re on your own horse)

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Denny Emerson has now weighed in on the Pentathlon situation… he seems to be in alignment with @JER

“ Pentathlon woes

I’ve had maybe a dozen people ask me to say something about how bad the episode was at the Olympic pentathlon, as though I am somehow the go-to person to be critical about all things that smack of horse abuse.

Look—The world is FULL of horses in bad situations. Right this second, somewhere near YOU there are horses without clean water, horses standing in hot fields, covered with flies, no sheds, no trees, no feed, probably skinny and wormy. It is a HUGE list of horse abuse situations, and each one of us needs to do what we can.

But back to the Pentathlon. Sure, bad temper, bad riding, bad behavior—But the thing that gets me is that a couple of days earlier a horse died in eventing, adding to so many horses that have died in eventing over the last few years, and not a peep. Not a murmur. No “Maybe we ought to think of ways to make serious injuries and deaths not be almost “business as usual” in eventing—.”

But yank a horse or slap a horse, and the heavens erupt with indignation----Like where is all that indignation when REAL harm gets done?

I’m not condoning the lousy horsemanship at the Pentathlon, but I would suggest the enraged community should put it into perspective, and not focus on something in a tiny piece of a tiny splinter sport, while managing to ignore the elephant sitting in the corner, the fact that crashing falls are far from rare in ANOTHER and much bigger jumping sport that affects many more horses.

Think about that—?“

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And… Denny followed that up with this post…

“ The Cyclotron and the Employee Parking Lot

There’s a famous business school fable. A company meeting had two items on its agenda, whether or not to purchase a $45,000,000 cyclotron, and whether or not to create a new $500,000. employee parking lot.

Learned scientists and experts explained in vast technical detail the advantages, disadvantages of the cyclotron, and when it was time for discussion, since nobody had a freaking clue, the decision to buy it passed in 45 minutes with little comment. 45 MILLION DOLLARS—

Now the ONE HALF million dollar parking lot—Who gets to park where? Who gets nearer the main entrance?—Earth moving decisions—

FIVE HOURS of intense, passionate wrangling later, the parking lot item passed.
Why do I bring this up?

Read the comments on the Pentathlon fiasco, versus the safety considerations surrounding the many dozens of major injuries and horse and rider deaths surrounding modern eventing.

The Pentathlon frenzy is the parking lot, and eventing safety is the cyclotron.
The first stirs visceral passion. The second is hard to fathom, though it involves thousands more horses and riders. See how it works? We all have opinions about where to park, but we shy away from digging into vast complexities.”

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I agree with this and have discussed this at length with pentathlon people.

There’s also the problem of finding horses to train on for this height. It’s not like barns have an excess of 1.20m packers. In the US, those horses are worth serious money.

I am glad you are going to bat with the pentathlon people over this. Lowering the fence height to 1m makes so much sense, for all sorts of reasons. That plus toughening the penalties for falls, refusals, and completely destroying a fence (as opposed to just pulling down a rail or two) would fix most of the issues. Most of the riders just don’t have the time or means to train enough to jump 1.2m fences safely, so why overface them? It’s better and safer for both the horses and the riders to lower the difficulty level of the equestrian phase to reflect that reality.

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Yes. It sounds somewhat similar to the equitation kids who qualify for the finals at small horse shows with lower, easier courses, and then arrive at the finals to get a nasty shock when they see the real thing.

Except they are usually riding horses they know, and they’ve usually spent a lot of time in the saddle. And they still get eliminated after two refusals, or if they fall off.

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Only if we want a few to drown! :rofl:

Personally, I’d swim the 200 Free before I’d ride a horse I didn’t know over 1.2 m any day. Butterfly? I’ll jump the course.

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I’d be crying and hitting myself if I had to swim a 200 fly.

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Ah yes, the good old whataboutism!

Except it wasn’t just one yank & slap, it was continuously whipping a clearly distressed animal. Beating is the term that should have been used. Have they even seen that video with the German abuser?! The depths people go to excuse a clear abuse :thinking:

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