Great information, thank you! What I glean from the above is that the discussion surrounds the bigger difference between dressage as art and dressage as sport. I have long thought that the twain shall never meet. “Dressage in Lightness” is the French school, and the ideal for that point of view. The German school is more focused on competition, IMO. Riding back to front and use of diagonal aids. The French school teaches self carriage first, when in the German school, self-carriage is the end goal. Yes, this is a gross oversimplification, but when we put it into the context of judging competition, we can see why there are no agreed upon standards by which to judge. Because the judges are all looking at the rides they judge through different lenses.
This. Exactly this. And it is covered in the L program, and in continuing judges training (though not dwelled on because it is rare). You do occasionally see a horse buck, bolt, and keep bucking. I has happened to me. Scoring a 0, 1, or 2 depending on how severe. This horse should not receive the same score as a horse who props and snorts then goes on tense and maybe counterbent at the same spooky thing. Probably a 3 or 4 depending how much of the movement is completed before or after the spook. According to an S judge I know, the 2 and below should be reserved for violent disobediences. If there is not one of these all day in a ring, the judge might not use these scores at all that day. It doesn’t mean she wouldn’t if they applied let alone that there is not a consensus or training on when they should be used.
Thank you. I agree with what you have said.
I used to belong to Allege-Ideal, and have taken lessons with Col. Carde. I quit all my horsey memberships years ago when I got sick of the politics.
This is exactly what I am speaking of…every judge has their opinion on what merits what score.
I don’t see anywhere in the descriptors of the scores that identify a score for “violent disobedience.”
The low scores (those below “5” - Marginal / Sufficient) are:
4 Insufficient
3 Fairly Bad
2 Bad
1 Very Bad
0 Not executed
So if the disobedience was large enough, perhaps the movement was not executed and would properly deserve a “0”. If the disobedience was a buck (let’s say in a canter depart, or a flying change)…maybe the score merits a 1-Very Bad. There is definitely room to debate a 2 vs a 3…eg., Bad and Fairly Bad.
I am convinced that this “waffling” about scoring is due to civilians taking over dressage. In the days when the military were the decisionmakers, things seemed like scoring was much more clear cut and black and white.
I used to ride with an old cavalry colonel rooted in the French school. He was the former FEI delegate from his home country before emigrating to the US. He used to talk about discussions with DeCarpentry. His age went with the year, so he would have been 123 were he still alive. If I rode a horse and the face went behind the vertical, I can still hear him say “Automatic 4!!!”
So, based on my personal journey, things were “Sufficient” (5) or "Insufficient (4) and there was not too much wiggle room for interpretation.
Just as @Scribbler describes grade inflation in the university where she teaches
I believe we have “grade inflation” in dressage scores. Back in the dark ages, a 50-65% was considered a perfectly good score…and scores in the 70%'s were stratospheric. I don’t think the judges used the whole scale back then, but a score of “5” was considered “Sufficient”…eg., good enough.
100% This!
I can recall winning lower level classes with a score slightly below 60% back in the day. The first time I broke 70% was in a 2nd level freestyle.
If you want to read more, @Arlomine posted a great discussion about the French system, vs the German.
Definition of On-the-Bit
It is written by Dr. Max Gahwyler with Bettina Drummond. “Dr. Max” was a doctor who emigrated from Switzerland and settled in Connecticut. Bettina’s farm was located in CT. They give a great discussion comparing the “old” vs the “new.”
More on Dr. Max
A Tribute after his death
A USDF article
Gahwyler was an “S” judge and was also an historian, so he and Bettina are both in a great position to discuss the evolution of dressage, from the manege to its current incarnation in modern competition…and all the variants in between.
Yes. I had the pleasure of showing for him when he was judging back in the day. 
Yes. And this is a challenge for those of us riding the Iberians, who (IMO and IMLimited experience) find their balance going slow with small steps - not “pushed into balance in motion” as the WB seem to be able to do - emphasized by the more Germanic training theories. We have to be so careful who we climic or train with!
This is not true. When to use those lower scores is covered, as mentioned, in the judge training. One example is the “4” given when there is a mistake in the counting of tempis or the canter HP zig zag, or a single late behind in tempis or in a single FC… and if there are more mistakes in the line, 3s are given. Doesnt matter how fab the gaits are.
Actually an explosive canter depart probably would not be a 3… MAYBE a 4. Probably 5. Remember there is more to that box than just the transition… And of course the level is considered. If its TL test 1, just introducing canter, that depart might not be penalized as highly… because of course there is a continuum of expectations as you go up the levels and the horse is more trained.
Huh??? Here is the USDF Tr-1,
Assuming this is a recognized show…let’s discuss the Test Purpose and the Directives for the Trot-Canter transitions as the basis for a score if a horse bucks/hops going into the canter.
Purpose
To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as the thrust to perform lengthenings of stride. The horse should be on the bit.
Starting with the above…a buck going into a canter transitions IMHO does NOT demonstrate “correct basics.”
The Directives for Movement 8
Willing,clear transitions; regularity and quality of gaits; bend and balance in corners
The transition sets up the movement. If the horse gives a buck/hop going from trot to canter, in my book the score for that box would be “2 Bad” to “1 Very Bad.”
Giving a Tr level rider a higher score because you want to be “nice” does the rider no favors. Let them go back and figure out how to do a proper T-C transition before taking this horse to a show.
To be nitpicky: the directive for the current training level tests uses different terminology. (See below.) The words “on the bit” occur in directives for first level and above.
In all my years of scribing, I have never heard a judge give a “1” or “2” for a buck or hop in a transition. The judge will give a “3” or “4” and note “tension” or “disobedient” in the remarks. I have scribed for “I” and “O” judges. I have only seen a lower score if the horse absolutely will not perform the transition. The only time I ever heard of a “0” being given was when a judge did not see a movement. I never experienced that while scribing,. If the judge was distracted and did not see a movement, they would ask me if it was performed. If it was, they would look at all the scores at the end of the test and calculate an average, giving that score for movement they missed.
To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, by showing suppleness both
laterally and longitudinally, moving freely forward in a clear rhythm with a steady
tempo, and readily accepting contact with the bit. Correct geometry and lines of travel
should be shown.
All trot work may be ridden sitting or rising, unless otherwise stated.
Halts may be through the walk
But in a lot of cases the transition itself isn’t the sole element of the movement. For example if one movement is canter transition at A, and the next movement is 20m circle at B, the score is going to be based on the transition plus all the canter between A and B. If the rest of the canter is good, a little resistance in the transition isn’t going to bring the whole score down to a 3.
In the case where the movement is literally just the transition, as long as the horse moves from one gait to the next (trot to canter, for example) at the letter, in my experience a buck or hop will get a 4, possibly a 3 with a comment of “disobedience.” Only if no canter occurs anywhere near the letter where the transition happens would I expect to see a 1 or 2, with comments of “disobedience” and “late trans.”
Another reason people need to read the entire test sheet and not just the movements. The directives give some really good clues as to what is being judged for each movement.
We don’t each get to make up our own standards. They have been decided upon by a team of very experienced judges. You would fail the L exam for this departure from established standards, whether you like the standards or not. If the horse who gives a little hop during the depart gets a 1 or 2 them what would you give the horse who takes off bucking across the arena?
This is not the Training Level purpose. This is for First Level. Edited to add: see Sparkygrace’s post for the correct Training Level purpose.
I agree that you should be reasonably proficient at the level at home before taking the horse to a show. But quite often green horses are nervous and perform less well than at home. At the first few shows one of the main objectives to work toward, not always achieved on the first try, is to keep the horse’s attention in a more challenging environment well enough to perform similarly to how they are working at home. Of course horses at Training Level who exhibit tense but not explosive behavior should not be given the same score as if they were relaxed, confident, and attentive to their rider. But they don’t need to be taken to the very bottom of the score range either. Judges are not supposed to assume anything one way or the other about whether the horse’s behavior or performance in a particular test is typical of their performance at home under less stressful conditions. Spectators shouldn’t either.
This is not how it works. A buck or a hop into the canter would be a 3 or a 4. Do you show? Or attend shows as a spectator? Or have you scribed? I think you would be pretty shocked that your interpretation of the rules is not accurate.
You are correct. I posted the link to the First Level test… This is what happens when you try to multi-task.
I wish I remembered who the judge was who I scribed for… I have always understood that an 8 or 9 doesn’t change the score of a reasonably done test like a 2 does because…math. But I scribed for a judge who made that same point, and said she scored up every chance she had, including for the movements where gait quality wasn’t as involved for correct horses who weren’t flashy. It was fun seeing the whole range of scores!
I believe that judge had given me 9s on medium walk on my mare who has very mediocre gaits, but has a walk which easily turns into piaffe when asked, the reason I bought her as my first dressage youngster - I wanted to make teaching a horse the movements easier for me. And every judge who gave me 9s on her medium walk was someone whose riding history had multiple horses trained to GP. The ones who didn’t, had decided she was a 6 mover and there was no way I was scoring above 7 on anything.
Then the horse is not ready to “show”. You can easily get a horse experience in “challenging environments” that are not shows by taking the horse to unjudged events such as trail rides, hound walking, paper chases, etc.
From the USDF Article
“…to a very large extent, dressage in America is test riding, pure and simple, particularly at the AHSA [now US Equestrian Federation] levels. It is the tests that determine the training and movements we are learning and practicing. This is nothing new and was already recognized by [the late US eventing-team] coach Jack Le Goff, who stated, shortly after he came to the United States, that Americans don’t want to learn how to ride but how to compete.”
Huh??? The final score on a dressage test is a simple arithmetic percentage.
Sum of all the points / Divide by Max Points = Equals Test Percent Score
So to illustrate, assuming hypothetical test of 5 movements with max points = 50
1+7+7+2+8 = 25 -->> 25/50= 50%
5+5+5+5+5 = 25 -->> 25/50= 50%
Just to illustrate that you can use the whole scale, or you can play it safe and use the middle of the scoring scale to get the same final percentage. The rider would probably get better feedback on weak points if judges used more of the whole scale.
Repeating because needs to be seen! Well said
I think the math that @netg was referring to was that if most movements on the test are 6s or 7s, a movement at 8 or 9 will have only a small effect on the score (close to the mean already), as opposed to throwing in a 2 which would have a larger effect (further from the mean).
