Mounting issues -- diagnostics to identify/rule out pain?

[Mareish]

Hi all,

I’m hoping you can help me brainstorm a recent mounting issue I’ve been having with my horse. I’ve owned her for three years, and this is a new problem that developed after a long layup from an injury to a front leg that is now largely resolved. I am also working with my vets and chiropractor, of course, but I’m hoping for ideas and questions to ask in the meantime.

In short, my horse will now bolt from the mounting block as soon as one foot is in the stirrup, before you can swing a leg over. She did this twice in August (consecutive days), and I fractured a few vertebrae the second time. That was on days 3 and 4 of tack walking, after the vets cleared her for work – I mounted with no incident on days 1 and 2. She palpated very slightly sore in her back after that per the vet, so we had the chiro treat her and decided to prioritize increasing her turnout for a few months while I healed. Because of restricted turnout, we suspected it could have been pent up energy and did not necessarily assume it was pain at that point.

Fast forward to today, my back is healed and I was once again on day 3 of getting on her. Again, no incident on days 1 and 2. Note, she has had 1cc of Ace (IV) and my trainer holding her each time. Today, she bolted again, nearly running my trainer over. Fortunately, I was uninjured having now invested in a safety vest. I was able to try again, and she stood perfectly still without a twitch of an ear that time, and then was well behaved for tack walking. The only difference between the time she bolted and the times she didn’t is that she had more open space in front of her the way the mounting block was positioned, and I used a slightly thinner saddle pad that is more prone to bridging (but she didn’t object the second try without adjusting any equipment in the meantime).

To be clear, this is a really sweet and people-oriented horse. She had a career in the hunters prior to her leg injury. She only had a single incident of bolting from the mounting block while I’ve owned her, prior to these recent ones, and that time was a friend riding in their own saddle, so I always suspected bad saddle fit in that case. It is especially unlike her with someone holding her, so I have to think pain now… even though she is either perfectly behaved or bolting and nothing in between.

So, what comes to mind? What diagnostics would you do? What would you ask the vets and/or chiro?

A few notes: She is seen at least weekly by my regular vet thanks to the leg injury. She is seen monthly by the orthopedic surgeon who worked on her, who is also a chiropractor. She gets regular chiro on top of that. My saddle is no longer perfect on her after she’s had nearly a year off, but it had been fitted to her and the chiro does not think it would be causing pain. We have a 6 month old bone scan that did not reveal anything major in her back and neck, but we will be looking back to that again…

Any thoughts/ideas/questions are appreciated.

[RhythmNCruise]

The fact that she palpated slightly sore after the first few days under saddle, and that you say the saddle doesn’t fit her exactly right now due to her being off for a year, and the anecdote about her doing this when a friend tried to mount her using a different saddle that may not have fit her would all add up (IMO) to this possibly being a horse that is very sensitive to saddle fit.

Can you try out some other saddles and/or saddle and pad configurations that might suit her better to see if that helps? I’d start there first. My horse went through some horrible back issues over the summer, and in the end I had to do three things to help him: get a new farrier (actually barefoot trimmer) who righted some longstanding wrongs with his feet that were doing him no favors, put him on a magnesium supplement, and the one that hurt the most: relent and admit that the new saddle I’d bought and had “fitted” for him (or as close as the saddle fitter could get it) just wasn’t working out…so I had to buy him a new one (a Wintec of all things, which he adores…as do I, actually).

I think the biggest issue was the saddle, followed by the feet, and the magnesium is just extra support to keep his muscles as relaxed as possible as he tends to have a naturally tense back anyway, and the mag really helps. I’ve also learned all sorts of horsey stretches and massage to help him engage his core and round his back and tuck his pelvis, plus doing lots of backing and trying to incorporate pole work when I can. And he gets chiro and acupuncture about twice a year.
And he got a fancy Mattes dressage saddle pad so everything is cushy and comfy under the saddle. And I just started him on Absorbine Flex+Max last month. And he’s getting started on a supplement with vit e, selenium, and tons of amino acids (plus lots of other goodies) as soon as it arrives. And we do lots of long and low and round stuff under saddle. And…who knows what else I’ll be doing for his back by next week…LOL. I’ve become obsessed.

But yeah…saddle fit would be my first inclination based on what you’ve said. Good luck! It can be a journey trying to pinpoint the problem for sure.

[splitrockfarmnc]

Sorry you’re going through this OP! Bolting from the mounting block is a dangerous problem that can become a learned behavior even after the underlying issue (which is typically pain) is resolved…

My first thought is kissing spine, because I had a horse in training who did the exact same thing and he was eventually diagnosed with KS. With pain management, a new saddle, and some retraining, he did get to the point where he would stand. He did pretty well for a few years but is now retired. So even though you have a relatively recent bone scan, it’s definitely something I would revisit. In the shorter term, absolutely work out the saddle fit issue. Some horses are just so sensitive and will not hesitate to express that something is uncomfortable. In a way, that’s kind of a useful diagnostic tool. The ones who stay quiet are harder to help.

Also, maybe do some carrot (or whatever healthy treat you prefer) stretches both before and after saddling? She may be a little sore after day 1 and 2 and that’s causing some tension. That tension is then released in the form of a bolt from the block on day 3. I would also consider doing 10, 15, 30? minutes of purposeful handwalking prior to mounting. These are the kinds of things we did with the horse I mentioned above and it really helped him.

Good luck and be safe!

[Jealoushe]

What was the leg injury? Since the bolting occured since that happened, I would say the leg is still in pain, OR the back has become sore due to the lameness and compensating.

I would do a full lameness exam focused on the back/withers. Chiro adjustment.

For the future if this is not pain related, I have some tips in riding a horse like this. Practice swinging on quickly on another horse. Dont try and get the second stirrup. Get a neck strap. Put your foot in the stirrup and as quick and smooth as you can climb on, get into 2 point and grab the neck strap/mane. Once she bolts, instead of trying to pull her back, kick her on and send her around the arena and make her work. Have your trainer hold a lunge line to help if you need it.

[JB]

@Mareish

after a long layup from an injury to a front leg that is now largely resolved

What injury, how long a layup, and what work prior to ridden work was done for rehab?

@Mareish

She palpated very slightly sore in her back after that per the vet, so we had the chiro treat her and decided to prioritize increasing her turnout for a few months while I healed. Because of restricted turnout, we suspected it could have been pent up energy and did not necessarily assume it was pain at that point.

Soreness is pain. Not seeing how the vet did the palpation exercise it’s hard to know what all this means. Was it on one side of the back, but not the other side in the same area? Where exactly?

@Mareish

I was once again on day 3 of getting on her. Again, no incident on days 1 and 2.

What work, for how long, on days 1 and 2? Any in-hand work before each ride? Any in-hand work in the days or weeks leading up to day 1?

@Mareish

The only difference between the time she bolted and the times she didn’t is that she had more open space in front of her the way the mounting block was positioned, and I used a slightly thinner saddle pad that is more prone to bridging

Saddles bridge, pads don’t. Can you explain more? Are you saying she bolted with more space in front of her?

@Mareish

My saddle is no longer perfect on her after she’s had nearly a year off, but it had been fitted to her and the chiro does not think it would be causing pain.

A year off for a horse who was in regular work is likely to cause major changes in saddle fit. What qualifications does the chiro have in saddle fitting?

It all really sounds like days 1 and 2 were not comfortable but not bad, but day 3 really shows how sore the saddle is making her.

We can wear a poor-fitting shoe a day or 2 and not feel awful, but the next day, or the next, and it’s all adding up and our feet hurt.

[RW06]

I had one that did this. Ultimately, we learned it was a combination of saddle fit and an undiagnosed cyst in his left elbow. We also did some groundwork to re-teach him the basics of mounting quietly once that was dealt with, but looking back I wish we had been more aggressive with getting a PERFECT saddle fit as he is very sensitive to that. It’s hard to know how much the cyst played into that as well, but given the role of the left front in weightbearing on mounting I’m sure it was not insignificant. I would start with saddle and make sure the leg is clean.

I did find though that he was much better to get on after he had worked a little bit, whether on the lunge or under saddle so if you can let him move around before getting on you might find that helps.

[IPEsq]

Not with bolting but coming back from a long layup, mine took to mounting fine then rearing when asked to walk off. Among other things. The vets described his apaxial muscles as feeling like steel tubes running along his spine. Unfortunately, correct exercise is probably the best way to resolve the issue. But it’s hard to do that if they object.

First, I’d xray and rule out kissing spines. Even if the hors didn’t have a problem when in the prior career, layups are not good for horses with any kind of back issues, especially KS. They lose core strength and muscular support.

If that’s not it, I’d try other saddle pad setups and shims to correct the bridging issue. Bridging can cause too much pressure either on the withers or towards the lumbar, or both. My bet would be more on the lower back area given that she’s ok for a couple of days. You can either just stick some shims directly under the saddle or get a half pad with 3 pockets and use the center pocket for the shim. It sounds like she’s really sensitive to saddles. You may have to look for a saddle alternative to what you’ve got until she builds muscle again.

Do not get on every day at this point. Yes, the horse is cleared for tack walking. But it’s not working. How is she for hand walking? Could you add something like the Equicore system on hand walk days? If she’s not good for hand walking, you may need to look into sending her to a place where she can get on a treadmill–dry or water–to get farther along in the rehab before you get back on. Treadmill is more mental work than hand walking and can be good for the explosive ones (been there, done that myself). If hand walking is ok, you could also do some days where you include walking over poles.

There are stretches you can do on the ground to target the mutifidus muscles. These are the ones that support the area of the back where the rider sits and play an important role in preventing back pain. Studies have found that doing these stretches for a couple sessions a day really increased the cross sectional area of these muscles. The stretches will also strengthen some of the other core muscles. Think of them more as muscle activation rather than stretching–although forward bending stretches to the point where the back raises but before she bends her knees are the main activating movement.

As far as additional vet type approaches, you could try a course of methocarbamol to try to get through this phase. It is probably too early for mesotherapy, but acupuncture in conjunction with the chiro may help. Warming the back before you get on. I like the Back on Track back warmer pad thing, but a heated blanket would work, things like that.

[IPEsq]

Oh, I’ll add with my horse, I also taught him how to park better at the mounting block. I taught him how to swing his haunches over to park. The theory behind it is kind of woo woo, but you ask the horse to present himself to be ridden versus making them stand there and having to hold on etc. Now, with a bolter, you will still want your trainer there. Mine mostly got pissy and would tend to get light in front and swing his body away. I worked a long time on just getting him to swing his body over to me. You train it along the rail since they first have to learn to essentially move into pressure. Scratches and treats tend to help. I’ve subsequently taught several other horses to do this, and it especially helps those that have anxiety about mounting of any kind, pain memory or not.

[Posting_Trot]

You may have been doing this, but you should try hand-walking her under tack for 15 minutes, maybe walking over some ground poles, before you get on. Don’t get on if she objects while being hand-walked.

It may be that she needs to warm up before she has the weight of an adult on her back.

Definitely you should check, and triple-check, saddle fit. Go online for some pointers about how a saddle should fit. Anything that’s “bridging” may be putting a lot of pressure on vulnerable or weak areas of her back, or there may be painful pinching.

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

To add to what others said above, did your vet have you do any hand walking before tack walking? Typically I’ve seen rehabs start with 5 min of hand walking that was upped weekly by 5 min until you hit 15-30 min (depending on the horse). Walking over poles and different circle sizes were dictated by the injury and what the vet wanted. Than depending on the injury and how the hand walking went, you may be cleared for 5 min of walking under saddle after a 15-30 min warm up of walking in hand. Than slowly the time hand walking went down and walking under saddle went up until you are at 45-60 min of walk. After that the trot is added in.

[JB]

TBH, I think asking a horse to park out is unhealthy in the best of times, and terrible if there are any sort of known or suspected back issues.

[Mareish]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far!

Answers to the commonly asked questions:

• She is currently out 24/7 with a run-in so she has a lot of opportunity to move on her own. In addition, we did 10 and then up to 30 minutes of walking in hand including over poles and cavallettis before we started tack walking. She has no issue with this (or with tack walking once I’m on). I also worked with a groundwork trainer (new for me as a hunter rider) with her for a few weeks while I was sidelined because of my injury. No issues there either. I’ve been walking her in hand 5-10 minutes before getting on.
• Her front leg injury was a blind medial splint. It took two surgeries (one January, back to tack walking without incident in April but unsound again in June, and another in July) due to bone re-growth after the first surgery. She has a fair amount of scar tissue now, but is sound apart from an occasional short step (does not block and vets have concluded is mechanical – hopefully to improve with a gradual return to work, if we can manage that!). My vet confirmed again today that you cannot make her react to palpation on that leg no matter what you do. We do not think this is the issue, which is why I didn’t go into detail in my original post.
• Because of the medial splint, we have wanted to avoid lunging her as part of her rehab (i.e. no lunging with tack as a warmup before mounting), but my vet said today that we could consider it if necessary.
• My vet looked at my saddle on her today and also does not believe it could be causing pain, but I am looking into other saddles that I can borrow. I have shimmable half pads as well, but there is nothing that obviously requires shimming. Once my vets exhaust options on their side, I would also happily get a saddle fitter out. I am not riding her again until we have more information.
• My comment re the saddle pad bridging – perhaps that was the wrong word. I meant that the pad has a flatter profile and a thinner material, like a baby pad, and therefore tends to rest on the withers more than the pads I had used in the first two rides. Considering she let me get on immediately after bolting with no tack adjustments, I doubt this is related.
• When she palpated sore after the August incidents, it was her lower back, left side. The chiro said that her SI/pelvis were out, and she responded well to adjustments. She was rechecked and adjusted again right before I got on her for the first time recently.
• I have been giving her 3-5 days off in between tack walking days, so consecutive days is not the issue. She had 5 days off between day 2 of tack walking (no incident) and day 3 (bolting), with some walking in hand in between.
• I’ve been doing carrot stretches with her in the past few weeks. I have been doing them before tacking up when I’m planning to ride.
• I have not tried an equiband but will definitely talk to my vets about that. Thanks for the suggestion!

And a quick update: my vet palpated her back today, and she was not at all reactive. Nothing on her withers or her shoulders either. Current working theory, if it’s not bad behavior, is a possible compression issue in her neck. The surgeon is going to come out to look at her in the next few days, and we’ll probably start with xrays and progress to myelogram if necessary. I feel pretty confident there is pain underlying this somewhere, and I don’t think it is only saddle fit though will definitely explore that too, but I am really not ready for more vet bills after the 2020 she has already had.

[IPEsq]

@JB

TBH, I think asking a horse to park out is unhealthy in the best of times, and terrible if there are any sort of known or suspected back issues.

Not sure if that was in reply to me mentioning parking. But I did not mean “park out”. I mean more like parallel park. Rather than leading the horse next to the block, you walk to it head on and then ask the horse to swing the haunches over, coming toward you, to then be stopped next to the block. I teach the cue to be me raising my right hand in the air like I’m hailing a cab. In my experience, once they are good with that part, the anxiety about the getting on part is gone.

Definitely adopting a parked out stance is not good.

[IPEsq]

Ok, with more information, what you describe is not bridging. Just withers pressure on the pad. Bridging is when the saddle rails are too straight so there’s a gap in contact of the panels in the middle of the saddle.

Time off as well as being laid down for surgeries isn’t kind to the neck, back or pelvis. I’ve seen bolting happen with neck horses. Given location of soreness, SI, back and saddle should all still be on the list. Sometimes, the SI issue causes back pain. Often thoracolumbar on the opposite side of where the SI problem is. So, right SI joint would affect the muscles of the low back on the left side more. But SI and neck often go together.

Probably some walking every day would be good in addition to those core exercises. Even though she has turnout, keeping up with the 30 mins of walking in hand, poles, etc. won’t hurt. If you add in the equicore, go slowly (just a couple minutes) and start in hand only.

Neck and back xrays aren’t too expensive really. Or you could ultrasound, which can give you potentially some more information. Also for not a ton of money like myelogram territory.

Considering the safety issue, I’d be inclined to go ahead with some imaging and just going back to hand walking only in the meantime.

[Pally]

Agree that this definitely sounds like pain/discomfort given the “newness” of it, and that you’re right to rule that out.

Along with what has been mentioned above regarding saddle fit, also consider girth fit/comfort. Both along the sternum and at the sides (especially the right, as that gets all the pressure when you step in the left stirrup). Also take a look at the caudal aspect of the scapula (again, especially right, but either or) as this is another area that may be under more pressure during mounting than just walking around.

If you have access to a good bodyworker/massage therapist, that is an aspect I would consider adding to your team (with the vets blessing and cooperation, of course). I know you have the chiro on the case, but someone who specializes in the soft tissues may be able to help find (and unravel) compensation patterns that are likely happening after her injury and time off.

[Mareish]

I should have mentioned that she gets fairly regular body work too. Nothing out of the ordinary for her lately, according to the massage therapist. Good ideas on checking the girth comfort (though this is the same I’ve always had her in) and the scapula.

[JB]

@IPEsq

Not sure if that was in reply to me mentioning parking. But I did not mean “park out”. I mean more like parallel park.

It was, and I was too lazy to go back and quote, and now that I DID go back and re-read your comment, I clearly didn’t read it properly to begin with - apologies!

I actually like the idea of an exercise before mounting - it gives you a chance to see where their head is, and gives them another signal that school is in session.

[Critter]

I have a similar issue with my one youngster…just throwing this out there since you mentioned that she did it once before the injury. To me that suggests it might not be related to the injury at all. The first time my guy did it was a shock and I ended up landing hard on my back from halfway on (and he is nearly 18h at 4!)…got a bit of a concussion. The other time I was more prepared and was able to get onto my feet and keep a hold of him. In his case, when I sent him to be started under saddle, they expected him to be a piece of cake since he was so agreeable with the rest of the groundwork. So the skipped forward a bit and the first time they tossed the exercise rider up, he panicked. I think in part because he is so tall, it was tricky to “lay” over and the rider had to jump up to get onto him even with a mounting block. Needless to say, he panicked, reared and had a melt down. Then the trainer ended up using blinkers for the first month as he was so freaked about mounting (once someone was on he was fine)…and please don’t judge, I wasn’t aware of the episode until later in the training. After I had the two episodes with the bolting at home after he had been under saddle for several months, I sent him to a different trainer to work on the mounting issue (think Warwick Schiller/TNT/groundwork type trainer). This made a huge difference. That said, I’ve found his triggers when mounting…ie you have to do a few minutes of sacking out once you are on the mounting block…and you cannot adjust the reins while you are in the swing the leg over moment. If he rests his hind foot at the block then that’s my cue he is good to mount. If he’s had time off mounting is a much longer process…if he is working every day I can almost get right on at the block. Maybe your horse has a way back episode that triggers with some combination of things and it’s come to the surface with being out of work and ridden regularly? Just a thought…but good luck, as I can appreciate how scary it is when you are in that very vulnerable moment of mounting!

[Mareish]

This is also entirely possible! Given that she tried to run over my trainer this time, who she adores and generally follows around like a puppy dog, I feel like we have to do what we can to rule out pain. But if we do rule out that and saddle fit, then off to a trainer for remedial work she will go! (And possibly even if we find a pain explanation, if/when she’s ready for work again in the future.)

[Jealoushe]

Sometimes a saddle looks and feels like its fine but in the end, it is not fine. If the vet work is exhausted I would maybe have a fitter out to look at her and the saddle, even though you think its a non issue.