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Western
#81

[QUOTE=Wirt;8175737]
You see, that is the problem. There should not be a difference. But an entire generation or two of young horseman have learned that you must flex the neck, and that is being called “lateral flexion”. But it is not correct. It has only been invented by the modern reining class. It has no other practical use, other than what has become a popular fad. There is no benefit from continuously disconnecting the head and neck from the body. What we should be doing is lateral work with the flexion coming just behind the ears, and not breaking the horse at the shoulder or half way down the neck. That has withstood the test of time over several hundred years… This modern invention of reining is not an improvement on movement.[/QUOTE]

technically, it is an oxymoron but that is another thing… lateral is side to side, flexion is up/down…

lateral work is COMPLETELY different in every imaginable aspect than “lateral flexion”… lateral work focuses on straightness and correctness and balance… whatever this lateral flexion is seems to focus entirely on where the head and neck is.

#82

“Flexion” is often used to soften a horses neck when he uses it to push against the bit. It is effective for horses with tube shaped muscular necks, who lock them against the contact. Not a way of life though. This is often referred to as “lateral flexion”; when you ask the horse to flex his neck sideways to release tense muscles.

#83

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8175159]
Right, because it’s always the reader’s fault and not your own, Bluey. You’re so predictable.[/QUOTE]

You know what? That’s uncalled for.

I’m genuinely curious…what makes you all such authorities on the training of reining horses? Have you all brought any up? Shown any successfully? Now or in the past? Bred any? What have been the results of all your knowledge on training and showing reining horses?

It’s been a long time since I’ve shown reiners, but I can guarantee, most of what you (Wirt) are advocating as “correct” training for a reiner is just plain wrong. It was wrong 40 years ago, and it’s wrong today.

As with any discipline, training and showing evolves, whether you think it’s good or bad. I think that’s what Bluey is saying. If you think your method is so RIGHT, then show us your great results. I’m waiting…

#84

Well, I don’t have any lame, over-flexed, mouth sore, dead head burned out horses.

I don’t show in reining, I don’t compete my horses in any way. Hence, nobody else’s opinion but my own matters for my horses.

I can see and I have judgement and I have watched reining trainers grab grab grabbing at a horse’s face and I’ve talked to very very reputable horsemanship trainers that do not respect reining overall b/c it burns out horses minds and I have a personal preference on how a horse should be treated when they’re doing their jobs. So, sorry, Charlie, I don’t have any trophies or ribbons to show you and that is the point.

And that’s not evolving or coming along slowly or better than it used to be… that’s just how it is. I handle mine every day the way they should be treated-without confinement or soreness or working through pain or behind the bit or sore shouldered and in their face and heads so much that they lose themselves. I don’t care the discipline-there is point where you can be hurting the horse to be doing what you want instead of what is good for both of you.

I think some of you here are sticking up for the discipline or the concept and not at all the horse.

And Bluey totally took a potshot and then tried to kick dirt over it and plant a flower instead. :lol:

#85

Well said Beowulf…in post 80

#86

[QUOTE=beowulf;8175779]
technically, it is an oxymoron but that is another thing… lateral is side to side, flexion is up/down…

lateral work is COMPLETELY different in every imaginable aspect than “lateral flexion”… lateral work focuses on straightness and correctness and balance… whatever this lateral flexion is seems to focus entirely on where the head and neck is.[/QUOTE]

Right, the lateral flexing with the horse parked is a disuniting movement, which as such can teach a horse a possible evasion, not conductive to the horse moving it’s parts as one.

Especially harmful to what we want in a riding horse, to carry us, the more extreme we try to disunite the horse, to then have to again put it together.

#87

Wow, you’re right. All reining horses are lame. Mouth-sore. Burned out. Dead heads.

https://youtu.be/a-7v8Ck1crg

https://youtu.be/aAajFLA_H6o

This one’s really a dead head. Looks like the horse hates his job.
https://youtu.be/P6UXFXGzQYs

Now as a disclaimer since Bluey got attacked for being sarcastic, let me emphasize: All of the above is sarcastic.

I think there is truth to say that some reining trainers are too much in the horse’s face and over-do it with the “flexing”. But it’s getting downright ridiculous to put down the sport of reining in its entirety just because there’s a few trainers you don’t agree with.

And since you admit that you don’t even show yourself, exactly how much have you really “seen” of reining? From your post, it sounds like you are mostly judging reining based on not your own opinion, but the opinion of some local trainers you have talked to who have a vendetta against it.

I’ll put myself up for blast. Why not. Here’s one of our reining patterns from last year. He’s improved greatly on his spins and flying lead changes so far this year; just haven’t competed yet to video it.
https://youtu.be/VuZxePnzs8c

He’s not lame.
He’s not over-flexed.
He’s not mouth sore.
And he’s not a dead head.
His reining training has made him a better horse in all aspects, in his competition events and in every day riding. Our reining trainer has helped us immensely. And on the same token, his horses aren’t lame, or over-flexed, or mouth sore, or dead heads, as you seem to think of ALL reining horses.

I just always find it very interesting when people have such a strong opinion of a topic, yet they’ve never actually done it themselves to have any experience to speak from. Have you even sat on a horse that does a nice spin? Or a flying lead change just from your leg?

You don’t find me jumping on the dressage board and telling the dressage folks how to do their job. Because I haven’t a clue because I’ve never done it.

#88

Sarcasim can be hard to pick up in email or any electronic form…but with all due respect, I really don’t accept ‘gaited horses move absurdly’ as sarcasm. It sounds like a slam on gaited horses and/or anyone who has them. Don’t think that would go over well if I made such as statement condemning H&J, Dressage riders or other popular discipline on the board.

I agree to stand up for the horse, always. I stand up for the TWH and always will. The Walkers I know and show with are sane, sound, and move beautifully. A good walking horses doesn’t pace. I think there is merit to just about every training style, and discipline, and always examples of what not to do within each category.

#89

Sorry if it bothers you that I don’t care for reining based on what I have seen and experienced, but there you have it. The reining trainer I watched was small time. He trained at the arena where my daughter had riding lessons. I watched him work a lot of horses and always the same. The other people at the arena noted how hard he was on the horses too, we discussed it as we watched. The reputable horse trainer that doesn’t care for reining is not small time; he travels the country training horses and teaching horsemanship.

I don’t remember saying that all reiners are burned out. I didn’t say that. The description I used is what I see as the result of bad reining training.

I don’t need to be a reiner to have an opinion. I think meth must be bad for people but I don’t need to try it to have that opinion. :lol:

I’m sure there are good reiners but overall, I’m not a fan of it. The world still spins. So to speak. :wink:

#90

Beau, glad your horse is happy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16M_FpXaEh4

https://youtu.be/Vh0cvIA8pk8

check out 7:50 - bam bam bam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdI_ILs0Pn4

it’s just gross what’s asked of them in the name of ‘performance’.

like the ‘performance’ gaited horse-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr4wdxkFQpA
https://youtu.be/CBA_I65143I

sometimes we take too much from these kind creatures.

#91

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8176735]

CA and the way many many reiners ride is abusive to horses, IMO.

…

I can see and I have judgement and I have watched reining trainers grab grab grabbing at a horse’s face and I’ve talked to very very reputable horsemanship trainers that do not respect reining overall b/c it burns out horses minds and I have a personal preference on how a horse should be treated when they’re doing their jobs.

…

Sorry if it bothers you that I don’t care for reining based on what I have seen and experienced, but there you have it. The reining trainer I watched was small time. [/QUOTE]

You have a very limited experience of reining if you have only personally witnessed ONE incorrect backyard reining trainer, although you like to talk as if you’ve been around a lot of it.

As bolded above: Reining overall burns out a horse’s mind.

That’s a good way to insult a vast branch of horse people.

GoFish asked you “If you think your method is so RIGHT, then show us your great results.” And you responded that you don’t show and don’t rein so therefore your horses aren’t lame, over-flexed, mouth sore, dead head burned out horses… insinuating that horses that show are as such! Once again, that’s a good way to insult a vast branch of horse people.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8176735]
I don’t need to be a reiner to have an opinion. I think meth must be bad for people but I don’t need to try it to have that opinion.

I’m sure there are good reiners but overall, I’m not a fan of it. [/QUOTE]

No, you don’t need to have experience to have an opinion. That’s the beauty of having an opinion.

But it’s very clear you haven’t a clue about reining.

#92

Never said those methods were good. As I said above, there are trainers who over-do it on the “flexing and bending”. I’ll even pick on my horse from time to time, and over-bend him and over-flex him just to mess with him, but I don’t do it every ride and don’t do it for prolonged periods or to the extent those videos show.

You can achieve a nice reining horse without doing that, and there are plenty of reining trainers that go about it the RIGHT way.

I won’t comment on the gaited videos because I know nothing about gaited horses.

#93

[QUOTE=beau159;8176887]
You have a very limited experience of reining if you have only personally witnessed ONE incorrect backyard reining trainer, although you like to talk as if you’ve been around a lot of it.

As bolded above: Reining overall burns out a horse’s mind.

That’s a good way to insult a vast branch of horse people.

GoFish asked you “If you think your method is so RIGHT, then show us your great results.” And you responded that you don’t show and don’t rein so therefore your horses aren’t lame, over-flexed, mouth sore, dead head burned out horses… insinuating that horses that show are as such! Once again, that’s a good way to insult a vast branch of horse people.

No, you don’t need to have experience to have an opinion. That’s the beauty of having an opinion.

But it’s very clear you haven’t a clue about reining.[/QUOTE]

and it’s very clear you are taking what cowboymom DIDN’T say as what she was trying to say… so because cowboymom didn’t structure her sentence in a stark absolute, we can directly subtract from her indefinite statement exactly what she was inferring…

i agree with her, but i’ll say this in absolutes: not a single video you have linked so far (or that has been linked in this thread so far) shows a horse that looks happy to me. :rolleyes:

are you really so blind to your sport that you DON’T see the brainfried, overbent, mouthsore, bodysore, overflexed horses??

#94

[QUOTE=beau159;8176894]
Never said those methods were good. As I said above, there are trainers who over-do it on the “flexing and bending”. I’ll even pick on my horse from time to time, and over-bend him and over-flex him just to mess with him, but I don’t do it every ride and don’t do it for prolonged periods or to the extent those videos show.

You can achieve a nice reining horse without doing that, and there are plenty of reining trainers that go about it the RIGHT way.

I won’t comment on the gaited videos because I know nothing about gaited horses.[/QUOTE]

Those are warm ups at the FEI level, one of whom is a USEF Equestrian of the Year and double WEG gold medalist, Tom McCutcheon, and the dearly beloved millionaire clinician Clinton on his 30-40k Performance horses. He wouldn’t get those prices if buyers didn’t agree with his Method ™ and those ‘local yokels’ wouldn’t be at the FEI, either. What you do at the low-levels isn’t the ‘face’ of reining: do you grasp that?

You don’t have to ‘know’ gaited to know that clown shoes and mustard oil don’t belong in a barn.

Do I have to be lion trainer to know that knocking their teeth out with a hammer is cruel?

Beau,no harm meant … I watched your video- your spins aren’t, your sliding stops aren’t, your backing is stiff, your changes are late or missed- and you’re the reining expert here?

#95

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8175987]
Well, I don’t have any lame, over-flexed, mouth sore, dead head burned out horses.

I don’t show in reining, I don’t compete my horses in any way. Hence, nobody else’s opinion but my own matters for my horses.

I can see and I have judgement and I have watched reining trainers grab grab grabbing at a horse’s face and I’ve talked to very very reputable horsemanship trainers that do not respect reining overall b/c it burns out horses minds and I have a personal preference on how a horse should be treated when they’re doing their jobs. So, sorry, Charlie, I don’t have any trophies or ribbons to show you and that is the point.

And that’s not evolving or coming along slowly or better than it used to be… that’s just how it is. I handle mine every day the way they should be treated-without confinement or soreness or working through pain or behind the bit or sore shouldered and in their face and heads so much that they lose themselves. I don’t care the discipline-there is point where you can be hurting the horse to be doing what you want instead of what is good for both of you.

I think some of you here are sticking up for the discipline or the concept and not at all the horse.

And Bluey totally took a potshot and then tried to kick dirt over it and plant a flower instead. :lol:[/QUOTE]

That was great :encouragement::encouragement:

It would be nice to see CA riding a horse with it’s head in a forward position. Does anyone have one??

#96

I didn’t put a good sentence out there, that is true-good catch. My intent would have been to say that I think the vast majority of high level reining horses end up burned out. Which is still pretty close to absolute and sorry, I still think that. But I will say that I’m sure they are happy ones out there but they aren’t winning a lot of money.

You sure are in a rush to assume about me. The guy I used to watch training isn’t exactly in someone’s back yard. He and his clients have placed and won at places like the International Reining Festival in Denver and other futurities and championships around the west. He’s been in magazine articles and press.

Of course I haven’t been around a lot of it, clearly, I already said where I formed my judgement. From afar. I don’t need to be around it a lot to make a judgement. I can see with my eyeballs what I don’t like and I know how horses operate, that is all.

#97

Two anecdotes.

  1. Some of you may recall that last summer the stars aligned such that I wound up buying a 6 yo reining Quarab from a total stranger, sight unseen, entirely via text message. I reiterate that I didn’t, and still don’t, know jack about reining. I later learned that the seller was apparently a well-known reining trainer with a huge barn who wins everything all the time. She competed my mare nationally. Despite this checkered past, mare is sound, well-adjusted, well-trained, happy, and adorable. She follows me around like a golden retriever. Because of her advanced training she is an absolute pleasure to ride, so I biff around the farm on her nearly every day. As a bonus, she has a magnificent “mane and tale.” Best money I ever spent (with the possible exception of the Bugzooka).

  2. To those who aver that horses don’t naturally move forward with their heads to the side, I offer this: I took my semi-retired fancy hunter out on the trail yesterday, and she spent nearly the whole ride trying to go with her neck “flexioned” sideways, in an attempt to nab bites of passing tall grass. I had to chuckle, thinking of this thread. Aforementioned reining mare wouldn’t dream of doing this.

In fact, I tried that nose-to-the-stirrup move on my reining mare after reading this thread. She didn’t appear to know what the heck I was talking about. So my guess is that not every reining trainer finds value in installing that particular “skill”.

#98

[QUOTE=beowulf;8176931]

i agree with her, but i’ll say this in absolutes: not a single video you have linked so far (or that has been linked in this thread so far) shows a horse that looks happy to me.[/QUOTE]

Well, I’m very glad to hear that you think my horse is unhappy.

Or that Stacy’s Westfall’s horse is unhappy.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8176931]
are you really so blind to your sport that you DON’T see the brainfried, overbent, mouthsore, bodysore, overflexed horses?? [/QUOTE]

Apparently I’m not clear? Of course there are plenty of horses that have been “over-done” by trainers that are choosing to use wrong methods to achieve the results.

The same way that some trainers in other disciplines, whether it be dressage, western pleasure, gaited, etc, that choose to use the “wrong road” to achieve their results.

What I am saying is that reining is not bad. Don’t dis the sport of reining. Because while there are people that go the wrong way about it, there are plenty of trainers that do train for reining the correct way. I believe Chris Cox and Stacy Westfall were two that were already mentioned previously?

I just don’t understand the HATRED that is being directed toward the sport of reining.

I get that most of COTH doesn’t like barrel racing and western pleasure but I see that reining is now being added to that list.

I’ve worked with 3 different reining trainers in my area and none of them use those wrong methods. They focus on making a reining horse by using the correct training methods and not over-bending over-flexing or being harsh with them, as was the original discussion of this thread (training methods). Somehow the entire sport of reining is getting thrown under the bus.

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8176984]
Beau,no harm meant … I watched your video- your spins aren’t, your sliding stops aren’t, your backing is stiff, your changes are late or missed- and you’re the reining expert here? [/QUOTE]

Who said I was a reining expert? I posted my own video to show that not all reining horses are lame, over-flexed, mouth sore, dead head burned out horses. Although, I guess Beowulf still thinks my horse is unhappy anyway.

My horse is a work in progress. That is where he was at that time about 1 year ago.

I’d love to see a video of your reining horse.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8176931]
Of course I haven’t been around a lot of it, clearly, I already said where I formed my judgement. From afar. I don’t need to be around it a lot to make a judgement. I can see with my eyeballs what I don’t like and I know how horses operate, that is all.[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you broaden your horizons and find a GOOD reining trainer? If you’ve only experienced the bad side of something, of course it isn’t going to be appealing.

#99

Beau…Right now you have a cute playday horse and posit yourself as the resident expert and talk up the great reining training you’ve seen and been a part of but you don’t have anything to show for it. Your example of your own horse as a reiner isn’t one- he’s not even a horsemanship pattern horse. He’s cute, and you two are having a blast- but you were not ready for a reining class. Nor was he ready to be the sample of a good one. And you’re asking me to prove myself as a reiner?
I’m not one. Dressage and trail riding, thanks. A clinic with Rocky Dare some years ago turned me off of reining for good. Do you know who he is?
So no - not a reiner- the thing is, neither are you.

You dismiss and diminish other’s experiences as not up to par, and demand videos - so I gave you FEI warm ups and CA- since we’re on a CA thread. But you don’t like those as examples. But those FEI riders- That “is” reining. Blame the big guns for creating an atmosphere where hock hobbles and slamming horses around at speed is the norm. The rule? No. The norm, yes.

this is a talented horse- who’s been drilled to keep that nose DOWN.
https://youtu.be/WNfyVIOpSAE

the big reason WP gets bashed is the unnaturally low headsets and cramped, defeated gaits. this horse should be DQd from a WP class for ear tips consistently below the withers at the walk.
https://youtu.be/2GtCmmQ2eFk

now I LOVE a pretty run- but ladies and gentlemen- this is rare stuff. I’ll forgive how much and how often these horses dive their chins to their chests and snatch their heads down- it’s a trained reaction…but this is some of the least ugly I’ve seen- Shawn Flarida’s horse is what reining SHOULD look like. But man that’s a rare horse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLlHPLPagMw

#100

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8178274]
Your example of your own horse as a reiner isn’t one- he’s not even a horsemanship pattern horse. [/QUOTE]

Am I supposed to apologize that I didn’t spend 5 or 6 figures to buy a finished reining horse for myself? I’m quite happy with my 2 horses and how they are progressing in their training, thank you very much. From where Red was at when I bought him, through all his health issues, to where he is now; he’s doing great. Not to mention he wears rim shoes for barrel racing so you are absolutely NOT going to see him doing a sliding stop nor I am going to teach him one.

You probably don’t care to know since you’ve already decided he’d make a terrible horsemanship horse, but we actually won horsemanship that day out of about 17 people. There were several people there who actually show on the AQHA circuit in my area. We won the adult all-around as well that day.

Well clearly you know more than I do and can do better than me, so I thought you’d like to showcase that.

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8178274]
Dressage and trail riding, thanks. [/QUOTE]

London Olympics in 2012:
http://cs.thehorse.com/blogs/2012-london-olympics-equestrian-coverage/Parzival%20hyperflexion.jpg

Another example from the Olympics:
http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/userfiles/images/kittel9269_7_London_jr_010812_1041.jpg

Reining shouldn’t be getting the full brunt of the “over-flexing” and “over-bending” accusations because I see dressage doing just as much of the same thing. Maybe not so much side-to-side but certainly just as much vertically.

His horse was behind the vertical and nose to his chest several times before he even entered the ring.
https://youtu.be/PiT8dI7mavE

I don’t see how that is any different than the “discussion” that is being brought on about reining.

Anyway, I think I’ve participated enough in this thread because it seems to be located between a rock and a hard place. Reining is bad and should be outlawed. I guess dressage should be too. Have a good day folks.

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