More on Clinton Anderson

[gaitedincali]

CA rides like a reiner. It’s what most of his background is in, it’s what he likes to show in. His signature horses are his performance dropouts, and he markets those to the top level. Whose going to pay good price for a young reiner that’s been started in a way counter to the industry standard? He wouldn’t be selling to any BNT’s clients anymore if he put his horses up higher in the bridle like Great Basin ranch horses.

At least I’ve never seen him two-hand a cathedral bit and put his horses chin literally on its forearm while loping, like one 3-million dollar NRHA rider I watched warm up. Or draw reins with a cathedral…I think that guy was only a million dollar rider.

I’m not as anti-CA as some on here, but there are parts of his program I dislike. But it does amuse me that people single out a reiner because he rides like a reiner.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8173856]
It is hard to have a sensible discussion on a mostly English forum on western riding, not only because there are as many western ways of riding as there are English ones, but many don’t realize it and tend to lump them all under whatever they are picking on at the time.

The reality is that there are differences in all kinds of riding, not necessarily making any one right and the rest wrong.

Western riders not familiar with dressage find it ugly, the horses stressed and tension all over them and moving oh so wrong.

Then, a dressage rider may think the same of, say roping horses, or the fads in some western types of show performances.

Those that have been around the bend with an open mind understand the differences, may have preferences, but don’t use them to try to make others feel badly for choosing other.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, you seem to suggest that each form of riding is equal to one another, its just matter of where you interest lie, so its all good.
By that logic, big lick horses are just as good as dressage, as a reiner, as a working equitation horse.
But these forms are not equal. Some are un-natural distortions of normal riding and training. It is much more than simply a different discipline. Dressage has developed the freak of rolkur, and it has distorted dressage. Same has happened in reining.
Those photos appsolute posted show some pretty extreme flexing. It is signature CA. And it is not just as good or bad as anything else.
It is the difference between studying painting by Raphael, and a paint by numbers painting. It is not the same, and not equal.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8174018]
Bluey, you seem to suggest that each form of riding is equal to one another, its just matter of where you interest lie, so its all good.
By that logic, big lick horses are just as good as dressage, as a reiner, as a working equitation horse.
But these forms are not equal. Some are un-natural distortions of normal riding and training. It is much more than simply a different discipline. Dressage has developed the freak of rolkur, and it has distorted dressage. Same has happened in reining.
Those photos appsolute posted show some pretty extreme flexing. It is signature CA. And it is not just as good or bad as anything else.
It is the difference between studying painting by Raphael, and a paint by numbers painting. It is not the same, and not equal.[/QUOTE]

Everyone has their own opinion of what is right, as it should be.

I expect whatever you do I may find not to my taste and definitively some of it wrong, but what I think doesn’t matter to you and it should not.

I don’t like at all any gaited horses, they move absurdly, but would not want to tell all those gaited people that, if that is what floats their boat.

Now, if they abuse horses to get that action, then excuse me, anyone would object to that, so don’t go there with those extremes.
There are plenty of gaited horse people that don’t.

When it comes to riding the way someone wants to ride, just because we think this or that is a better way is ok if it is our opinion, but doesn’t give us the right to be their judge and jury.

[Showbizz]

I didn’t read much past the first page, but I thought this horse showed tons of expression out of the arena. Sure, she was “meh” in the arena, but most horses who are schooled there extensively are. When I read “robot” I was expecting to see no expression at all. While I don’t agree with all of the “flexing”, it’s the way the reining horse world has gone and that’s not CA’s fault. In fact, he’s hardly considered a “big gun” in that world.

[kdow]

The way she’s carrying her head and neck looks weird to me. I mean, I’ve seen horses bred to have a lower head carriage naturally, and while that isn’t to my taste it still looks like that’s normal for that horse. But hers seems to have a weird sort of bend in it at the top but well back from the poll? That just looks kind of not right, skeletally, to me?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;8173807]
I don’t know jack about Clinton Anderson. When you say overflexing, are y’all alluding to that business where the rider hops up and then pulls the mare’s nose around to her sides, right off the bat?

My cockamamie horses do this voluntarily all the time. They’ll balance on three legs, cock up a hind, and scratch their udders with their teeth.[/QUOTE]

They don’t do this while moving. They don’t do this for prolonged periods. And many horses-- particularly those with a lot of mileage on their body-- don’t do this.

What CA does with horses really is hard on their body. How can you watch his videos and your horses in the field and claim those moves are similar?

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8174055]
Everyone has their own opinion of what is right, as it should be.

I expect whatever you do I may find not to my taste and definitively some of it wrong, but what I think doesn’t matter to you and it should not.

I don’t like at all any gaited horses, they move absurdly, but would not want to tell all those gaited people that, if that is what floats their boat.

Now, if they abuse horses to get that action, then excuse me, anyone would object to that, so don’t go there with those extremes.
There are plenty of gaited horse people that don’t.

When it comes to riding the way someone wants to ride, just because we think this or that is a better way is ok if it is our opinion, but doesn’t give us the right to be their judge and jury.[/QUOTE]

You still don’t get it. It is not just another way to ride. It is abusive.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8174258]
You still don’t get it. It is not just another way to ride. It is abusive.[/QUOTE]

Maybe consider that it is not I who “doesn’t get it”?

I finally had time to look at the video and that is a very nicely started filly, now to go on teaching her whatever.
She is definitely not a reiner yet, doesn’t has the right training for that, at least doesn’t show it under those riders, if that is what she is supposed to be, but looks more like a trail or such type horse.

I am not sure you know what abuse really is if you call that video abuse, because nothing in that video is abuse, a very serious word to use about someone.
Just not liking the way someone rides or trains in itself is not reason to call it abusive.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=kdow;8174254]
The way she’s carrying her head and neck looks weird to me. I mean, I’ve seen horses bred to have a lower head carriage naturally, and while that isn’t to my taste it still looks like that’s normal for that horse. But hers seems to have a weird sort of bend in it at the top but well back from the poll? That just looks kind of not right, skeletally, to me?[/QUOTE]

That is true, generally horses that give to the bit properly have a hinge in the top of the neck and then move the whole neck smoothly in all directions.

Then there are those that cheat on you, lose the energy a horse creates behind and comes over their back to end at a balancing head by bending somewhere below the top, about the third or fourth vertebra.
May horse overflexed do that as a defense mechanism, especially if the rider doesn’t know about it and keeps overflexing without realizing that is happening, that is considered an evasion.

That is one more reason why all that overflexing, especially with the horse just standing parked there, is counterproductive to a horse that works properly over their back.

You can see that in dressage horses also and it is a very hard to correct bad habit.

There is plenty of other to comment there, but so is in most any video anyone presents, is how we learn to have an educated eye, to see what is going on and what is good or could be better.

Maybe not the place to do so with a horse someone else is posting for sale, because what we may think is just one more opinion, that should not detract from what someone else may like or even prefer in their horse.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8174267]
Maybe consider that it is not I who “doesn’t get it”?

I finally had time to look at the video and that is a very nicely started filly, now to go on teaching her whatever.
She is definitely not a reiner yet, doesn’t has the right training for that, at least doesn’t show it under those riders, if that is what she is supposed to be, but looks more like a trail or such type horse.

I am not sure you know what abuse really is if you call that video abuse, because nothing in that video is abuse, a very serious word to use about someone.
Just not liking the way someone rides or trains in itself is not reason to call it abusive.[/QUOTE]

I am referring to the twisting of the neck. The pulling of the horse’s head to the knee, while loping or trotting sideways. The head bent to the knees, while still forced to go forward and sideways. These are the halmarks of CA riding. Only a few moments of it in that video.
Some abuse is some act of cruelty that draws blood or break bones in the moment.
Other forms are systematic, relentless miss-use of a horses body, which over long periods of time cause even worse damage.That is the kind of abuse I am talking about.

As far as that 3 year old in the sale video, she is pretty much done. Not many more places you can take her from there. Except maybe leave her the hell alone for a year. She doesn’t do anything but be gentle and ignore external stimuli. She doesn’t stop well, you never see her change leads. She is a reining reject, is what she is. The rider, takes the bridle off, but then immediately jumps off to do something else. She does some tricks. I don’t know what that supposed to prove $30,000?!!? Winning reiners and cowhorses often don’t get that.
There are hundreds of well started well broke bomb proof horses out there for under 10,000$. They just don’t have the signature brand on them.
It just a bunch of crap, dressed up as a diamond.

[csaper58]

Just to clarify, the folks at HorsePerfection (who have the CA horse for sale in the original post) describe that horse as a ‘CA Performance Horse’ on their web site, while the blurb under the you tube video calls the horse a ‘CA Signature Horse’.

I tend to believe at 3yrs it is ‘Performance horse’, which is one that was bred and started at his ranch, most likely by a student.

A ‘Signature Horse’ has a lot more education, and would be older.

I don’t think you can blame CA because a person has purchased a horse that his program started, and now they are trying to make big bucks off it.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8174349]
Just to clarify, the folks at HorsePerfection (who have the CA horse for sale in the original post) describe that horse as a ‘CA Performance Horse’ on their web site, while the blurb under the you tube video calls the horse a ‘CA Signature Horse’.

I tend to believe at 3yrs it is ‘Performance horse’, which is one that was bred and started at his ranch, most likely by a student.

A ‘Signature Horse’ has a lot more education, and would be older.

I don’t think you can blame CA because a person has purchased a horse that his program started, and now they are trying to make big bucks off it.[/QUOTE]

I agree, that one video is the wrong one to use to bash Clinton Anderson and his training and call that training abuse.

[aktill]

https://www.facebook.com/WesternHorseman/photos/a.99871507938.94322.96963522938/10152637447182939/?type=1

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

@ Appsolute I tried to watch the sales video but I live in a crack between the internets so only made it to the first few frames where the rider was pulling the horse’s nose around to the stirrups, then the connection timed out. Your photos were helpful.

They don’t ride’em like that all the time, though, right? It’s just a little exercise? It does look a little odd, I have to say. Is it perhaps one of those training methods that maybe serves a limited purpose in the hands of a nuanced professional, but can go awry when it becomes a fad among unseasoned acolytes?

I don’t see the harm if the horses aren’t physically tortured, though. As others have pointed out, certain of those exaggerated dressage moves can look pretty ridiculous and appear to serve no purpose. Spanish walk, for instance. As far as I know, it doesn’t injure the horse, though.

As far as fire-breathing dragons, I get that many riders prefer a more challenging ride. But once a gal gets old and arthritic and osteopenic and un-spry, she may begin to look more fondly upon the simple, docile, uncomplicated trail horse, such as those that Clinton Anderson appears to overcharge for. I do not suggest that she should just lump herself up there, recline the Barcalounger, and toss back martinis while her poor horse struggles up a mountain. But it is certainly possible to go-for-a-ride without having to work so hard, and if no horses are harmed, what’s the big whoop?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;8174588]

As far as fire-breathing dragons, I get that many riders prefer a more challenging ride. But once a gal gets old and arthritic and osteopenic and un-spry, she may begin to look more fondly upon the simple, docile, uncomplicated trail horse, such as those that Clinton Anderson appears to overcharge for. I do not suggest that she should just lump herself up there, recline the Barcalounger, and toss back martinis while her poor horse struggles up a mountain. But it is certainly possible to go-for-a-ride without having to work so hard, and if no horses are harmed, what’s the big whoop?[/QUOTE]

I don’t see a safe ride, though. I see a horse who’s been taught to rubberneck and get behind the bit.

My first trail horse was like that. He was really brave and a nice fellow and seemed perfect for a white-knuckled adult novice - but when he’d had enough he’d evade by overflexing at the poll and getting behind the bit and I suddenly had no steering. :eek:

I am also wary of horses who’ve learned to go without looking where they’re going, for obvious reasons.

I didn’t watch more than the first few minutes of the sale video (which seemed to show a nice little mare). I’m going by the still shots.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Showbizz;8174205]
I didn’t read much past the first page, but I thought this horse showed tons of expression out of the arena. Sure, she was “meh” in the arena, but most horses who are schooled there extensively are. When I read “robot” I was expecting to see no expression at all. While I don’t agree with all of the “flexing”, it’s the way the reining horse world has gone and that’s not CA’s fault. In fact, he’s hardly considered a “big gun” in that world.[/QUOTE]

Same… I saw tons of expression in what appears to be a very nice mare. I don’t agree with CA in terms of manhandling but that is a nice horse and not at all a ‘robot’. In fact… in the ring she looks quite unhappy, which is the opposite of a robot… out in the field she looks less miserable.

[TWH_Girl]

@Bluey;8174055

I don’t like at all any gaited horses, they move absurdly, but would not want to tell all those gaited people that, if that is what floats their boat.

Too late, you already did. Love the use of “all those gaited people”. WOW…sounds like judge and jury to me.

[cowboymom]

No kidding, way to insult a vast branch of horse people, Bluey. The way you choose to say things really puts people off. I hope you’re better in person that you are online! :lol:

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;8174588]
@ Appsolute I tried to watch the sales video but I live in a crack between the internets so only made it to the first few frames where the rider was pulling the horse’s nose around to the stirrups, then the connection timed out. Your photos were helpful.

They don’t ride’em like that all the time, though, right? It’s just a little exercise? It does look a little odd, I have to say.[/QUOTE]

The gal who took this PHOTO remarked:

I watched Clinton Anderson warming his horse up before a demonstration. I was absolutely appalled by his riding: it was a very hot day (at least 85 degrees), he rode his horse in an extreme rollkur frame and cantered his horse for about 40 minutes without giving it a break.

CA seems to be a BIG fan of all of this neck bending, or “lateral flexion” has he calls it.

This picture is from an article called “3 Trail-Training Exercises” You may wonder, what is the FIRST lesson for trail training? Why lateral flexion of course! Gotta make sure you can get that nose to your knee before hitting the trail.

Here is an article on WHY CA seems to feel that the horse’s head needs to be back at your knee…

Teach Your Horse Lateral Flexion with Top Horse Trainer Clinton Anderson

"Horses don’t have hard mouths; they have hard, stiff bodies. The softer you can get your horse through his five body parts (head and neck, poll, shoulders, ribcage, and hindquarters) the softer he’ll feel in your hands, and the more responsive he will be overall.

You can work on getting your horse soft and supple through his head and neck by teaching him to flex from side to side. If you don’t work on lateral flexion, your horse will tend to lean against rein pressure and fight you."

Honestly, I don’t do a lot of this bringing my horse’s head around to my knee stuff. Carrot stretches yes, and occasional stretch under saddle yes. MODERATE (not this extreme) bending, of course… but I do not agree with CA that you need to rolkur your horse otherwise it will be hard mouthed.

More examples of CA’s favorite training method.

http://d387n7te6hkkmo.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/OPENER-AUG11.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/27/63499047_ebc605fa5e.jpg

[Plumcreek]

I also saw a very nice horse out of the arena, and one that would not be hard to fix through the body inside the arena. I would buy that horse, minus a zero.

However, the people that WILL buy that horse for the price do not worry about correct carriage or everything else this thread is bitching about. They are beginner to moderate riders who want and need a safe horse that will take them wherever - period. Plus one that is good looking and will turn and stop when asked. Seems like that video is very well targeted to those buyers.

I am surely not a CA fan, but obviously he has tapped a big market with money to spend.