More on Clinton Anderson

[Foxglove]

Wirt --You hold TEACHERS responsible for the mess they create?

So not fair --there’s free will! If one of my students writes poorly, it may not be because he had ME for a teacher! Maybe he didn’t understand the lesson, or maybe he CHOSE to write poorly for the sake of emphasis.

Do you hold the Spanish teacher responsible if your kid speaks Spanish poorly?

Maybe some of the CA followers don’t listen well, or don’t understand, or CHOOSE to take the lesson in a direction that it was never meant to be taken! One of my psychology students wanted to try an experiment on negative and positive reinforcement on a younger sibling --was that MY FAULT?

Sorry my post was so long --too many years of explaining things three different ways . . .Wirt – post some videos of your horses working – you’re an up in the bridle kind of person --what does that mean? I am definitely NOT an up in the bridle kind of person --I want my horses head where he’d carry it naturally --and there’s a lot of “up in the bridle” that doesn’t look natural to me in dressage --not that it isn’t good or bad --just doesn’t look natural --as a matter of fact, it looks as unnatural as peanut rolling WP horses -only the other direction.

Once again, if CA is so bad, what are you suggesting is better? You and your methods? Show me!

Foxglove

[csaper58]

Foxglove, Proud owner of a Morgan myself, brushing and braiding all that hair is my therapy. I still want mention of a horse’s structure and soundness in an advert.

Wirt, CA can not be held responsible for what folks do with the horses they buy from him. The brand means he bred it. Anything the seller says must be taken with a grain of salt, as they are trying to make $ off the horse.

Pointing out how badly you think someone else does something is not constructive. Do things the way you think is right, if you are right people will eventually realize it .

[Stefon]

While new to all this, I do agree with the ‘take a little of, a little of that’ style of teaching, and adjusting to the individual horse. Some need more work in certain areas than others.
I do disagree with the extreme neck and head flexing. If you look at the horse just walking without a rider, you can see the permanent bend on the neck near the head. If training methods cause a permanent physical change, that’s not good. I liken it to people whose jobs have repetitive movements. They may feel fine in the short run, but later in life if you’ve spent 20 years picking up a 2lb object with your right hand and putting it on a higher shelf, you are going to have problems with that shoulder.

[Wirt]

They way I understand it, if a horse is called a Clinton Anderson Signature horse, it means it went through his school regime, and he puts his stamp and approval on it, literally.

If a Spanish teacher teaches the students incorrect grammar, and bad pronunciations, or faulty translations, then yes, that teacher is absolutely responsible for the confusion and incorrectness they have instilled in the students.

[Foxglove]

Following Wirt’s logic there would be no progress in the human race. We would all continue to do exactly the wrong (and right) things our teachers taught us. When I learned French in school, I learned from the teacher how to say the words and the proper grammar. Imagine my French-speaking grandmother’s horror when after a meal I said in my best high school French, “I’m full.” I had no idea (never taught) that the French “I’m full” is an idiomatic way of saying “I’m pregnant.” (Like American “bun in the oven.”) --So I MADE A MISTAKE by following what the teacher told me.

Did I continue to make the mistake? Heck no! I found MYSELF a book on French Idioms and LEARNED what to say and not say.

The French teacher did the best she could in the time she had --was she responsible for my mistake? No – no one was. Language, like horse training, is too broad of a topic for one teacher to cover in one class.

Students START to learn --then those who want to become experts continue ON THEIR OWN learning and learning. Anyone who honestly thinks that CA or anyone is the beginning and end of all horse knowledge ( and you seem to be one who thinks people do) --are short changing the basic ability of people to advance with instruction, and without.

Foxglove (Gesh, do I ever write a short answer?)

[PeanutButterPony]

I was suitably amused by the 15K pacer I mean TWH

[Foxtrot_s]

Back to you, Foxglove - you are obviously a person with a western perspective.
Dressage horses, through amazing selective breeding, have a naturally high headset, the neck is set on that way, as do jumpers, so they can do the specialized job they are bred to do.
Western horses are not bred like that, they have other priorities.

In my own horse, she starts out with her head lower in the warm-up but by the time the ride is done, she is up in the shoulders, and lower in the back with her hocks under her, and it is all done gently and progressively. Her natural way of going is with a higher head carriage even at the walk on a long rein.

[Foxglove]

Once again Wirt you speak with assumptions and in generalities --I started out in a 5 gaited Saddlebred barn, switched to dressage, took up foxhunting, trained, rode, and showed jumpers and hunters, added draft horses to my interests, and pursued that for awhile, learning about driving and working horses in harness, added light horses driving to my bag of tricks, and took up side saddle riding. Went back to flat saddle for awhile, back to dressage, back to hunters. At one point I rode 3 Day but it wasn’t called that at the time (combined training). Only when my grand daughter wanted to ride Western Pleasure (she liked the clothes) did we look into that discipline. A couple of horses later, and she’s decided Ranch Horse is the bomb. Personally, I enjoy riding reiners and that’s what my foxhunter does when he’s not fox hunting. And in a few months, we’re going to try the Shore to Shore Trail Ride and see if we can go 230 miles in eleven days.

Therefore Wirt, you are once again incorrect that I write from a Western Perspective. I write from my perspective.

My Percheron showed both Western and English did dressage and jumped. My first QH showed hunter and reining and dressage and evented. Clearly some confirmation aspects are conducive to certain disciplines --but to lump all dressage horses and all western horses into two groups is not accurate. One need only look at successful ponies on the event circuit to know that big doesn’t necessarily equal better in eventing horses.

I like a horse that stands quietly and doesn’t pull on the bit. Ever. I like a horse that moves off my leg and seat. I like a horse that respects personal space.

If you want yours up on the bit, I’m sure you can find one. There are trainers who train horses to do that.

But back to my question that you keep dodging --Wirt --where do I find your training methods and video of your finished horses so I can see how much better your methods are than CA?

Foxglove

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Foxglove;8173667]
Once again Wirt you speak with assumptions and in generalities --I started out in a 5 gaited Saddlebred barn, switched to dressage, took up foxhunting, trained, rode, and showed jumpers and hunters, added draft horses to my interests, and pursued that for awhile, learning about driving and working horses in harness, added light horses driving to my bag of tricks, and took up side saddle riding. Went back to flat saddle for awhile, back to dressage, back to hunters. At one point I rode 3 Day but it wasn’t called that at the time (combined training). Only when my grand daughter wanted to ride Western Pleasure (she liked the clothes) did we look into that discipline. A couple of horses later, and she’s decided Ranch Horse is the bomb. Personally, I enjoy riding reiners and that’s what my foxhunter does when he’s not fox hunting. And in a few months, we’re going to try the Shore to Shore Trail Ride and see if we can go 230 miles in eleven days.

Therefore Wirt, you are once again incorrect that I write from a Western Perspective. I write from my perspective.

My Percheron showed both Western and English did dressage and jumped. My first QH showed hunter and reining and dressage and evented. Clearly some confirmation aspects are conducive to certain disciplines --but to lump all dressage horses and all western horses into two groups is not accurate. One need only look at successful ponies on the event circuit to know that big doesn’t necessarily equal better in eventing horses.

I like a horse that stands quietly and doesn’t pull on the bit. Ever. I like a horse that moves off my leg and seat. I like a horse that respects personal space.

If you want yours up on the bit, I’m sure you can find one. There are trainers who train horses to do that.

But back to my question that you keep dodging --Wirt --where do I find your training methods and video of your finished horses so I can see how much better your methods are than CA?

Foxglove[/QUOTE]

You have me confused with Foxtrot, I think. I never mentioned your discipline or perspective.
I have many videos of my recent work out there.
But I enjoy my anonymity here.
Besides, I have nothing to prove, and am not in a competition with CA. It isn’t about having better techniques. It is about whether or not you desire the same results, which I don’t. So I don’t even employ those techniques.
So no matter what I did, there would be no comparison to be made, because I do not seek the same results he does, particularly when it comes to his treatment of the head and neck, and the overall over-manipulation of the horse, and the form he makes them work in.

[Foxglove]

Apologies Wirt -did confuse you with Foxtrot. So why the big ax to grind with CA?

(oh, look, I wrote a short post!)

Foxglove

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Foxglove;8173728]
Apologies Wirt -did confuse you with Foxtrot. So why the big ax to grind with CA?

(oh, look, I wrote a short post!)

Foxglove[/QUOTE]

Because hundreds of students and amateurs are imitating something that is very wrong, and bad form. I believe that if it were up to his peers, defining his peers as other clinicians of any note, they would mostly tell him to stop it!

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8173204]
I’ll just have to disagree with the part of Foxgloves post that I read (did not read most of it, too long) but the part where she says she is just a little old lady and does not make her cues forceful enough. You don’t need force or size - as Tom Dorrance showed - A flick of a finger is enough if the horse understands.[/QUOTE]

But you can’t start with the flick of a finger. You start with a bigger cue. Well, no, actually, that’s not right either. You start with a small cue and then you escalate until you get a response. After that, it’s all refining the cue and response. Eventually you end up with a horse who responds to the flick of your finger.

And that’s exactly the progression Foxglove described.

I’ve seen CA in person once (got free tickets). I’ve also seen him on RFD TV, watched a few of his videos, and read bits and pieces of one of his books and his magazine articles. He’s no different from most other “famous” trainers/clinicians of his type - neither entirely useless nor entirely useful. Take what makes sense to you and leave the rest.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8173323]

CA can not be held responsible for what folks do with the horses they buy from him. The brand means he bred it. Anything the seller says must be taken with a grain of salt, as they are trying to make $ off the horse.

Pointing out how badly you think someone else does something is not constructive. Do things the way you think is right, if you are right people will eventually realize it .[/QUOTE]

Do you realize that you have contradicted yourself in these two paragraphs?

1. “What you see the masses doing with Anderson’s methods doesn’t reflect what he does. He may be/is better than that.”

and

2. “Merit outs itself. You’ll know how does things right by how many people follow them/their methods.”

So which is it? Quality is determined by vote and the public knows better from worse? Or the public’s adoption of one’s methods may or may not represent those well?

Just pointing this out so that no one thinks everyone assents to the logic of this point just because is appeared on the interwebz. Which, I take it, some see as a valid argument for Truth.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

I don’t know jack about Clinton Anderson. When you say overflexing, are y’all alluding to that business where the rider hops up and then pulls the mare’s nose around to her sides, right off the bat?

My cockamamie horses do this voluntarily all the time. They’ll balance on three legs, cock up a hind, and scratch their udders with their teeth.

[pook]

The whole NH fad makes me ill but just points out how gullible the public can really be. They would rather play with carrot sticks and giant beach balls than actually lose 50 lbs and learn to ride and have some bloody seat bones on their asses.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

Just wanted to add that not everybody can or wants to ride a fire-breathing dragon, and I can totally see the appeal of these dead-broke horses. There are definitely days when I, a middle-aged re-rider, stand in the barn aisle looking back and forth between the hot Arab mare and the dependable old packer. What do my creaky bones want? The dependable old packer, that’s what. You know what else? I’ll throw a Western saddle on her and embrace the chair seat. There, I said it. EMBRACE THE CHAIR SEAT!

[Bluey]

It is hard to have a sensible discussion on a mostly English forum on western riding, not only because there are as many western ways of riding as there are English ones, but many don’t realize it and tend to lump them all under whatever they are picking on at the time.

The reality is that there are differences in all kinds of riding, not necessarily making any one right and the rest wrong.

Western riders not familiar with dressage find it ugly, the horses stressed and tension all over them and moving oh so wrong.

Then, a dressage rider may think the same of, say roping horses, or the fads in some western types of show performances.

Those that have been around the bend with an open mind understand the differences, may have preferences, but don’t use them to try to make others feel badly for choosing other.

[mvp]

Right… but the hyperbole doesn’t help.

When is a horse a “fire-breathing dragon” and when is he behaving “within normal limits” if he, say, bucks because you bounce on him at the canter?

Look, I don’t feel entitled to have some sherpa drag me up Mount Everest because I Wanna… and I meant to work out to get in shape, but job and family commitments prevented that, so now, here I am in Nepal having paid my money and wanting someone else to help me make up for the work I didn’t do and the humility about by own limits that I didn’t have.

It’s not fair when we do that kind of thing to horses. So long as we can all admit to not wanting to ride really rank horses-- duh-- but don’t get more specific about how much we, as riders, owe the animals we do ride, no one ever has to feel bad about remaining a limited rider. Yay for them, but it comes out of the horse’s hide when he is expected to make up for that.

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;8173807]
I don’t know jack about Clinton Anderson. When you say overflexing, are y’all alluding to that business where the rider hops up and then pulls the mare’s nose around to her sides, right off the bat?

My cockamamie horses do this voluntarily all the time. They’ll balance on three legs, cock up a hind, and scratch their udders with their teeth.[/QUOTE]

No - I don’t know if I speak for others - but I think CA "overflexes’ in that if you watched the video - this filly touches her chin to her chest multiple times - as she has been taught to stay behind the bit, and to curl and flex her neck in extreme manners (while working in various gaits - not trying to scratch her udders).

Here are some pictures of CA working with horses:

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3194/5819623560_acb7f79404_b.jpg

http://www.richardbealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/image.jpg

http://d387n7te6hkkmo.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/090602_Anderson_3549.jpg

http://www.horsechannel.com/images/horse-news-article-images/ca-runaway_400.jpg

http://horse360.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Backing-Up-Clinton-Anderson-Horse-360-Champion.jpg

http://d387n7te6hkkmo.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Anderson200.gif

Do your horses trot and canter around with their heads facing the opposite direction of travel?

I just do not see the need for making a horse snake its head around like that - I guess its part of his “submission” - I have ridden plenty of nice horses, and started a number - but never felt like I needed a horse who’s head could be whipped around to my knee at a canter as if it was attached to a slinky - and not a horse’s neck!

Along the lines of Rolkur - he has his fans, and his detractors.

[NoSuchPerson]

Well that was an unexpected turn. I thought we were talking about Clinton Anderson and then, all of a sudden, we’re talking about how us little old fat ladies shouldn’t be riding.

OooKaay, then.