My high level jumper is scared of jumps

[pinkpikeurs]

Please be kind, this is a really upsetting topic for me.

So some background. I have owned this horse for a couple of months. I was looking for an experienced jumper to give me confidence but had ability to take me into the 1m at least. I also wanted to do dressage and take the horse as far as I could in dressage, before getting a higher level dressage horse in a few years. If the horse took to XC or had XC experience, I might do low level eventing, but I was more focused on dressage and jump confidence. The horses also needed to be “fancy” enough to be competitive at recognized shows so I wasn’t looking for an old lesson horse either. The horse I bought is in his early teens, he is an imported warmblood with show experience in germany and extensive fei and usef record with $$ wins in the 1.10-1.45. Last owner was doing 1.10-1.20, even a month before I bought him. Tons of videos all over youtube with some of his different riders. Last owner has videos with students jumping him too, from xrails to 4ft grids. I would be mostly jumping him lower, and casually showing, but wanted a horse with ability also. He was being sold as a schoolmaster/teacher. Also being trained for most of his life in Germany, he has a very good dressage foundation, although never competed in dressage that I can see on his record. He is VERY lovely on the flat. He was basically exactly what I was looking for. I did a PPE and I xrayed the crap out of his legs, very sound especially for his career. I did not xray his back though.

So we get him home, we let him settle in and we do mostly flat for a few weeks, then we start jumping him. My trainer first jumped him and we just did 2ft-2’6 to test him out. He went over everything, jumped beautifully, but my trainer noted he felt tense. I didn’t really notice it when I tried him, but I guess they rode him over the same stuff 100 times before I tried him. So we decided to start at basics to let him chill out, poles, and low jumps, just doing the same easy thing until it became boring and he stopped caring. This horse will not touch a pole, I can put a treat on a pole and he wont touch it. We are pretty sure he has been poled at some point because he acts like its going to jump up at him. He also really looks at the jumps, to the point you can be flatting in a ring with jumps set up and he will shy away from them if you get too close. So a few weeks go by and we work on him being less tense and more rideable between jumps. There was a plank x, one side was painted differently than the other. He jumped it one direction fine, then stopped the other direction. Eventually got him over it. Then jumped him another day in a practice ride and he was perfect. At this point i’ve been jumping in lessons and on my own for 3 months, and his work load was much easier than he’s probably ever had. No stops, no wiggles, just tenses up.Then the next time I jumped him, he ran out over a TINY step over sized x with no filler that he has been over many times, so pointed him at it again he stops dead, got him over it though with a ton of coaching, the horse was literally shaking and pooping all over the place. Trainer was around so it turned into an impromptu lesson and i took him over some other jumps and he was fine but tense and a bit wiggly on approach so i was riding with more intention. Then we took him over a tiny 18inch vertical that we had been over it but the jump was in a different place, I felt him wiggle so I was correcting then he starts anxiously speeding up before stopping hard and throwing me off. Yes I feel off this high level horse over an 18 inch vertical. My trainer hops on and he even stopped with her, she pushed him and he reared, then eventually leaped over it. Again literally crapping diarrhea all over and shaking.

We watched the videos of his previous riders. They do ride somewhat aggressively and with harsh spurs. Our theory is that people have just been boxing him in with the bit and spurs to make him go, and when he would refuse he got the crap beat out him, because when I fell off, he literally was scared of me as if I was going to beat him. So we think they just scared him so much he would go over stuff, and then he came to our calmer farm and after a few weeks learned we’re not that harsh. Basically my trainer said, if I really wanted to jump him I could probably spur up and really ride aggressively and make him go and continue to be terrified, but its not going to really do him any favors, and I agree. Trainer said he’d make a great dressage horse but since i bought him to also jump, she said she would probably sell him if she was me because of how much he cost and hes “not what you bought him for”. I do have dressage goals that are reachable with this horse and I would feel incredibly bad to sell him back to his owner or even to someone else, as a jumper, knowing how stressed out this horse is, its not fair to the horse, imo. So as of now, I am not jumping him and am thinking to give him at least a year to see how he does with dressage to decide if I should keep him as a dressage horse. I have taken him out to dressage clinics and he was super off farm as well. He does have a lot of great qualities overall. Its really a shame as he is a fantastic jumper, and still very physically capable, he has amazing jump form and scope.

TL’DR: Is he actually mentally scared of the jumps? Or does he maybe have kissing spine or ulcers (he is girthy, hates blankets, mounting) that are making him scared because he’s in pain? Has anyone had a horse like this? Is there anything I can do to retrain him or is he only going to jump from someone basically beating him over it? Even if I never get to the point of actually jumping him again I’d like him to not shy away from jumps that are in the ring (or poop when he walks in an arena and sees jumps even though we aren’t jumping them) and also he will eventually need to be ok with ground poles. So I am thinking maybe some in hand obstacle courses and bomb proofing to start? should I just bite the bullet and sell him?
Or if you turned a jumper into a dressage horse, how did it work out?

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@pinkpikeurs

Or does he maybe have kissing spine or ulcers (he is girthy, hates blankets, mounting) that are making him scared because he’s in pain?

It seems to me that the logical first step is a thorough vet work up to see if he does indeed have kissing spine or ulcers or some other medical issue. If you fear there might be a medical problem, why not find out for sure?

[OverandOnward]

You need a complete vet work-up. IMO it is pointless to worry and find other careers for him until you do a thorough vet diagnostic. Your trainer doesn’t sound useful on that point as trainer is trying to sell the horse without first doing diagnostics and maybe rehab (for a commission for her I’m sure). Good luck with him!

[horsegurl]

Oh jeeez. I feel for you. I have had similar challenges. If you really like the horse and you want to give him a chance, I agree a total Veterinary work up would be a good investment. You might be onto something with the kissing spine. You might be onto something just thinking there’s some sort of pain, it could take some Chiropractic work that could free him up. My spooky one always calms down when I have her gut balance correct. So, doing a couple weeks or more of ulcergard is a good way to do some self-diagnosis without breaking the bank completely. My mare was jumping around the show jumps just fine. Then we had a bit of a setback, I know exactly what it was, but she got really spooky and high anxiety about all the filled jumps (we have show arenas at home). She would only jump the plain rails-no brush, no gates, no flowers. Luckily I have a very open-minded trainer who listened to my ideas. I gave my horse some perfect prep at home, and I asked the trainer to come in quiet, and add down the lines a couple times. She did it, it gave my horse a chance to process jumps coming at her, and now we are ajumping around the filled jumps like it was nothing. Well winter makes it a little spicy! We didn’t untrain her from doing the lines or coming forward. We just gave her brain a chance to process things. It was only one day on perfect prep, it wasn’t a habitual thing. She needed just a little help.So there are my thoughts for you wishing you the very best with your horse!

[GraceLikeRain]

@pinkpikeurs

Is he actually mentally scared of the jumps? Or does he maybe have kissing spine or ulcers (he is girthy, hates blankets, mounting) that are making him scared because he’s in pain

I’d do a vet work up and scope for ulcers. Next, I’d do some quality groundwork (like Warwick Schiller stuff) to learn how to talk to him on the ground. Next, i’d do very low key work on the line over fence. Evaluate how he is without a rider or saddle. If he’s good then I’d put the saddle back on after a few sessions and repeat. Still good, I’d have a really good lunger take him over some low fences while you sit like an elegant bag of flour and hold a grab strap.

Break the problem down into the smallest pieces possible and when you hit a red flag do not pass go until you address it. Hopefully, you’re dealing with a stressed ulcery horse or a poor saddle fit and he just needs some time and lifestyle changes.

[pinkpikeurs]

The stress pooping makes me think ulcers could be a possibility as well. Generally his poop is hard unless he is stress pooping and sometimes it just “squirts” but no poop (sorry for the vulgar lol)

Of course none of the health issues could be contributing to the jumping issue but I suspect something is off with him. Vet is coming next week. I am planning to start trailering out to a second trainer soon as well. I don’t want to jump him yet because I think he needs to not do it for awhile either way. But I need second opinions on the horse. I also would not be selling through the trainer so she wouldn’t be getting a commission if I sold him, which she knows. She loved him at first but she is just very quick to write off issues. She isn’t into dealing with problematic horses or projects. Which is also why I am going to talk to other professionals.

[ladyj79]

When you buy a horse to give you confidence it is a different thing than just a horse who has been successfully doing what you want to do eventually, it has to also be doing that with a less experienced rider.

That may not be this horse.

I lived with a number of dealers in Europe and people–often American amateurs–would buy a nice show jumper. Who had mainly been ridden by confident and successful professionals. Then they get it home and a couple months down the road the horse is no longer the horse it was when they saw and tried it. And they inevitably think it’s the horse/seller. But it isn’t.

Consider exploring a more confident trainer who has recent relevant experience riding Euro show jumpers to determine whether this is a horse who will tolerate being a schoolmaster for a relatively inexperienced rider with goals of eventually jumping 1m

[IPEsq]

Given the stress level and the type of jumps he freaked out over at the most severe, I would pursue a pain thing starting with ulcers.

My last horse did this as a young horse shortly after I got him. But not so extreme because I was riding him like a 4yo not as if he should be a schoolmaster. I jumped him out in a field to try him. One lesson could not get him to go over a small white plank with it even just laying on the ground. His anxiety had been building. He also started to think about balking and had the nervous poops.

He did have ulcers. In the course of working up some other escalating behavior (I stopped jumping him), we found some neck arthritis.

Got him back going some months later. Would jump baby things, trot in and canter out. Making it all boring. Poles. Same approach you have tried. And then one day I set that plank at 2’6 and he didn’t bat an eyelash at it.

So, I would rule out pain first. But I think some things you mention will not 100% go away. I had an import that had been completely fried on the water jumps. That was unfortunate as he was meant to be my USET talent search horse. If we pushed him to feeling stressed, he would start spooking going past jumps. And heaven forbid trainer was standing by the jump. He must have been chased over some from the ground. For him, we knew he had one trigger and although we tried feeding him out of the Liverpool and all of that, nothing helped. He’d been totally fried. So actually the best thing was to ignore it. And then hope he didn’t notice the Liverpool out on course, which was likely if it was under an oxer, less likely to succeed if under a vertical. But if pressed, he would get anxious about going over anything, even something plain in the warmup.

TL;DR - do a good vet workup. Scope for ulcers. Consider neck and back. Consider if something like EPM or Lyme might explain the touchiness too. Continue with dressage as appropriate depending on vet findings. Start all the way over with jumping some time later, probably with your trainer in case you get nervous. Then reassess.

[endlessclimb]

This exact scenario happened to someone I know. It ended up being saddle fit (she had a custom Antares, but it did not fit him). By the time they figured it out, the horse was permanently damaged mentally.

I’d not do a single lick of jumping until I worked the physical and saddle fit stuff through completely. Do not mess around with giving this horse a bad taste in his mouth for jumping.

[lenapesadie]

@pinkpikeurs

him. He also really looks at the jumps, to the point you can be flatting in a ring with jumps set up and he will shy away from them if you get too close.

Horse is not ready to jump over fences until riding past the fences doesn’t bother him.

What happens if you hand walk horse over a pole and ask him to stop with the pole under his belly?

I agree with a vet work up and also with a previous poster’s recommendation for Warwick Schiller.

[ChocoMare]

I’d definitely make part of that vet workup, blood work for PSSM/EPSM and its variants. The girthiness, etc speaks volumes!

[findeight]

Dont focus on ulcers, which can be treated and should be. Focus on WHY he is so stressed at teeny, tiny jumps or pols on the ground. Something is wrong here.

Did you do a PPE with x rays and a blood panel?

[Posting_Trot]

You’ve gotten some great responses here, particularly about doing a complete vet work-up. I’d also add that you should ask the vet to check the horse’s eyes. The fact that the horse reacted very differently to the same jump, which was painted a different color on each side, depending on which direction the horse came at it, makes me think about the horse’s vision.

But I’d also echo that the horse does seem to have a fear reaction when he refuses, and I think your (the OP’s) analysis is probably right–that the horse was poled, possibly chased over jumps, ridden harshly, and physically punished for not doing what was asked. That’s going to be a longer term project to untrain. But you also can’t sell the horse (ethically) without disclosing the issue.

Good luck.

[trubandloki]

Add me to the list of people who think you need to start with a complete vet exam. This really does sound physical.
I wish you success in figuring this out and moving forward with a happy horse.
Sometimes it can be hard once they have stepped off the edge and are scared.
Jingles!

I agree about vision being something important to check here but I am not sure I get this part of your post Posting Trot.

@Posting_Trot

The fact that the horse reacted very differently to the same jump, which was painted a different color on each side, depending on which direction the horse came at it, makes me think about the horse’s vision.

I thought this was normal horse. That thing is new and different coming from the other direction is totally a horse thing.

[Posting_Trot]

I was thinking about issues of shade and light–if one side was darker, or if the sun glared brightly off of one side.

I know the whole “it’s a different thing in each direction” idea, but I was wondering what about the difference would make one side scary and another not to a horse that has a background that would make you think he’d seen just about everything.

Small point. Bigger point was just to have the horse’s vision checked.

Anecdote: Friend of BO of mine years ago had imported a fancy, accomplished (but young) horse from Europe to be her eventer. The rider had been riding Prelim but her old horse was maxxed out, and this new horse had gone equivalent of Prelim a few times and supposedly had the scope for more. Rider was working with accomplished trainer, well-known at the time. A few months after being imported, and just as the rider was beginning to feel comfortable on the horse and was stepping up the work, the horse began to stop. Over the next 6 months plus, trainer and rider did many things trying to work through this. Eventually, frustration set in as horse began stopping at small jumps in its familiar setting. Trainer, who had a bit of a reputation for harsh tactics, several times (apparently–I never personally witnessed) hopped on and essentially spurred and whipped horse over jumps and insisted rider do the same.

Rider was disturbed at the level of aggressiveness the horse seemed to require, and she sent the horse to the barn that my BO owned to have her try to work through some of the issues more gradually, in a different setting.

The horse definitely calmed down–it had become a bit of a nervous wreck because of the techniques being employed. But, while it would usually jump over straight-forward jumps in the ring, it was unpredictable and refused regularly anything (even low) that was new.

Ultimately, horse turned out to have moonblindness (uveitis). The owner had insured the horse and chose to euthanise her.

[findeight]

Agree. And this horse was presented and sold to you as an experienced and safe Jumper on 1m+ courses and its having issues with 18” kiddie “ fences”.

Kicking the can down the road by selling horse on without solving the issues is questionable action by OPs trainer but thats probably how OP ended up with this poor horse who sounds like he’s been been ill used and over ridden (used in a lesson program, maybe? Too intensive a sales “prep”). But thats a topic for another thread. As is whether the horse is suitable for OPs needs and current ability level. Or trainers ability to coach OP and/or train horse…if they even care.

OP needs to think carefully here. And help that poor horse with a vet exam and some time off,

[outside_leg]

While I agree a vet workup is useful, presumably when you did the PPE you looked at the back. So if there are recent images of his spine, I wouldn’t think kissing spine.

I agree ulcers sound possible, and if he’s ensured, scoping and treating are relatively low-cost. Be prepared that pretty much every horse that gets scoped is found to have ulcers, and it may or may not make a difference in his attitude.

One thing I didn’t appreciate until I had a horse like this, is that careful jumpers tend to be nervous jumpers. The sort that doesn’t want to touch a rail or get a jump down can also be prone to anxiety and nervousness around jumping in general. Some of them require a really precise ride, especially if they’re used to being ridden that way. You mention that previous riders had an aggressive seat and spurs, so he may be used to being driven to the base, placed at the right takeoff spot, and supported with a lot of seat. Changing that could be shaking his confidence.

Have the vet out for sure. Treat what they find. But if he doesn’t have a significant physical issue, then you may want to see if a more experienced jumper pro can hop on and see how he feels. If they can get him around, then the answer might be that he is simply not a match for you, that he is too anxious and careful.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@pinkpikeurs

Of course none of the health issues could be contributing to the jumping issue

Sure they could. Underlying pain associated with jumping could very much account for the issues.

[endlessclimb]

This, also. There’s a reason most Prix horses look so tight over the fences.

[trubandloki]

@outside_leg

While I agree a vet workup is useful, presumably when you did the PPE you looked at the back. So if there are recent images of his spine, I wouldn’t think kissing spine.

From the original post. The OP did not xray the back.

@pinkpikeurs

I did a PPE and I xrayed the crap out of his legs, very sound especially for his career. I did not xray his back though.