More on Clinton Anderson

[cowboymom]

CA and the way many many reiners ride is abusive to horses, IMO. Comparable to tiedowns too tight, flashing too tight, harsh bits used incorrectly, riding on their kidneys, ect.

A real horse person would see that clear as day.

Crone, I totally get what you’re saying but CA isn’t the answer. There are guys in cowboy hats that know how to gentle and train a horse effectively and safely and kindly. They do sometimes teach a one-rein stop to keep the rider safe if a rider is not prepared to buck out a young or spoiled horse even though it’s not something they generally use themselves. What CA is doing has nothing to do with a one rein stop or flexation and giving to the bit or lateral pressure.

It’s been said a couple times here “CA and those like him” and I really hope some aren’t trying to throw CA in the same bin as all western trainers, Stacey Westfall, Chris Cox, Buck, ect… if someone can’t see the difference between the CA and PP group and them then they aren’t remotely qualified to speak on the subject.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8174018]
Bluey, you seem to suggest that each form of riding is equal to one another, its just matter of where you interest lie, so its all good.
By that logic, big lick horses are just as good as dressage, as a reiner, as a working equitation horse.
But these forms are not equal. Some are un-natural distortions of normal riding and training. It is much more than simply a different discipline. Dressage has developed the freak of rolkur, and it has distorted dressage. Same has happened in reining.
Those photos appsolute posted show some pretty extreme flexing. It is signature CA. And it is not just as good or bad as anything else.
It is the difference between studying painting by Raphael, and a paint by numbers painting. It is not the same, and not equal.[/QUOTE]

@TWH Girl;8174840

Too late, you already did. Love the use of “all those gaited people”. WOW…sounds like judge and jury to me.

@cowboymom;8174916

No kidding, way to insult a vast branch of horse people, Bluey. The way you choose to say things really puts people off. I hope you’re better in person that you are online! :lol:

I see what you are objecting to, but my intent, sarcasm, was taken out of context.

If you re-read the post I was responding to, you will understand that I was mimicking that kind of mind set and speaking to it.
Then explaining that of course I don’t, as my post clearly said, make myself judge of others for what horses they choose.

I think that some choose to take the first part and get offended, ignoring the rest of what I was saying.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

Bluey is consistently one of the more measured and sensible voices on this board. All she is saying is different strokes for different fokes. Live and let live. It takes all kinds. Whatever blows your skirt up.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=The Crone of Cottonmouth County;8175128]
Bluey is consistently one of the more measured and sensible voices on this board. All she is saying is different strokes for different fokes. Live and let live. It takes all kinds. Whatever blows your skirt up.[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much, but I do understand why someone that loves gaited horses would take offense first, before really thinking why that was said as it was stated.
I should have made my intent even more clear, as some do, putting (sarcasm) behind that statement, thought about it, but didn’t.
Some times, that six sense is there for a reason.
I ignored it there at my own peril because I was in a hurry.

I too stick my foot in my mouth some times, but thanks for understanding what I meant to say, I appreciate it.

As for Clinton Anderson, many trainers follow some of what he teaches, that I don’t like, how quick he is to correct horses and keep them on their toes, how he adds energy a bit too fiercely and then tones it down too fast, so horses have to just worry too much.

Some teachers teach by strict attention, others by imagery, some are more effective, others less.
All types of teachers fit some students more than others and all get their students taught.

I don’t like Clinton’s ways, but others do.
I know good trainers that do, without being extreme about it, just adapt some of it to suit them.
What I would not call that kind of training is abusive, keeping in mind that any kind of training can be taken to abusive extremes, Clinton’s also.

I didn’t think anyone went to any abusive extremes in that sale video, but that is my opinion only.

[cowboymom]

Right, because it’s always the reader’s fault and not your own, Bluey. You’re so predictable.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8175159]
Right, because it’s always the reader’s fault and not your own, Bluey. You’re so predictable.[/QUOTE]

Right, I don’t always explain myself right.
Then, readers some times read to find fault.

I just said it was my fault, if you re-read, maybe you will notice that?

Back to horse training, not how to post to suit everyone.

I don’t like any of that training where bopping horses around is the norm.
It is effective, many like that and get horses trained with that.

I learned thru other methods, where to have a horse NOT overreacting and scooting around was the mark of a good trainer.
If you could not train smoothly, you were demoted to cleaning stalls only or flunked the riding instructor program.

Anyone will train to whatever standards there are out there to train and horses do fine either way, they are as resilient as humans are.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8175183]

Anyone will train to whatever standards there are out there to train and horses do fine either way, they are as resilient as humans are.[/QUOTE]

No, they don’t do fine either way. They end up lame before what should be the prime of their lives. They have neurologic issues and have to be put down at a young age. The ones who can’t or won’t take rough training end up sent down the road.

I have no idea where you get the idea that live and let live is in the horse’s best interest when abusive tactics abound (I’m not just talking CA here, I’m talking all sorts of abuse in all sorts of disciplines).

[mvp]

[QUOTE=gaitedincali;8173949]
CA rides like a reiner. It’s what most of his background is in, it’s what he likes to show in. His signature horses are his performance dropouts, and he markets those to the top level. Whose going to pay good price for a young reiner that’s been started in a way counter to the industry standard? He wouldn’t be selling to any BNT’s clients anymore if he put his horses up higher in the bridle like Great Basin ranch horses.

At least I’ve never seen him two-hand a cathedral bit and put his horses chin literally on its forearm while loping, like one 3-million dollar NRHA rider I watched warm up. Or draw reins with a cathedral…I think that guy was only a million dollar rider.

I’m not as anti-CA as some on here, but there are parts of his program I dislike. But it does amuse me that people single out a reiner because he rides like a reiner.[/QUOTE]

Reiners do that? I had no idea. I can muster some more contemptuous hate to spread around if need be (lol). Anderson doesn’t need to be the sole target.

Those uses of the cathedral bit are quite surprising to me-- again, an outsider to reining and really sophisticated westerner show disciplines.

[TWH_Girl]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8175138]
Thank you very much, but I do understand why someone that loves gaited horses would take offense first, before really thinking why that was said as it was stated.
I should have made my intent even more clear, as some do, putting (sarcasm) behind that statement, thought about it, but didn’t.
Some times, that six sense is there for a reason.
I ignored it there at my own peril because I was in a hurry.

I too stick my foot in my mouth some times, but thanks for understanding what I meant to say, I appreciate it.

As for Clinton Anderson, many trainers follow some of what he teaches, that I don’t like, how quick he is to correct horses and keep them on their toes, how he adds energy a bit too fiercely and then tones it down too fast, so horses have to just worry too much.

Some teachers teach by strict attention, others by imagery, some are more effective, others less.
All types of teachers fit some students more than others and all get their students taught.

I don’t like Clinton’s ways, but others do.
I know good trainers that do, without being extreme about it, just adapt some of it to suit them.
What I would not call that kind of training is abusive, keeping in mind that any kind of training can be taken to abusive extremes, Clinton’s also.

I didn’t think anyone went to any abusive extremes in that sale video, but that is my opinion only.[/QUOTE]

I concur and really agree with you almost always… that’s why I was very :eek:and :(. I love my Walkers and have ridden lots of horses but I keep coming back to them every single time. So calm, friendly and lovely and I think they move beautifully not absurdly. Not that this thread is about Walkers but I have to stand up for them when needed. They get a bad rap but are absolutely wonderful…

[beau159]

Might as well throw horse racing under the bus too, while the bus is driving onto page 4. (I must say, this has certainly been an entertaining read on my lunch break!)

Retiring the horse at age 4 or 5 after their body has been used up is just not right.

Anti-horse-racing.

[Wirt]

“You can work on getting your horse soft and supple through his head and neck by teaching him to flex from side to side. If you don’t work on lateral flexion, your horse will tend to lean against rein pressure and fight you.”

This is just an example of irresponsible teaching. Lateral work actually has nothing to do with the neck. In fact, it is to develop straightness and evenness. If CA had bothered to actually study any thing from classical training, where lateral work was invented a couple of hundred years ago.
The statement that otherwise they will fight you speaks volumes. If this suppling of the head and neck was so effective, then it would not need to be repeated relentlessly in the manner he does it. No, the horse dare not take even the slightest contact. Its, give me you head, give me your head, give me your head, relentlessly. Yes, because you don’t have anything else, and the horse would really like to resist him, but they don’t dare.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8175299]
“You can work on getting your horse soft and supple through his head and neck by teaching him to flex from side to side. If you don’t work on lateral flexion, your horse will tend to lean against rein pressure and fight you.”

This is just an example of irresponsible teaching. Lateral work actually has nothing to do with the neck. In fact, it is to develop straightness and evenness. If CA had bothered to actually study any thing from classical training, where lateral work was invented a couple of hundred years ago.
The statement that otherwise they will fight you speaks volumes. If this suppling of the head and neck was so effective, then it would not need to be repeated relentlessly in the manner he does it. No, the horse dare not take even the slightest contact. Its, give me you head, give me your head, give me your head, relentlessly. Yes, because you don’t have anything else, and the horse would really like to resist him, but they don’t dare.[/QUOTE]

Practically all those NH type trainers are lacking in the basics of the technical aspects of riding English riding depends.

We started commenting on that decades ago, when the Parelli/Hunt and a few others started with the cowboy clinics.

I already explained once how Ray Hunt tried to teach a filly in a way too large cheap, stiff rawhide bosal for her, with a few weeks of riding, that the cowboy could not get to back, at a horsemanship clinic.
He told the cowboy to take a good hold and ran at her, windmilling his arms.
She sold out, sideways, almost dumping the cowboy, that was not expecting that, forget backing.
Ray tried that a couple more times, until the filly was not letting that maniac anywhere near her and then told the cowboy “she needed more work before learning to back”.
Really?

I am sure later Mr Hunt had learned better ways and helped many people equally clueless, but yes, there is much the old type western trainers didn’t know then and just winged along.

Now, that was then, today, western trainers are becoming more and more sophisticated and cross training, with EVERYONE learning from it.

English trainers, if they learn some western ways, they may learn a lightness they never imagine can be there, that may not feel correct to the English way of riding, but it is a treat in itself to any good horseman open to the differences.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8175299]
“You can work on getting your horse soft and supple through his head and neck by teaching him to flex from side to side. If you don’t work on lateral flexion, your horse will tend to lean against rein pressure and fight you.”

This is just an example of irresponsible teaching. Lateral work actually has nothing to do with the neck. In fact, it is to develop straightness and evenness. If CA had bothered to actually study any thing from classical training, where lateral work was invented a couple of hundred years ago.
The statement that otherwise they will fight you speaks volumes. If this suppling of the head and neck was so effective, then it would not need to be repeated relentlessly in the manner he does it. No, the horse dare not take even the slightest contact. Its, give me you head, give me your head, give me your head, relentlessly. Yes, because you don’t have anything else, and the horse would really like to resist him, but they don’t dare.[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard those “flexions” described as “headlock and nuggie horsemanship”. You get submission, but it’s not the willing submission that other people aspire to.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=TWH Girl;8175214]
I concur and really agree with you almost always… that’s why I was very :eek:and :(. I love my Walkers and have ridden lots of horses but I keep coming back to them every single time. So calm, friendly and lovely and I think they move beautifully not absurdly. Not that this thread is about Walkers but I have to stand up for them when needed. They get a bad rap but are absolutely wonderful… :D[/QUOTE]

I have ridden a few old time plain walkers.
They moved like any other horse, except they paced.
That is not what I meant by gaited horses with strange ways of going, the saddlebreds and the overly high stepping show walkers of the big lick videos.
Then, plenty of saddlebred people have stated what a thrill it is to gait down the road in them and I think they do have a very good point.

Just like with western horses, gaited horses come in many kinds of gaits and training for them.

[propspony]

@cowboymom;8175022

CA and the way many many reiners ride is abusive to horses, IMO. Comparable to tiedowns too tight, flashing too tight, harsh bits used incorrectly, riding on their kidneys, ect.

A real horse person would see that clear as day.

A million times this. What reining has become, makes me physically ill. LOOK at these horses. I mean really LOOK at them. Look at what is going on. You think they have smooth snaffles in their mouths? Think again. You think they have an “out” for when they do something correctly? Think again.

These are some of the very top trainers in the world. This is what they are doing in a VERY public warm up pen. What do you think happens NOT in a public warm up pen? Do those horses look happy? Or do they look like they’ve been conditioned to just take the punishment that’s being meted out, even though they try to do what is wanted, and they can’t physically do more, and they’re resigned to the pain? I imagine a cathedral or correction bit feels GREAT when yanked like that. I mean, that’s s*** you do in a last ditch effort to stop a bolter, and those horses have that done to them every minute of every ride.

But, hey… those are big time trainers, they are infallible, and I’m a peon that knows nothing.

Well, I know damn well I’d never put my horse through that in the name of “training” World Cup or no.

Tom McCutcheon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh0cvIA8pk8

Martin Muehlstaetter:
https://youtu.be/16M_FpXaEh4

[Hunterkid]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8175299]
“You can work on getting your horse soft and supple through his head and neck by teaching him to flex from side to side. If you don’t work on lateral flexion, your horse will tend to lean against rein pressure and fight you.”

This is just an example of irresponsible teaching. Lateral work actually has nothing to do with the neck. In fact, it is to develop straightness and evenness. If CA had bothered to actually study any thing from classical training, where lateral work was invented a couple of hundred years ago.
The statement that otherwise they will fight you speaks volumes. If this suppling of the head and neck was so effective, then it would not need to be repeated relentlessly in the manner he does it. No, the horse dare not take even the slightest contact. Its, give me you head, give me your head, give me your head, relentlessly. Yes, because you don’t have anything else, and the horse would really like to resist him, but they don’t dare.[/QUOTE]

I’m confused by your comment on this. It seems he is talking about lateral flexion not lateral work, big difference!

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

I think we can all agree that any training method that causes actual physical pain or lasting damage is a non-starter.

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=aktill;8175360]
I’ve heard those “flexions” described as “headlock and nuggie horsemanship”. You get submission, but it’s not the willing submission that other people aspire to.[/QUOTE]

This is brilliant. With your permission, I’m totally going to use this phrase.

[aktill]

Not mine, credit Josh Nichol, but go ahead His ability to create a turn of phrase is always entertaining.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Hunterkid;8175464]
I’m confused by your comment on this. It seems he is talking about lateral flexion not lateral work, big difference![/QUOTE]

You see, that is the problem. There should not be a difference. But an entire generation or two of young horseman have learned that you must flex the neck, and that is being called “lateral flexion”. But it is not correct. It has only been invented by the modern reining class. It has no other practical use, other than what has become a popular fad. There is no benefit from continuously disconnecting the head and neck from the body. What we should be doing is lateral work with the flexion coming just behind the ears, and not breaking the horse at the shoulder or half way down the neck. That has withstood the test of time over several hundred years… This modern invention of reining is not an improvement on movement.