I’ll confess to not knowing how to ride/fit/train with a bosal under the cover of anonymity here.
But I want to learn and I think I have the skill to do that. Right now, I have a horse or two that will let me experiment from going from “well broke in a snaffle” to “the same or better” in a bosal.
But where to start?
Oh, and can I retain my dislike of the horse hair mecate and use something else?
Don’t get hung up on “vaquero” and “bosal” as the ones and only.
Many others than vaquero tradition have used bosals to train and ride with.
To use a bosal is about training the mind of the horse and you start that by teaching the horse on the ground how to respond to one.
I highly recommend you find someone that knows how to use one properly and have them show you.
Even better if you get a ride on a horse that is already trained with one, so you get the feel for that lightness yourself, before you attempt using one on horses that may not be really educated to one.
Then there is the question of which kind of bosal we are talking about, the big rawhide ones, that tend to go bump-bump-bump on a poor horse’s nose as it moves and the horse has to learn to ignore them, or the finer ones that work really better as training and riding aids?
Important and many forget or don’t even know, bosals can have the cheek pieces mounted too far forward and that, when you pick up the reins and move your hand, may make them hit the horse in the eye.
You can see that especially with the big, fat rawhide covered fancy show type bosals, in the pictures and videos, where the horses have to squint or even keep closing their eyes as those kept hitting them there.
We use hackamores we make out of old grass rope nose and use cotton rope reins we braid out of regular cotton rope, or buy some already made of cotton or mohair.
I too never liked the horsehair reins, although have one such pair.
Here are some pictures so you get the idea of what we used:
A mane hair mecate is much softer than a tail hair mecate. 
I am a bosal virgin, too, but am also interested in moving my horse into it. How do I know when my horse is ready? (I am interested in seeking professional help and wouldn’t just slap on one, but I’d like to expand my knowledge first) I’ve got a queue of DVDs from Giddyupflix coming so I can watch and learn, but I’d also be interested in others’ experiences.
When at a Buck clinic recently I did notice some bosals that looked like they were too close to the eye for my comfort - how do you find the right size?
What do you do in your bosals? Arena work? Do you trail ride in them?
We use bosals to start colts and to ride well trained horses outside where a bit may get in the way, like running thru brush.
Also, in the winter, when it is really cold, no need to add a cold metal to their mouths.
Practically all horses, if they know the difference, will like a bosal better than a bit.
Horses will stick their head happily in there, not as readily grabbing out for any kind of bit.
Pocket Pony, back in the old days, they would tie a rawhide string from one side of the cheekpiece, under the throatlatch, and around to the other cheekpiece to hold it back from the eye. Not sure if they still do that now or what.
[QUOTE=49’er;7008565]
Pocket Pony, back in the old days, they would tie a rawhide string from one side of the cheekpiece, under the throatlatch, and around to the other cheekpiece to hold it back from the eye. Not sure if they still do that now or what.[/QUOTE]
That’s the correct way to do it. If you go with a longer nose button, it dramatically slows the drop-off:
http://calclassics.net/php/learn/fittingABosal.php
No time like the present!
On the ground Do your groundwork if you’re worried.
When riding, one hand is your working hand and the other your post hand. Only activate one rein at a time, and never pull back on both.
Riding bosals, release release release! When you make a request, get a response then drop the rein fully until you can be sure you don’t have a creeping light hold that sneaks in.
If you have to pick up the rein and the horse doesn’t respond right away (as they’ll tend to at first), make sure you take up the slack BEFORE you bump lightly. If you don’t do that, you’ll tend to jerk the rein, which will tend to cause them to toss their head.
Go with light bumps repeated often moreso than than big ones. If you have to bump big, pull your slack first.
Watch these:
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=293643877312686
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=319773494699724
If you find yourself bumping a lot, it’s probably something you should be solving with your legs.
Yep, mohair is much softer. Mane hair has a little more life, and both have much more than any of the synthetics.
Synthetic has a place if you ride in the wet a lot.
All my mecates were done by Douglas Krause.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7008425]
I am a bosal virgin, too, but am also interested in moving my horse into it. How do I know when my horse is ready? [/QUOTE]
Some people start in bosals…your horse can’t really not be ready. If you can’t ride on release, YOU might not be ready however.
Everything
In general: Thanks for that long tutorial post. It’s just what I needed. I was/am scared that I’ll have to buy several very expensive bosals for the different horses and levels of training.
Also, the question about whether I want a bosal that allows me to talk a lot about lateral flexion rather than longitudinal flexion is something I’ll have to think about. In other words, I’ll have to think about how I use a snaffle to get what I ultimately want: A horse stretches through his top line, raises his shoulders and pushes from behind. For babies or retraining projects, I do a lot more “One rein at a time and the horse must give to it” than I do with ones that are farther along.
I see what you mean about starting a horse in a bosal or snaffle-- especially the “creeping hold.”
I think I try not to do that with a snaffle. (This is where I part company with almost every dressage theorist except perhaps the uber-french.) But I probably am guilty of not doing several little take/releases and just holding. Riding in a bosal would make me more “clean” in the way I use my hand and more honest about what I’m doing up there.
@ Perfect Pony, then: You probably could start your horses in a bosal if you were that skilled/honest rider. IMO, however, its easier to see your mistakes and fix them as you go along in a snaffle. There, you know when you are screwing things up by holding too long. Also, you can make just about any horse (no matter how dull) let go and learn to let go with some kind of loose-ring snaffle and the right exercises. I don’t know if you can “make the same clear point” with a bosal should you mess things up and get the horse too dull to the bit.
And the other point-- “If you are bumping a lot with the bosal, you probably have a training problem with your leg”-- applies to any bit, IMO. A great piece of catechism you got there, atkill.
What I meant by the “where to all the reins go” if you use a sidepull vs a bosal as your pre-spade bit equipment:
When I have four reins in my hand, my goal is to get everything done with the bit-reins (and my body)… which involves barely moving that hand. When I ask with a small movement from my hand and don’t get it, the bosal reins are there to reinforce that signal I sent to the bit, right?
So sometimes I’ll hold 3 reins in one hand, and the bosal rein I’m talking to “in a bigger way” in the other hand? If so, I don’t want to have to make a big move with that hand either, right? So that means I need either a horse exceptionally light to the sidepull, or pretty good with a bosal?
I think I need to experiment more to figure out how refined I can get a horse with a side pull vs. what you bosal types are getting.
And maybe I just don’t have enough brain cells to ride with 4 reins the way the vaqueros do-- where the reins are held and used to make a training point. That sounds like it takes a lot of skill— it’s not like riding in a pelham or double bridle.
So do I need to be able to ride my horse with no contact and swinging reins, then, before going to a bosal? I can do it, it is just that “contact” and short reins was drilled into me from dressage that that is now where I tend to want to go. My horse is fine with no contact and if I remember, then I am fine with it, too!
I have ridden him in a bitless bridle, mostly on the trails, and I pretty much don’t use contact there - actually I’ll loop my reins over my saddle horn and wtc by using my legs only as a test of, well, my my legs:lol: and steering ability. Unless the sh!t hits the fan, I don’t need much other than my breath (long exhale) to get my horse to slow down.
@ Pocket Pony.
I mean to answer your question about “do I have to get a loop in the reins with a snaffle before I put on a bosal” question.
But read re-run’s “Dressage Orthodoxy Regarding Contact” on the main vaquero thread. It provides context for what I’ll say by helping you see where I think Western and Dressage want the same thing in the end. (Or you can see where I get that really wrong.)
The short answer to your question is “yes, you should have a loop in your reins with the snaffle” and “I don’t know if this is right.”
You and I come from different places with respect to having too much contact or too little as our default. But I think (or will assume for the sake of the argument) that we want the same thing with respect to the horse’s body and carriage from the shoulders back. He should be Uphill, Pushing from behind and (maybe or ultimately in his training) receiving his direction primarily from your seat/legs/weight rather than your hand.
So the questions become:
You know the story in DressageWorld: The contact being about creating a front block for the energy you create behind, and recycling it.
Therefore, you want a particular relationship with the bit there: The horse should be willing to push into that.
The “typical” or lowest-common-denominator way of starting a western colt in a bit is a little different. There, the horse is taught that he should “carry” the bit as he will a spade later. (I’m not sure I get it or agree.) Also, the bits used on young horses are thinner and less stable than we’d choose in DressageWorld. They want their colts to instantly let go and yield to pressure on the bit. The “right” place for a colt with respect to the bit is his head down and jaw soft. To Dressagers, it looks like the Western folks are making their horses hopelessly behind the bit.
Indeed that’s true: It can be very, very hard to retrain a broke western horse to a DressageWorld contact/relationship with the bit.
Can this same made Western horse with the loop in the reins be plenty uphill and squatting? Sure he can! He’ll also get to that common and ultimate goal-- horse goes off your body and hands do almost nothing-- at the same speed. It depends on the skill with which the rider uses his leg/seat/and all in combination with either planned kind of contact to get the horse to use his body.
The abuses from lack of skill look different in each case: The bad dressage rider waterskis and kicks. The bad western rider snatches at her horse’s mouth and kicks. You can see that each was prefaced on a basic, and different philosophy of contact. And both mean that the rider didn’t train the horse well with respect to the leg and diminishing the amount of information conveyed by his hand.
So to answer your question at last:
The trainer has to make a philosophical decision: Will he create the shoulders-to-butt balance by a relationship with the bit that’s involving contact and the rider who uses his hands/arms/shoulders in one way to vary that? Or does he want to teach the horse to stay “behind” the snaffle and listening for a rider who uses his hands/arms and maybe shoulders a different way?
It seems to me that if you are going to go in the bosal-spade direction, you need to know that both of those are signal types of face gear. You might as well start by using the snaffle that way, too. That might be more for developing the exquisite feel and timing that the rider needs in order to use a signal device rather than something the horse needs. As you say, it’s hard to “turn on” that sensitivity-- or rather, to find it in your fingers, muscles of your forearms, shoulders and lats-- if you previously rode with a different kind of awareness and use for those same body parts.
I suppose that you could teach the smart and willing horse that a snaffle means “dressage contact” and a bosal means “signal contact” while he has to go uphill and squat in each case.
JMHO. Truly, I’m just making this up as a I go along and letting the horses tell me if it works. I’m glad to be able to have this conversation because I can’t often find people IRL that know enough about both disciplines to help me.
[QUOTE=mvp;7009055]
In general: Thanks for that long tutorial post. It’s just what I needed. I was/am scared that I’ll have to buy several very expensive bosals for the different horses and levels of training.[/QUOTE]
I know the fear, but that’s the progression I’m describing.
You can probably get away with just a 5/8" if you never want to go to the two rein, but you’ll also need a 3/8" if you do want to do so. Ideally you’d even throw a 1/2" in there, but I didn’t choose to do so. Trying to make a hackamore horse in a 3/8 probably isn’t going to work too well unless you have an extremely light horse.
They DO need to fit each horse, however. A very large number of the hackamores I see in photos and on fellow riders horses at clinics aren’t fit right, though I admit that’s a subject for personal preference.
My default is to go with a slightly swelled nose and no nerve buttons.
Remember that a bosal needs two hands to be ridden properly…a post hand and an active hand.
I thought I was pretty good until I asked Josh to pick out every time I was unconsciously fiddling on a very long rein. It was sobering!
Sure will. They’ll get noticably dull and heavy (though not irretrievably so) if you don’t release all the time.
Still, there’s the same degree of clarity with both when experienced folks are using them. You’re no more likely to “wreck” a horse, as such, but a hackamore is a bit more of a horseman’s tool in that you can’t make a horse do anything with it. You can scar a horse’s nose if you’re ham-fisted, but since there’s no ability to tear up a horse’s mouth it’s not quite the same level of brutality when used with no finesse (I trust this won’t be an issue for you!).
That’s why some people call it a “bluff”, though given I’ve seen horses run through even very cruel bits, essentially you could call anything a bluff.
I wish I remembered it more lol I’m getting much better, but I have to admit when things get fast or hairy especially my first response is to try to fix things with my hands.
Remember that a bosal needs two hands to be ridden properly…a post hand and an active hand.
Post hand and active hand? What is this nomenclature?
I’m going to put this comment here, rather than in the Vaquero thread because I think it might be more directly an answer to someone trying to figure out how to get a horse carrying himself ‘through’ as is done PROPERLY in dressage (which, to my mind, is pretty uncommon.)
You do NOT need hands pulling back on reins to contain the life, the energy, to have a horse truly collected and very light in front and using the heck out of his hindquarters, back up.
You need the horse’s mind reaching back to you, waiting for you, YOUR intention is the horse’s intention- that is what contains the life in collection.
You can accomplish this with NO direct contact, though you must by definition have a feel- you are feeling to the horse through the reins, and the horse is feeling back toward you.
So, therefore, you can accomplish that in a bosal. You can accomplish that in a snaffle, too, with no direct contact. In fact, until you CAN accomplish this, you aren’t ready for a curb bit.
It is dismaying to me to see, in Dressage World, the curb reins (and thus the bit) engaged ALL the time, with big thigh blocks on the saddle for the rider to have an anchor to pull back on, ALL the time. 
In fact, I would consider it MORE difficult to achieve collection on a contact, because you have to have a feel on the tongue without ever using the bit to dent/compress the tongue; that is going to take some exceptionally fine riding.
In one of the 7 Clinics DVDs, Buck talks about some folks who like to ride on a strong contact, thinking that going from 20 pounds of pressure to 5 pounds of pressure is a release. Buck is quite clear that to him, that is very much NOT a release, that he’s not sure what you’d call it, it’s a reduction of pressure but not a release. That reduction/change in pressure, rather than true release, will be unclear to a horse and get in the way of communication.
If you’re riding on a feel, in true collection, your horse has to be on a release as much as possible (in neutral, if you will) with no actual pressure on the reins. So accomplishing this release with a direct, following contact with the mouth (as opposed to ‘almost’ no pressure, which is ‘almost’ a release…which is not really a release and won’t create a true feel) is going to be pretty close to un-acheivable to a whole lot of riders.
^^^
Can we get an AMEN to that?
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7010168]
In one of the 7 Clinics DVDs, Buck talks about some folks who like to ride on a strong contact, thinking that going from 20 pounds of pressure to 5 pounds of pressure is a release. Buck is quite clear that to him, that is very much NOT a release, that he’s not sure what you’d call it, it’s a reduction of pressure but not a release. That reduction/change in pressure, rather than true release, will be unclear to a horse and get in the way of communication.[/QUOTE]
I’m not ready to worship at Mr. Brannaman’s alter exclusively, but I agree with this point. And what a sh!tty deal for the horse! He’s supposed to be happy with a reduction in pressure, not a complete (if momentary) release? Who would sign up for working in those conditions.
Also, the rather Germanic, many-pounds-of-pressure-in-the-hand that I was taught as a kid sucks, purely for hedonistic reasons on the rider’s part. Who wants to work that hard— holding all that and then kicking or pushing enough to get the horse to be willing to put his mouth into all that pressure?
As a riding goal and a part of a full training philosophy, it makes no sense to me. I think that’s why I am so fascinated by Western World’s interest in signal equipment for the face.
[QUOTE=mvp;7010186]
Also, the rather Germanic, many-pounds-of-pressure-in-the-hand that I was taught as a kid sucks, purely for hedonistic reasons on the rider’s part. Who wants to work that hard— holding all that and then kicking or pushing enough to get the horse to be willing to put his mouth into all that pressure?[/QUOTE]
It IS hard work. It is the hardest work I have ever done in a saddle and can be exhausting! Whew!
I haven’t had a dressage lesson in a year - I wasn’t looking forward to them, although I did learn a lot in the process and was always happy I went after the fact. Depending on the teacher, there can be a lot of good theory there, but unfortunately I found lessons pretty boring going around and around and around and around and . . . The goal was suppleness and throughness but we never did any exercises other than the 20-m circle. When I’d work at home I’d do transitions, ground poles, lateral work, etc. It wasn’t until I took my horse to someone to teach him and me ground work that I actually, really got a supple horse who would move and bend and stretch and flex - and it was easy because he had been prepared on the ground, it wasn’t a hard struggle for an hour like in a lesson.
[QUOTE=mvp;7009125]
What I meant by the “where to all the reins go” if you use a sidepull vs a bosal as your pre-spade bit equipment:[/QUOTE]
Okay, gotcha. That’s possible, and I’ve done it with a sidepull when my first bosalita ended up being too large to fit under my spade, but it’s just not quite a two-rein in the traditional sense (not the end of the world).
I’ve even seen people two rein a horse in a snaffle and hackamore, though that’s not something that really interests me particularly (I respect the intention, however).
Yes and no. Other than at the very beginning, the point of a two rein is that you ask the same way as you would in the bridle, but you vary how much pressure is being added to each component.
On a good pair of two-rein-type bridle reins there should be what’s called a “two rein button”. That’s a braided button that you can slide up and down the rein. If you remember to hold the rein at the button and at a consistent spot on the mecate, you can use it to vary how much pressure is going to the bit vs how much is going to the bosal. If you slide the button all the way to the romal connector, you’ll be mainly riding off the bosal. If you slide the button down, you’ll proportionally be using more and more bridle rein.
This isn’t the END of the world at first, but if you need to do this you’re not really ready to do too much in the two rein yet. You should really be able to ride in the hackamore single-handed for the most part before going to the two rein.
The reason being, you always need a post hand (still hand) to balance the bosal, and an active working hand. If you use a 3+1 hold, you’re implying you’re not ready to be using the bridle reins yet. As such, the hand with the 3 will be the post hand. That means you’ll sometimes have your bridle reins in your left hand, and sometimes in your right. Swapping your bridle reins from one hand to the other isn’t really a good habit to get into.
The show world (reining and WP particular) have drilled it into people’s heads that somehow a bridle rein should be completely and totally still. It’s pretty rediculous how OVER emphasized that is, with the big, loopy, essentially pointless rein.
There’s nothing wrong with having a live, active rein, so moving the bridle reins isn’t a bad thing. Eventually you want to work in a tiny box over the horn, but you don’t need to use finished horse aids to try to ride a greener horse (bad habit that lots of disciplines have).
When the horse goes to the two-rein, though, you shouldn’t really be two-handing the horse very much. There’s nothing wrong with laying the bridle reins over the horn and riding two-handed off the bosal reins, but when you pick up the bridle reins, you shouldn’t really be two-handing them too much IME.
Now, that said, some people don’t have an issue with two hands on the bridle reins (Buck teaches that). From what I know that does to the bridle bit in the horse’s mouth, however, I ascribe to the philosophy of one hand on the bridle reins only.
A bosal has a longitudinal component, remember, so it’s closer to what a bridle bit (a longitudinal only tool) is asking.
If you can ride one-handed in a snaffle with two reins in theory you can ride one-handed with four.
What you don’t get to do here is ride with two-hands on the bridle reins. A pelham or double bridle is ALWAYS ridden two-handed (except for the few who might 3+1 with both curb reins in one hand), so that might be where your confusion is coming in.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7009898]
So do I need to be able to ride my horse with no contact and swinging reins, then, before going to a bosal? [/QUOTE]
Yes and no. Your horse doesn’t need to be 100% rideable on a loose rein before you start in a bosal. HOWEVER, you do need to be willing to learn how to ride in release in order to make a hackamore horse.
Caveat: some people ride hackamores like a glorified snaffle, never letting the heel knot drop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLslhXR1uwY
I think that’s not only missing the entire point of a hackamore, it’s dangerous. If you want to set up a horse to run through the hackamore, do this. You can ride a made dressage horse in a hackamore like this, but you can’t make a hackamore horse from scratch like this.
When you pick up the rein to get the horse to respond in signal gear, you need to be willing to release completely to signal that he’s done the right thing. It’s Buck’s example of 20 lbs going to 5 lbs isn’t a release…20 lbs going to 0 is a release. Horses learn through release of pressure, not through pressure itself.
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