Musings on the meanings of scores

[SillyHorse]

@emeraldcity

I think the math that @netg was referring to was that if most movements on the test are 6s or 7s, a movement at 8 or 9 will have only a small effect on the score (close to the mean already), as opposed to throwing in a 2 which would have a larger effect (further from the mean).

That’s how I understood it, as well.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

So to illustrate, assuming hypothetical test of 5 movements with max points = 50
1+7+7+2+8 = 25 -->> 25/50= 50%
5+5+5+5+5 = 25 -->> 25/50= 50%

Perhaps a clearer illustration:

1+6+6+6+6 = 25 -->> 25/50 = 50%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

8+6+6+6+6 = 32 -->> 32/50 = 64%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

[enjoytheride]

@pluvinel

Then the horse is not ready to “show”. You can easily get a horse experience in “challenging environments” that are not shows by taking the horse to unjudged events such as trail rides, hound walking, paper chases, etc.

My been there done that trail horse was spooky at his first show. No bleachers in the woods. It is ok to take green horse to shows. That’s how they become not green.

[pluvinel]

@enjoytheride

My been there done that trail horse was spooky at his first show. No bleachers in the woods. It is ok to take green horse to shows. That’s how they become not green.

Then ride HC. No reason to dumb down the grading because the horse is showing at the lower levels.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

Perhaps a clearer illustration:

1+6+6+6+6 = 25 -->> 25/50 = 50%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

8+6+6+6+6 = 32 -->> 32/50 = 64%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

Huh??? This is apples and potatoes. If you sum to 60% it is 60% regardless of how you got there. You are comparing two different total scores. And of course the higher scoring hypothetical rider should get a better score.

What I am saying is that you can get to the SAME score by using more of the judging scale and provide greater spectrum of performance if the horse/rider merit the hi and AND the low scores.

Using your example:
8+6+6+6+6 = 32 -->> 32/50 = 64%
4+6+6+6+10 = 32 -->> 32/50 = 64%

6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%
4+4+6+6+10 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

[Bonnie2]

I did like “sufficient”. It said what it meant and meant what it said.

[enjoytheride]

@pluvinel

Then ride HC. No reason to dumb down the grading because the horse is showing at the lower levels.

Do you show at all?

Define what you mean by my showing a green horse in the lower levels as “dumbing down the grading.?”

What about upper level horses that spook at shows?

[fivestrideline]

I don’t go here, but there’s a post going around my social media saying:

“Horses don’t get broke at home. Be brave and enter!”

Nothing prepares a horse (and rider!) for showing quite like… showing. Show the babies on the line, take the OTTBs to a show to trot around the week they come off the track, enter classes that are easy and don’t go looking for ribbons.

[netg]

@SillyHorse

Perhaps a clearer illustration:

1+6+6+6+6 = 25 -->> 25/50 = 50%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

8+6+6+6+6 = 32 -->> 32/50 = 64%
6+6+6+6+6 = 30 -->> 30/50 = 60%

Right. A rider who is about a 6 typically will get hammered for a mistake as the judge happily goes down… but rarely will they go up, and even if they give one 8, it doesn’t make the difference the one 1 would in the overall score.

I have a mare who judges either liked and gave 7s for canter work, 6s for trot, and 4 or lower for every mistake, or gave nothing above a 6 and hit us everywhere they could. Similar rides, but she looks fancy dressage bred, when she was actually bred for athletic and efficient movement (well over 1/2 TB), so if judges assumed our work was keeping her from having suspension and loft they thought we were awful, and hit us in scores accordingly. Typically older judges who were looking for correct work understood her to have her strengths and with mistakes we could make high 60s.
My current mare, I have shown under 3 judges and been unhappy with all rides (but as noted, we need mileage to improve the ability to do the rides.) Every test was a 68.something, I believe. Totally different horse, and judges were far happier to go to 8 with her. The only score I’ve gotten lower than a 6.5 on her was rider score from one judge who apparently thought my horse had trained herself.

[pluvinel]

@netg

I have a mare who judges either liked and gave 7s for canter work, 6s for trot, and 4 or lower for every mistake, or gave nothing above a 6 and hit us everywhere they could. Similar rides, but she looks fancy dressage bred, when she was actually bred for athletic and efficient movement (well over 1/2 TB), so if judges assumed our work was keeping her from having suspension and loft they thought we were awful, and hit us in scores accordingly. Typically older judges who were looking for correct work understood her to have her strengths and with mistakes we could make high 60s.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about that judging has A LOT of variability and that variability is detrimental to the riders, the breeders and the sport.

And that the variability and be analyzed, quantified, and improved.

[pluvinel]

@enjoytheride

What about upper level horses that spook at shows?

Well, they should be severely judged and given an appropriately low score. If they are upper level, I can assume they are more experienced and have been out in the show circuit.

Here is Sergei Filatov on Absent, Akhal Teke stallion, rode in Rome Olympics in 1960. I believe Absent was 8 years old at the time. Watch til the end

Sergej Filatow - Absent - Rom 1960

[BigMama1]

DH has been on a dumb rant lately about how GP horses in a CDI should never ever spook and should be so perfectly trained by that level anyone could ride them.

Another perfect example of her not having a clue what she’s talking about. To be successful at the international level and no have the brilliance required, most of horses are hotter and sharper than anything we mere mortals are capable of riding. Sometimes that fire gets a bit too hot, especially in an electric atmosphere.

[lorilu]

@pluvinel

If they are upper level, I can assume they are more experienced and have been out in the show circuit.

Many International horses are not brought out until PSG; maybe they did some young horse classes…

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

Many International horses are not brought out until PSG; maybe they did some young horse classes…

The old cavalry colonel I spoke of upthread used to say the “Dressage doesn’t start until PSG”…

If you watch any of the old USEF George Morris “Horsemastership” clinics he used to hold in Wellington in January, he basically uses tools of 4th Level up to and including half-pass as exercises to prepare the horse.

[lorilu]

So for you it is all or nothing? In my example, the buck in the canter depart, he DID canter. IF the score is ONLY for the depart, it would warrant a low score, but not a 0 or 1… At TL, there is more in that box than just the transition.

Just because you think it is a 1 or2, and you think every directive must be mastered perfectly for a middling score, does nt mean there are not standards that judges are expected to hold to. You just disagree with those standards. Does not mean they dont exist, or, if applied in a standard way, useful.Aand again, I encourage you to scribe for a “r” or “R” or even “S” judge program.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

Does not mean they dont exist, or, if applied in a standard way, useful.Aand again, I encourage you to scribe for a “r” or “R” or even “S” judge program.

I have done all of the above. Scribed for some “names” including Axel Steiner and Michael Handler…son of Hans Handler, at Dressage at Devon.

Handler was the best judge I have ever scribed for… a scoring machine who knew exactly why he was giving a score… and willing to entertain questions from an inquisitive scribe.

[lorilu]

I did not say scribe for a judge. I said scribe for those in a PROGRAM, where you get to hear the expectation and how scores are developed. And many fo those old guard judges were grandfathered in and have not gone through the training programs, altho there are required judge forums (IIRC, every attend one every 2 years??)

[sparkygrace]

This is a difficult conversation to have as so much has changed in the last 40-50 years. When I started in dressage, warmbloods were a rarity and they were mostly culls from Holland and Germany. Off-breeds were the norm. Good dressage instruction, if any, was very hard to find so most people were self-taught. For a typical amateur who learned on their own, a good score was 55% and anything over 60% was pretty exciting.

Have the standards changed? I don’t think so. The sport now is dominated by well-bred warmbloods and, as the sport has flourished, there are lots of good instructors and riders are better. There are shows almost everywhere and the USDF has provided education and support. The reality is the big, elastic movers can score one or more points higher on each movement in contrast to an average moving horse. That’s not really score inflation.

The video of the Akhal Teke @pluvinel posted does show a very correct piaffe/passage. He is an example of a hotter breed, yet so focused. It’s hard to compare to warmbloods now, as they have been bred with more “blood” and can be quite hot. That’s on the breeders. They aren’t robots and things happen. That’s horses.

[BigMama1]

@pluvinel

a scoring machine who knew exactly why he was giving a score… and willing to entertain questions from an inquisitive scribe.

Almost every single judge I’ve scribed for fits that description.

[enjoytheride]

@pluvinel

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about that judging has A LOT of variability and that variability is detrimental to the riders, the breeders and the sport.

And that the variability and be analyzed, quantified, and improved.

Riding is not engineering. You can’t understand dressage with an engineer’s brain.