Morgan Peeps - Tell Me About Bloodlines + "Personality"

[Just_Not_Native]

Ok, when I was a kid my father knew Ester K. Bird who was a noted breeder of Morgans in Central Massachusetts. I remember going to her home and also seeing her at local shows… Through reading I know that Big Bend Doc Davis was a result of her breeding program.

Lets skip a head, oh, 40 years. With the price of warmbloods a little beyond my reach, are Morgans a good match for the older, intermediate rider, with low level dressage aspirations (the horse would have to be 16 hands)?

Also: I have read a bit about the different families of Morgans - Lippit, Brunk, Goverment, Western Working etc. What do they EACH bring to the table as far as personality & height?

Of course I have heard that they are “Hot” but literature from AMHA tells those interested in the breed that they are sensible etc. What is the real “scoop”.

[JustMyStyle]

I’ll try my best to answer what I know…

I learned how to ride on a Morgan and competed for several years on the circuit, ending in 2006. I have owned Morgans for over 10yrs. The only flightly/“non-sensible” Morgans I have met have been bred as show horses. I will add to this around a month ago the AMHA released an article requesting judges to return to the original standard and stop pinning wavy-leg, shaky-tail horses. As you can tell I’m not really a fan of the current winning show Morgans.

Anyways…back to your questions. I’ve seen several excellent lower level dressage Morgans.

I find Morgans are more “hot” in that they can be sensitive. Generally they will not take to drilling on the same movement over and over and over again. They will begin to anticipate and get “hot”. I’ve also ridden many a dull sided lesson Morgan, but they still halted when the trainer said walk and we were cantering!

Lippitt Morgans tend to be very classically bred but with a heavy shoulder and neck. They are generally the pony sized up to 14.2. They have created their own club and tend to think they are the “true” Morgans.

The Government bred line is a tricky bit. My experience with them has been through the University of Vermont Morgans (not actually related to the University sadly). They are in the 14.2-15.2h range usually and in my experience tend to be a bit lighter build than the lippett, or brunk/western working. Great minds but more geared towards driving and saddle horses. However, many sport horse geared Morgan’s have UVM Government lines, such as Taproot Command Pilot. If I remember correctly FEI rider/trainer Madeleine Austin worked with him and thought him a lovely horse.

The brunk/working western Morgans are actually way back in the heritage of QH’s. I feel they definitely share some traits. They tend to be packaged similarly except for the long back. Strong hind-quarters with a good shoulder and balanced neck. Also in the 15h range.

Two cautions: Specifically bred “sport horse Morgans” and colored Morgans. First, I have maybe seen a picture of one maybe two colored Morgans that looked correct. They fall to the general demise of colored horse where the breeder breeds for color and only color. I have seem more club footed, bad shouldered, longed backed, parrot mouthed colored Morgans than I care to count.

The sport horse bred Morgans can occasionally really stray from the Morgan standard. Many have no type to them.

As to personality, they are amazing. They are very, very intelligent, kind, and extremely sensible. I often think the reason I don’t get along well with TB’s is because I grew up with Morgans. I have no patience for a horse that is a “stupid spooker” as I like to call it. Generally a Morgan will assess the situation and then make a decision. They are not a breed to jump and run before asking questions. Of course there are always exceptions and the nature versus nurture; but that has been my personal experience.

They are not necessarily and easy horse. They have an opinion. And when they learn something, they can like to show off…What do you mean don’t passage now? Look how good I am at it!

The hard thing with the height is many of the over 16h Morgans loose their type. Which is why I don’t think you see a lot of them. However, for starters I would recommend looking at Meadowair Farm in Walpole, NH owned by Andrea Chickering. She has always bred correct nice horse on the big side. They tend to have EXCELLENT minds and be easy going.

On another front Scot Tolman in Spofford, NH breeds the occasional Morgan Dutch cross. With his Dutch horses aimed at Dressage this could be a good venue for you to explore. I myself am waiting on my Morgan mare’s first foal by a Dutch Stallion

I have a feeling I will always own a Morgan. Though the years I’ve had various h/j and dressage trainers try to take me in other directions and I always end up with a Morgan I’ve had my mare for 8 years and love her (most of the time!). She is a bit of a princess but I let her be that way. I’ve never connected to another horse like her. I can point at her to move a leg, yet she still occasionally takes off with me to jumps! Trainers tend to hate her as she is very hot and sensitive but any barn worker she’s met she’s brought to her side! The last barn she was at she convinced the manager to let her have free access to the indoor and her stall or her stall and a private grass pasture so she could decide if she wanted to be outside. The manager had her own horses there and yet my mare got all the special treatment

But take my words with a grain of salt as you can tell how biased I am!

[vtdobes]

@JustMyStyle;6284538

owever, many sport horse geared Morgan’s have UVM Government lines, such as Taproot Command Pilot. If I remember correctly FEI rider/trainer Madeleine Austin worked with him and thought him a lovely horse.

Actually it was Denny Emerson who evented Pilot. Pilot’s brother (same sire & their dams were full sisters), Taproot Flag Ship, was shown dressage by Ellen Miller (as well as Jackie Qua daughter of Charlie Ross who was Flag Ship’s breeder/owner). I don’t recall Madeleine riding either of those stallions but she could have very early on.

I had a 16 hand Taproot bred horse who I put down this past December at the age of 30. Unfortunately Taproot is no longer as Charlie died several years ago. They bred some nice sport horses.

If I were interested in looking for a dressage Morgan I might contact Bill Broe in NY. His stallion is big, typy and has a nice temperment.
http://ahorsedrawnaffair.com/breeding.htm

And also Lucy Tidd who has GKB Coal Magic. I LOVE this horse!
http://www.gkbcoalmagic.com/

[JustMyStyle]

ah, for some reason I was thinking Madeleine had him in training for a bit to help his dressage, but I easily could have made that up!

I love GKB Coal Magic! Great type and wonderfully athletic!

Oh, not sure where you are but Chris Cassenti at Chrislar Farm in Rowley, Mass always has some lovely horses. She doesn’t breed and runs a show barn, but refuses to give in and get “Saddlebred” Morgans. She always has a barn full of great horses and believes in the well-rounded Morgan. If nothing else she’d be able to help you find something. She also has a knack for finding under 10k horses that are spectacular! She rescued a registered gelding headed for slaughter and had him placing at Oklahoma the next year!

[Kwill]

I second the opinionated on the Morgans. I think they are for some riders, but not for others. In the olden days (early 80s) two Morgans I rode, including my own, had real issues with the canter. I tried for years to get an ex show mare to be a dressage horse, but a balanced canter was truly difficult for her, and she would get frustrated. However, she was sweet as pie otherwise. I also rode and trained a Breezy Cobra gelding, and he was hot and very difficult to handle. Also hated to canter. And had lots of violent temper tantrums – as I just read on a blog, “he liked to throw his toys out of the pram.”

Neither one of my horses was over 15hh – again, that Breezy Cobra breeding was not for height. Both were also bred to be park/english pleasure horses. That gelding could hit his chin with his knees, barefoot.

Fast forward years later, a woman at my barn had a sporthorse eventing morgan, that mare was difficult but very talented. Very much the sport type though, she was around 16hh.

I my experience Morgans can get upset, and act out, so if you don’t mind being firm but fair, you should enjoy one. They will have a tantrum if pushed, though. Of course your mileage will vary!

[quietann]

I pretty much agree with everyone else. They’re wicked smart, insist on fair treatment, and are a whole lot of horse in a small package. But the breed is highly variable in type, preferred gaits, etc. To some degree, “show” Morgans and “sport” Morgans almost look like different breeds.

Two recommendations: Morgan Dressage Association, which has a lot of folks who do things besides dressage. They also run the morgandressage Yahoo Group/mailing list. Sport Morgan Breeders Ltd, a lot of the same people but more breeding oriented. There are, however, plenty of good sport Morgan folks who belong to neither.

Is there a particular reason you want 16 hands or more? I agree with others that you can lose the Morgan type as they get taller, plus if you are long-legged Morgans tend to be rather round and take up a lot of leg.

One thing to be careful about: get a good look at the legs and feet. The sport lines tend to be better, but it’s easy to find Morgans with club feet, very straight hind legs, low backs, etc. Mine is less than ideal in this respect and I have paid the price.

I once heard that if you can find out whether a Morgan preferred to canter or trot as a foal, and the answer is canter, they’re more likely to have a good canter as an adult. Mine was a “canter Morgan” as a baby and before some soundness issues caught up with her, her canter was just unbelievable… A little bouncy, but with a huge stride, uphill, and a lot of push from behind. And she loved jumping!

My own opinion on bloodlines: look for Brunk, Working Western, old Government, etc. My mare’s dam is a Coal Creek horse and you’ll find them in a lot of sport Morgan pedigrees. They tend to be heavily Brunk-bred. Her sire’s side is interesting… includes Old Government lines on the top (including Broadwall Drum Major and Parade, who toured in the US with Alois Podhajsky and the Lipizanners), plus a little bit of Brunk… but her sire’s dam was a park harness champion from Kingston and Captor lines, which can be very hot. My mare is not super-typey and is rather fine in build, but when she’s animated all the Morgan comes out.

[Just_Not_Native]

Thank you all so much for your input concerning the Morgan horse. The reason I was interested in the probability of a 16 hand Morgan is because I am a larger rider, 5’ 8" - 200 lbs.
Would this size rider be a problem for a Morgan that is in the 15 hand range?

[quietann]

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;6288782]
Thank you all so much for your input concerning the Morgan horse. The reason I was interested in the probability of a 16 hand Morgan is because I am a larger rider, 5’ 8" - 200 lbs.
Would this size rider be a problem for a Morgan that is in the 15 hand range?[/QUOTE]

Some of them are quite stout and have a lot of bone. You may want to go up to 15.2 or 16 hands but be sure you look at the overall bone structure and leg conformation. As I said, mine is quite finely built at almost 15 hands and maybe 875 pounds, so she wouldn’t be what you’d be looking for.

[Bayou_Roux]

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;6288782]
Thank you all so much for your input concerning the Morgan horse. The reason I was interested in the probability of a 16 hand Morgan is because I am a larger rider, 5’ 8" - 200 lbs.
Would this size rider be a problem for a Morgan that is in the 15 hand range?[/QUOTE]

Depending on build, not a problem at all. Deeeeep bodied, though short-legged, these “wee warmbloods” take up a lot of leg.

Agree with pretty much what everyone here has said. I’ll add that my experience has taught me that Morgans are never, ever a “once a week” horse. They’re ready to work every day, or at the very least every other. If you have a week where life gets in the way and you don’t make it out to train, then you’re going to have to earn back their respect. They do not suffer fools, and you need to show up every day with your “A” game to keep them believing that you are not a fool. For many adults, this required regularity is not a possibility-- work, family, weather, illness-- all sorts of things get in the way, and sometimes we have to admit a horse who requires this much regular work is not a good match.

That said, they do not suffer drilling, either. Work every day, but you’d better keep it interesting, or they’re going to get bored and inventive. Sometimes their mind is two steps ahead of their physical development, and they can get frustrated when they know what you want, but don’t quite have the balance/strength to do it yet.

They’re not easy by any means, but they’re incredibly satisfying-- once you’ve got their trust, they’ll walk through fire for you… sometimes whether you were planning on it or not…

[vtdobes]

@Bayou Roux;6288857

I’ll add that my experience has taught me that Morgans are never, ever a “once a week” horse. They’re ready to work every day, or at the very least every other. If you have a week where life gets in the way and you don’t make it out to train, then you’re going to have to earn back their respect. They do not suffer fools, and you need to show up every day with your “A” game to keep them believing that you are not a fool. For many adults, this required regularity is not a possibility-- work, family, weather, illness-- all sorts of things get in the way, and sometimes we have to admit a horse who requires this much regular work is not a good match.

I actually don’t find this with mine (they are full siblings and think the same). I can give my mare a week/two weeks off and we come back pretty much where we left off. This winter was the first time she’s had any kind of time off in 4 years (she had a full 4 months off) and aside from being out of shape she was basically at the same point training wise that she was in the fall (she’s 8 this year by the way).

[Bayou_Roux]

[QUOTE=vtdobes;6289409]
I actually don’t find this with mine (they are full siblings and think the same). I can give my mare a week/two weeks off and we come back pretty much where we left off. This winter was the first time she’s had any kind of time off in 4 years (she had a full 4 months off) and aside from being out of shape she was basically at the same point training wise that she was in the fall (she’s 8 this year by the way).[/QUOTE]

Maybe it’s just ours!

I should clarify that they’re not nasty or doofusly disrespectful, but rather more, “hey, I have a better idea, and since I’m smarter than you, how about we do it my way, right?” It’s not that they don’t wish to work; they do. They’ll just start out doing it their way.

The first day back is always about reminding them that we’re working together, and they’re not the boss. They can be the foreman if they want, but not the boss. If too many days goes by, then we’re back to the first day back again.

[aab]

Dee Loveless is both a USDF judge and competitor based in Massachusetts. She has had success with Morgans.

http://deeloveless.com/index.htm

[Kwill]

My morgan mare was ok with time off, but she just struggled with the dressage a lot – she aimed to please and as bayou said, would get frustrated with the canter work and get upset.

The gelding, on the other hand, was exactly as described, and needed to be reminded who was boss firmly but fairly quite often. He was not a leave in the field kind of guy.

[Kwill]

[QUOTE=aab;6289650]
Dee Loveless is both a USDF judge and competitor based in Massachusetts. She has had success with Morgans.

http://deeloveless.com/index.htm[/QUOTE]

Only one morgan on her site, the rest are warmbloods…

[aab]

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you will see she spent quite a few years with this other Morgan.
http://deeloveless.com/resume.htm

Also, if you look at her calendar page, she is still actively showing 2 Morgans at the Morgan shows.

I thought maybe she could offer some insight into certain bloodlines/horses that might be a nice fit for the OP. She just came to mind as a local that is known for her involvement with Morgans.

[quietann]

Yes, Dee is known for working with Morgans and having a good eye for sport prospect Morgans. Dressage-prospect WBs are just more common and get a better price, is all.

Also in MA, Cyndi Rose Wylie of Quarterline Dressage/Rosebrook Farm has worked with Morgans and has taken a TB/Morgan cross to GP.

[morgansnmind]

Another Morgan fan here! Bloodlines I’m still learning but I’m a fan of the late Courage of Equinox and many of his offspring. My mare is a granddaughter of his.

My experiance is that they are not for everyone. They have their own opinions, some are sensitive and usually don’t wear out lunging. I don’t even bother lol. They are very smart. Some are easy keepers but some aren’t. Some people may think my horse is difficult to ride because she likes to go but she isn’t. She’s very safe. If she’s spooks it’s in place but I wouldn’t put a beginner beginner on her (just because she wants to go somewhere).

You do have to look at what’s in front of you and not just bloodlines. There are a lot of smaller Morgans but there are some that are bigger 15.2 . More important is how round they are than how tall. An instructor that I know of had a beautiful typy 16hand round and stocky mare that was out of two stocky 14.2 dam/sire. UVM Flash breeding. She’s going to make a VERY NICE sport horse. Very laid back sweet sweet mare.

I disagree about colored though. There are some really nice colored morgans out there from various bloodlines. Yes there are some badly put together ones but there are some really nices ones (like any color).

http://memcmorgans.com/

http://www.morgancolors.com/

[vtdobes]

[QUOTE=Bayou Roux;6289568]

I should clarify that they’re not nasty or doofusly disrespectful, but rather more, “hey, I have a better idea, and since I’m smarter than you, how about we do it my way, right?” It’s not that they don’t wish to work; they do. They’ll just start out doing it their way.

The first day back is always about reminding them that we’re working together, and they’re not the boss. They can be the foreman if they want, but not the boss. If too many days goes by, then we’re back to the first day back again.[/QUOTE]

Yes this! My carriage driving instructor divides it into “management” (Me) and “labor” (my horse)
Morgans always think they are smarter than you and know what should be done next.

[JustMyStyle]

Dee Loveless is wonderful! I’m sure she’d be happy to point you in the right direction if she knew of any horses.

Tigger was great but I knew a half-brother and half-sister, neither nearly as nice or as big. The mare had a terrible canter and no neck. The half-brother was barely 14.2. I think she lucked out a bit. The breeder tends to go on the heavy neck side and can be difficult to deal with. I know they went to a different breeder when they got Moe who has turned into more of a carriage horse for her husband I believe…

There is also Morgan Horse Showcase but you really have to sort through what is actually a dressage prospect and not just a failed hunter

[Sionna]

I’m a morgan fan as well.

I currently have a Morgan/Friesian cross who is 15.2/3.

Friesian trot and really nice morgan canter. I’m 5’9 and 190lbs (with long legs) and I look ok on him. (Bought him for the morgan - feather’s shaved!)

I think there are some good options out there both morgan and morgan cross.