[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5934062]
Re. felines: spray them with water if they misbehave… 
You’ll never see a cat get off the kitchen counter as fast! Quick, painless… and long-distance-capable. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
These are no ordinary cats. Duchess, who earns her name, just rolls her belly up and stares at me while I spray her. I can soak her and she will just lay there with her accusatory eyes, taking it. It is unlike anything I have ever seen. They are great, sweet cats but are incorrigible.
[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5934062]
Re. felines: spray them with water if they misbehave… You’ll never see a cat get off the kitchen counter as fast! Quick, painless… and long-distance-capable. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Yup! Mine too. He might vocally protest, but there is just no getting away from that strong stream of water! Kitty has long since learned certain objects are not jumped on without resulting in getting seriously wet, so whatever it was he was going after had better be good and worth it. :lol:
Canned air also works. My cats haaaate being sprayed with canned air.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;5934070]
These are no ordinary cats. Duchess, who earns her name, just rolls her belly up and stares at me while I spray her. I can soak her and she will just lay there with her accusatory eyes, taking it. It is unlike anything I have ever seen. They are great, sweet cats but are incorrigible.[/QUOTE]
Ok, you and Rodawn have hardcore cats like my parents’…
My mom simply finally accepted that she would never have furniture in any good condition until the cats die of old age! :lol:
Ooooohhh! I have never had to try that… I’ll tell my mom with the Devilish cats though! :winkgrin:
See, the picture you are painting is of a very bossy, alpha gal who is willing to do what you want when she wants to do it. When she doesn’t all bets are off.
Amastrike, you are NOT a “bad owner” you are simply inexperienced with youngsters.
It’s very easy to be over tolerant with a foal because they are so cute and stuff. But just like being a parent, too much laxness and love simply makes for a spoiled, self-centered child.
The filly I had this year (o/o a Weltmeyer mare, so maybe that had something to do with it) is one of the boldest, sassiest gals I’ve ever had. She is supreme alpha in the making (like her mom).
Very little scared her, and when she was 3+ mos old she would wiggle out of my high=tensile fence (charger wasn’t working) LEAVE HER DAM and go off the property with her evil cousin who is one year old and also snuck out.
Well, I figured she’d be really easy to wean, right? Think again! She got so ticked off she started going through the fence again, even when it was hot! She did that 4x till I finally put her back with her dam, for fear she would get hurt.
Then I got panels to line that part of the fence and we just weaned again today. I’ll let you know how it works 
In 14 years I have NEVER had to do that with a foal!
However, even at her age, and with that attitude, she walks nicely in hand and would not DARE think of lifting a hind leg at me.
The personal space issue is HUGE and the best place to start, as this is the cornerstone of equine communication. From now on every single day when you feed her, she must back up, standing quietly till YOU say so (pick a hand signal that means “you may approach” and be totally consistent in using it). Ditto with going through a gate.
She must walk quietly by your side. When you slow down, she slows down. When you speed up, she speeds up. When you back up, she backs up.
Do this stuff every day without fail and in afew MONTHS she will stop testing you on these matters, but there will be more, I can guarantee you.
I am not a big advocate of chains unless the person is very skilled with them and releasing the pressure. I prefer beginners use a thin rope halter instead.
Make sure when she’s good you release, but feel free to go to town on her if she’s naughty.
Also, you might try getting John Lyons book “Bringing up Baby”…I’m sure you could get it used on Amazon.
Foals can be just as dangerous as grown horses and no one wants to see you get hurt.
You little darlin’ needs some serious tough love. Trust me, you could visit my place and the horses cluster around me – they certainly are NOT afraid of me.
But they are well behaved for their age/breed/sex. And that is because, until they get a job and buy their own hay, it’s my way or the highway…
Good luck.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;5934070]
These are no ordinary cats. Duchess, who earns her name, just rolls her belly up and stares at me while I spray her. I can soak her and she will just lay there with her accusatory eyes, taking it. It is unlike anything I have ever seen. They are great, sweet cats but are incorrigible.[/QUOTE]
http://www.plasma2002.com/blenderdefender/
evil grin
If I remember correctly - my boy has the same sire as your filly. As a tiny little guy I made sure he knew I was in charge. I only had to get really aggressive twice. Once when he was a few weeks old and threw a fit when I was picking up his feet - something we’d been doing daily since he was born. He finally threw himself to the ground just like a kid when I went for his foot the third time. I happened to fall with him - since I had his foot - and, right or wrong - my first instinct was to pin his little butt to the ground. He stopped struggling, I jumped off him, patted his head, praised him with my voice, we both stood back up and finished the feet lesson with no issues. I think now he still thinks I can pin him to the ground. And, the second time was when he learned how to rear. I got a metal bottle and filled it with BBs. He reared at me in his stall - I ran at him screaming and shaking that bottle. Scared the daylights out of him. That only took one lesson. He’s never reared near me again.
My guy is a bold little thing. But, it only takes my vocal displeasure with him as discipline. I’m sure your girl is very similar and will learn very quickly what you expect. So, don’t lose hope. They really want to please you. Stay consistent with your expectations. Good Luck!
[QUOTE=ASBJumper;5934138]
http://www.plasma2002.com/blenderdefender/
evil grin[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol: I NEED one!
And, the second time was when he learned how to rear. I got a metal bottle and filled it with BBs. He reared at me in his stall - I ran at him screaming and shaking that bottle. Scared the daylights out of him. That only took one lesson. He’s never reared near me again.
Rearing can also be fixed (from the ground) by hitting them below the knee with a whip when they rear.
I find that a wiffle bat (plastic, hollow baseball bat made for young kids) is a great tool. They make a big noise when you need to use it, but it’s bark is much bigger than it’s bite.
Bad behavior can’t be tolerated, no doubt. Foals need to be taught the basics of equine citizenship, of course. I live by the philosophy I heard once that if you are going to punish a horse for bad behavior, you need to be able to make them think they are going to die within about a 1/2 second of the behavior and then immediately go back to normal.
But many times threads like these seem to be about problems when someone is trying to do too much, too often with young horses. Typically an owner with just 1 or 2 horses. Some people just are not good at being able to escalate their own energy level fast and high enough to get that “oh my god, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!!!” reaction out of a horse (had to laugh that someone else throws plastic buckets, flip flops, whatever). Adolescents of every species are going to misbehave occasionally at authority figures, so I just don’t understand the purpose of overbearing, overfrequent, sometimes ineffective “lessons” when lots of the silliness and drama will go away with age. It seems to be asking for danger and frustration.
Weanlings, yearlings and coming 2 year olds at my farm live out. They get lessons about space 3 times a day when they are fed. They get caught for the farrier. One or two weekends a month we’ll catch them, lead them a bit, give them some pleasant grooming (and if necessary, quick reprimands of the severity comparable to the infraction). For a month or so during the winter, we’ll have a local natural horsemanship guy who doesn’t have an indoor and is always looking for something to do when its cold come to the farm 2-3 days per week to do some ground work, yielding to pressure, getting used to blankets, tack, etc, because he is really good at it. Then back to the minimalist routine. Time passes… and when they are 3 they are such a joy, even the formerly bratty ones. I only breed mares and stallions that are of good character, so that does influence the experience with their kids.
I’m really sorry to hear you were hurt, OP.
[QUOTE=amastrike;5932820]
Should I just carry a weapon at all times and use it generously? It doesn’t help that her mother never disciplined her. Do I just need to put the fear of God into her?[/QUOTE]
I thought NancyM put it very nicely.
This is simply a behaviour - something she would do with any other horse. Your job is to teach her YOUR expectations.
Ime you get further not with the reprimand (which may or may not be necessary or beneficial, depending on a variety of factors), but with clear, consistent boundaries and earning the horse’s respect (in a proactive sense) via exercises on the ground that, while setting the horse up for success, allow you an opportunity to earn that respect and establish those boundaries. Turning them out and allowing the herd to establish those boundaries and teach them how to spell r-e-s-p-e-c-t also helps :winkgrin:
Punishing a horse as you’re suggesting might work, but it might also cause the horse to escalate in retaliation (at worst) - which is a very real fear - or it might cause the horse to respond without negative behaviour (at best), but more because it has to as opposed to because it wants to (and the latter is what will get you the positive behaviour more consistently, for longer, and with enthusiasm toward you - it’s what will eventually solve the root issue for good). What I would do instead, if you feel a reprimand is in order at that specific time, is to very assertively ask her to move her feet when she reacts that ‘loudly’ (ie, by kicking or what). Her nailing me would be my cue to be instantly moving her feet around, which is likely going to include the end of my rope running into her (because I’m asking for a FAST, respectful response). I can do this while keeping out of reach where she might kick me. In the mean time, I wouldn’t be providing her opportunities to kick me (which means being on high alert and not placing yourself in situations where she might kick) and would be working proactively to earn her respect.
My recommendation would be to enlist the help of a pro, just in the form of lessons. A pro can come in and observe what mistakes you might be making, and how to correct them. They can also show you new approaches and new exercises. Lots of people do it, don’t be afraid to ask We can often work around a lot of weird schedules! At the very least, maybe have a pro work with her for 30 days then give you a report and a few lessons.
Yes, allowing her into your space uninvited (uninvited being the key here) is one of those little things that makes her think she is alpha. So is any time she succeeds in moving YOUR feet (as opposed to YOU moving HER feet). She can come into your space, but it had better be with head down, nose out, softly, quietly, ASKING to come in. It should look tentative. Not, “oh, sorry, I didn’t see you stop there in front of me.” Or sauntering in to your space demanding a treat. It shouldn’t look confident or assertive when she comes in. Any time she saunters in or acts like she expects to come in to your space, or she forces you to move your feet, she should be very assertively backed right back out. Immediately and fast - as in, she runs into your rope or whip when she’s that close, as you’re marching into HER space, asking her to BACK OFF. She only comes in when she asks and when she is respectful. I’m sure she’s great with being touched all over, with the tarp, with the dewormer - she sounds like she’s the type of personality that is very confident and laid back. Desensitization and trust are not the issues… respect is. Being her friend is important, but it needs to be balanced with a very healthy level of respect.
Naturalequus I think you and I work on the same theories. It really upsets me to read all these responses encouraging humans to attack young horses to teach them manners. It can backfire so easily. You can’t beat or discipline respect or “manners” into young horses. More likely, this will result in simmering anger, lack of understanding of what is wanted, sulkiness, and not wanting to participate with the human and what the human wants. Then people wonder why as adults these horses are difficult to train, resistant to training. If your horse does not rear at you, bite you, kick you, why IS that? Because he is afraid of your retaliation afterwards? Or would he just never even think of doing something like that to a being that he feels is his mentor and the being he wants to be with as much as possible, craves your touch craves your attention, and he automatically watches himself, his manners that he ALREADY KNOWS in his interactions with you? My horses all come to me, looking for my touch, my greeting. They want to be with me, and they can not be with me if they behave incorrectly (which nobody does).
It is exceedingly rare that I ever hit a youngster. They just don’t do much that requries it from me. If it has got that far, the human is already the loser IMO. I will stike out if it is absolutely necessary, but man, it is just so rare an occurance in my bunch. And I’ve been raising foals for 30 years +. I used to hit/discipline more than I do now. And my horses are much better behaved/mannered than they used to be. I always feel that the most important thing that a human can do with a young horse is to create an attitude in that horse where his time spent with the human is his favourate part of the day, something that he looks forward to. If you earn the respect, it is freely given. If you don’t earn it, it’s because you don’t deserve it in the horse’s eyes. This is not the horse’s fault, it is yours.
If you want to see the result of humans “teaching manners” to horses, spend some time with an equine orphan, orphaned from birth. Even with the best intentions and the best techniques from the most experienced horsemen, most are at least very “odd” horses. Not normal. Many are very strange, even dangerous.
Ditto x a million. Been there done that myself, watch it over and over again with borders at my barn.
[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5932849]
Yup.[/QUOTE]
Could be a stick, could be your voice, could be moving into them and running them backwards/sideways/whatever a few steps. IME the strategy depends on the horse and the offense.
Whatever “weapon” you use, you need to use it use it fairly immediately. You only have a few seconds so their pea brains associate your wrath with whatever they’ve done. After that it’s pretty much useless.
To the OP-a variety of advice coming out on the thread-hopefully you can find something that works for you and your horse.
[QUOTE=NancyM;5938385]
Naturalequus I think you and I work on the same theories.[/QUOTE]
It might not be wholly popular, but I agree with you in full, NancyM. I won’t say I never hit, I do, but it is extremely rare (as I’m sure it is for many people, but I say this as someone who regularly works with problem horses - somehow the ‘problem ones’ always find their way to me ;)). I find the best - and SAFEST - way really is to earn their respect and create that partnership where they just love working with you. You need to look at these behaviours as a black-and-white response from an animal, as opposed to it being mannerly or not, from a human perspective. Then you address the root issue that caused that response. I’ve seen a lot of ‘smacks gone bad’ and I know of a number of horses who will honestly LOOK to pick a fight (I am working with one now and have one of my own who used to be that way) - when you continue the ‘game’ with a reprimand, that becomes their cue to escalate. They’re 1,000lbs. They WILL win. It’s just too chancy for me to go that route anymore, and I can use a different approach now that works MORE effectively than the well-timed smack. That’s not to say the odd well-timed smack is not doled out… but it’s not the primary recourse concerning that behaviour. That’s just my $0.02, and my horses are very well behaved.
[QUOTE=NancyM;5938385]
You can’t beat or discipline respect or “manners” into young horses. More likely, this will result in simmering anger, lack of understanding of what is wanted, sulkiness, and not wanting to participate with the human and what the human wants. Then people wonder why as adults these horses are difficult to train, resistant to training. [/QUOTE]
I know all the lovey-dovey, soft gentle types truly want to believe this, but it’s simply not the case. None of my horses are sulky or balky and i am a rank amateur who has started all of them and they’re ridiculously easy and willing to handle, ride and train. They come running to the gate when I call them and are INSANELY affectionate and happy. They’re also 100% safe and sensible and respectful of people. I’m sure most posters on this thread can say the same about their horses.
Mine do too, as well as total strangers - they LOVE people. Despite some smacks and growls here and there when they were babies and were being naughty.
There is a big difference between being a true, fair “alpha” and being a bully. NOBODY on this thread has suggested the OP be a bully. Nobody is suggesting she should “beat” her filly (beating implies crazed, repeated blows delivered by someone who has lost control of their temper). A fair alpha mare will posture and bite or kick if she needs to, but no more than that, and only for good reason. The OP needs to act like a good alpha mare - rationalizing/modifying her behaviour and reactions according to HUMAN idealologies/theories will not make sense to her filly.
ASBJumper, while you seem knowledgeable and have a system that works for you, I think what NancyM and naturalequus are trying to say is that the general concept of beating or being extremely harsh with youngsters is not be applied as a hard fast rule to every situation.
Hence, punishment or discipline must be adapted to the offense. Biting, kicking or striking should deserve a “I might kill you if you try doing this again”, while stepping into your personal space simply deserves a “Please, get out of my space thankyouverymuch”.
We all say mares are though on their foals, but their disicpline is always adapted to the “offense”.
No offense, but nonsense!
First of all, no one is suggesting the OP BEAT the foal. Watch horses in a herd: if a warning doesn’t do it, physical “attack” in the shape of a kick or bite happens immediately. Horses are FAR more physical and brutal than most humans. And, no, the punishment does not fit the crime.
I’ve watched plenty of horses go for blood simply because another horse didn’t move as soon as they asked – there was no “please move out of my space” request.
I have NEVER hit a horse as hard as another horse will kick it, nor have I ever taken a chunk out of it’s hide, as another horse will.
The idea of getting a horse to “move it’s feet” is fine, but to do that you need to have a halter & lead on it or be working in a round pen. This doesn’t work if the foal is at liberty in a pasture or in a stall.
Although I DO start my foals off by teaching them to “follow the feel” and respect my space, I have absolutely zero problems whacking them on the chest or butt should the need arrive. I do not “beat” them.
And I’ve been raising foals for 14 yrs. and over and over again I’ve been told by my buyers how sweet and kind my foals are. And guess what? They LOVE people!
As for orphans, my foundation WB mare was orphaned at 3 weeks. She was spoiled rotten till age 4, when I got her for $2500 because everyone was deathly afraid of her (she was 17.1 and very alpha).
When I bought her, she had NEVER been with another horse. Penned next to them, yes, but NEVER with them.
When we came home, I turned her out in the herd, and immediately, my 14.2hh Arab mare (alpha) did something I have never seen her do before or sense – she came after that mare like a rabid dog, got her in a corner, double-barreled her and then chased her around the pasture till the poor new mare was totally humbled.
It took me about a month to make that mare safe and easy to deal with…and, while she DID get smacked once or twice, she certainly was never abused.
The OP’s safety is the most important thing, and afew whacks with a crop isn’t going to kill that filly.
I agree she should have a pro work with her, but she’s already said none are available.
She can learn how to do ground work with the filly and should do it routinely, but if she is new to handling a rope, using it will not be very effective, because she won’t hit her target – use the tools that work for you.
One more time, I don’t think anyone is advocating BEATING the filly. But the occasional smack if she gets sassy would do this filly a world of good.
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