My high level jumper is scared of jumps

[findeight]

And there may well be mental issues like poling, too many rides by too many riders of too many talent levels can create a sour horse looking for excuses to avoid being forced to jump?

If OP is correct in assuming its not physical? And it was represented as going well for previous riders in previous situations? Then the focus shifts to the current barn rider and trainer. What were they doing there that management and rider are not doing here?

There very well could be a suitability issue between OPs ability and riding style and what this horse needs to perform the intended job. Could be a mismatch.

[outside_leg]

@trubandloki

From the original post. The OP did not xray the back.

My mistake! I missed that part. I’ve always done back x-rays with a PPE, so I assumed they were done. Guess that proves what they say about when you assume things!

I’ll revise and say x-ray the back too, but if it’s fine, my previous remarks stand.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP
Besides getting a vet workup for ulcers, you may want to invest some time and patience.

This poor creature is a saint to keep on trying to do what is being demanded of him. He is telling you every way he knows how that he is in pain and the response is that he gets physically punished.

I know you bought this horse to ride, but can you just turn him out for a few weeks to just graze and be a horse and not a riding, jumping machine?

I would research and consult with an equine nutritionist and feed your horse a diet appropriate for ulcers , stomach and hind gut. It wont hurt him.

I’m not saying not to interact with your horse. Bring him in and groom him, pick his feet, etc.

Let him get to know you as his care taker and not just a rider who insists on pushing him beyond what he can endure.

I dont blame you for wanting to ride and pursue your goals; that’s why you bought this specific horse .

I don’t care for your trainer.
A real horse person would stop assuming that the horse is being “difficult” and must be punished until the horse learns its lesson.

A real horse person finds the reason and if down time is required then the horse gets downtime.

Aside from ulcers which I believe is a real possibility given this horses previous history, you may want to get radiographs of his hooves.

Pain or discomfort in the hooves can definitely create an unwillingness to jump.

I hope my post doesnt come across as harsh.

You care about your horse otherwise you wouldnt have asked

Be the advocate for your horse. If you dont stand up for him, no one else will.

If you decide he’s not the horse for you, then try to find him a non-jumping home.

Good luck to you and your horse. I hope you can find a solution soon .

[173north]

I agree with full vet workup, saddle fit check, and absolutely no jumping for now. If the vet and saddle check come back clear, getting a very good pro to sit on him could be worthwhile. It does sound like he’s had some seriously bad experiences in the past and a combo of that, some pain issues, and a new environment may have just blown his mind. Poor guy.

Is the seller reputable? This could go either way, but it may be worth reaching out to them to say “Hi, Dobbin is quite anxious under saddle and we were wondering if you’d experienced that with him? We’re getting the saddle fitter/chiro out and treating for ulcers but just wanted to touch base!”

If they are shady, you will probably get zero information. Or, you might get half-assed information that you can read between the lines of. If they are legit, they should be happy to help you with info about his care program, his saddle, his turnout schedule, any prep they did, etc. Maybe he was being ridden by a pro 4 days a week and the amateurs only 2 days a week, for example.

Edited to add… did you do a blood draw when you tried him/did the PPE? He might have gotten a little “help” for your trial or those videos with students.

[Tha_Ridge]

@173north

Did you do a blood draw when you tried him/did the PPE? He might have gotten a little “help” for your trial or those videos with students.

This. I’m also wondering if someone else may have crashed him on another trial causing this “regression.” Sounds like a crummy situation all around.

[initiate1987]

We had a horse at my college barn that sounds a lot like this. He was a junior hunter before he came. He started out fine with the upper level riders, but when less confident riders got on, he started stopping and getting nervous (hence why he was donated). It got so bad that he could barely jump at all.

The barn manager took him out of the program and worked with him slowly for the second half of the spring semester and over the summer just doing no-big-deal stuff with him. If he stopped, eh, no big deal. If he went over, lots of praise. She did a lot of work making him think jumping was not something to be scared of. When we came back the following fall, he was jumping around great and only ridden by the open riders. Now, he’s absolutely awesome.

I can’t remember if there was anything medically wrong with him. I know the vet came out, but if I recall correctly, it was mostly psychological. Not saying that’s what it is with your horse. I agree with everyone else saying to do a full workup and especially check the eyes. But he also just might need someone, be it you or a more experienced rider/trainer, to teach him that jumping is no big deal. I hope you get to the bottom of the problem and end up with a horse with renewed confidence!

[pinkpikeurs]

Thats a good idea to try, he does kinda “scoot” over the poles to get away from them. After riding if there are jumps in the ring, I will get off and walk over and stand near them with a treat. He will slowly and cautiously approach me and the jump. He doesn’t even like to stand next to a standard even if nothing is set up.

[pinkpikeurs]

I think that was the case with his first rider who imported him. She did really well with him for the first year then it went down hill and she sold him. She was your typical rich Wellington show jumper who goes through horses like water. Then his next rider was a professional. Then he was sold to the one I bought him from who was an “ammy” who casually does the circuit and she has 6 other horses, so he wasn’t her only show horse. I say that in quotes because I think she hides her professional activities under her parent’s name to keep her ammy status. But she was using him in lessons with intermediate kids/teens, over fences. There were videos on the farm page of him in lessons for over a year. So it wasn’t like I just bought him off the circuit and expected him to be a schoolmaster. He had already come down a bit about 2 years ago. We think she probably schooled him over the jumps herself many times first before other people got on him. Also its not my first Euro jumper, I lived in Italy in my 20s and leased a GP horse who actually went higher than this one. But its also true I was younger and more aggressive and was jumping well over a meter at that time. Then I took an 8 year break from riding, and I was riding again for 2 years before deciding to buy a horse. I had been helping a trainer restart ottbs, which is why I wanted something that was not green because they were just not really helping me get to where i wanted to be.

[pinkpikeurs]

His eyes were checked in the PPE, but I don’t know how detailed that is.

And yeah, that is why we are thinking if I do resell him, we should do it as a dressage horse. Also because I don’t think its fair to the horse to sell him to someone who is going to abuse him the way he has been. He seems to like and excel at dressage.

[pinkpikeurs]

Oh yeah, def a horse thing to spook at something from a different direction. Just the way their brain is wired.

[pinkpikeurs]

We did extensive xrays of his hooves, legs, knees, hocks. I would have done his back but I didnt know much about KS until i started researching this horses issues… so it wasn’t something I thought about at the time.

I am fine with being the non-jumping home. I do have dressage goals which 2 dressage trainers think this horse can achieve. I would rather sell him as a dressage horse also, I think he would be happier and I can’t in good faith sell him into a situation where he’d be miserable again. I also had a dressage trainer get on him and she schooled him 3rd level no problem in just that ride, and said he seemed willing. So provided no major physical issues (vet is coming next week) I am going to see how he does in dressage and how far he will go and either keep him, or sell him as a dressage horse if we can get some recognized shows on his record. I mean, my long term plan was to have a dedicated dressage horse, and a jumper/eventer. But maybe I am just getting the dressage horse sooner than I thought? And maybe its a good thing, because a few years of straight dressage would improve my riding a lot before going back to jumping.

So I am fine with not jumping him, but I was mostly asking if anyone has dealt with his before, and if its worth working with him or just retire him from jumping completely. I think I am making my trainer sound worse than she is lol. I think her thinking is just that I paid a lot of money for this horse and he isn’t doing what I bought him for and is too expensive to be a project. But she did love him initially, and she still thinks he’d be a good dressage horse. Also she said even though he was expensive I probably can’t get the same quality in a dressage horse for the same amount of money because the dressage horse market is even more insane price wise. Also, this is the trainer at the boarding barn, I do consult with other people as well and trailer out. She is an eventing and dressage trainer who works with mostly OTTBs, I am going to try another trainer to trailer out to who is straight dressage. Still like and am planning on working with my home trainer, just want to have a dedicated dressage trainer if we go that route.

[lenapesadie]

That’s great you’re counter conditioning his anxiety with treats. That’s a great little side project to work on while you explore physical issues

[pinkpikeurs]

he is very food motivated. I mean even if I never jump him again, he is going to have to go over ground poles, and work around jumps in the arena since this is a boarding barn. Right now the jumps in one of the arenas are down and piled in the middle, and he still didnt want to get close to it. I want to set up an obstacle course with poles, noodles, standards, filler that he has to go near or touch and do it in hand with treats or grain. He expects and reacts badly to negative reinforcement, so I think positive is the only way to really work with him without triggering a panic response and being counter productive. I think he needs to do things with patience and positive reinforcement, ignoring it when he doesn’t want to do it and just keep encouraging and then rewarding when he has done it. As soon as its negative it just goes backwards and he goes into panic mode. I think he has definitely been beat from the ground to go over stuff.

Just wanted to mention also this horse is not a complete mess. Its just the jumping/seeing jumps thing, and being girthy. He has a lot of really good qualities. Great on the flat and was properly started, big fancy mover, very easy to do lateral work with, sensitive to aids, has a lot of buttons, naturally uphill and very easy to go over his back, naturally seeks the contact. very well behaved in the field and in stall, stands in the crossties forever, respectful on the ground, he stands like a statue for farrier, vet, clipping, bathing, grooming. He self loads and trailers well, total pro off property too. He’s a fast learner and easy to train. He’s also cute, flashy, and has super confirmation. So he’s not an anxious mess all the time. Definitely that horse in that barn who everyone wants to give attention to. He is quite perfect minus the jump issue and wanting to go ham on the cross ties with the saddle/girth. But even the tacking up has gotten better, when i first got him he would have a loose poop getting tacked up too, doesn’t do that anymore. Like I said I think a lot of his issues are “anticipating” something, be it pain or something scary. Sometimes I even tack him up and don’t ride him or tack him up and take him to hand graze so he stops associating the tack with something bad. Even if there is nothing physically wrong with him, I think just not jumping is going to further chill him out.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

That is a good start OP.
I third the motion about watching Warwick Schiller videos. Especially his later work. He has some newer methods now.

I do appreciate that the trainer who found the horse for you is being up front about her feelings . She does not want to retrain or take on a project. Fair enough.

I just question the ability of a trainer who doesnt seem to recognize a horse who is pain or uncomfortable to the point where it rears . Or maybe she does or just doesnt care.

I dont want that kind of trainer.

[SadieRidingHorses]

He sounds like a very lovely horse, and lucky to have found you.

[pinkpikeurs]

She didn’t find the horse. I learned not to buy or sell through trainers. I will pay them to try a horse for their opinion but not in an agent sense where they make a commission. Too many issues at stake there…

I think her standpoint is just, you bought him to give you jumping confidence and he’s not going to do that. She does have training board and said she could work with him but again, at some point I am going to have to get on him and is that going to help my confidence? I am more of an all around rider and I am not a jump fiend so the jumping is not a dealbreaker. My plan was just to get a jumper/event horse first, and get started working up the dressage levels and then eventually getting a dressage horse as well. But maybe it just happened the opposite way lol.

[paw]

I have a horse like this.

He was on the path to be a good Derby hunter, but then had a trainer change (long story) and got absolutely fried. As in not even going over a pole on the ground fried. Spooking at anythinng different in the ring fried. He’s 18hh and powerful, so this was not the best thing…

I took him out of that situation and brought him to someone who wasn’t so showing-focused. It’s taken 2 years, but now he’s happily walking and trotting over pretty much anything he’s put at. The spook is still there, but the panic is gone, and when he gets stressed, I can quickly get him back to a calm mind. The liverpool that used to have him stopping halfway across the ring is now just another thing in the way.

This all took a lot of time and patience. He had to learn that I wasn’t going to punish him for being afraid and that he could trust me not to put him in scary situations he didn’t understand. It does help that he’s basically a big puppy dog and doesn’t have a mean bone in his bidy - he really does want to please.

Sounds like your guy is similar, so I guess the question is whether you’re willing to take the time with him or not. I would not sell him as a jumping horse at this point, knowing what you do.

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes check for ulcers and pain… then take a deep breath and relax.

That is what you need him to do.

That will come when he has confidence in you as a rider. He will take a big breath and relax.

I cannot tell you how much vocal praise helps these horses. When he is doing something right, praise him and say Good Boy. Use it in your training.

Our boy was bought by an experienced horseman because he is a good looking horse, his 2 girls rode him with 2 whips and spurs. When they got another horse he went to a professional trainer and when he came home they just forgot about him and feeding him.

He went to my instructor but he was not happy there. He said it reminded him to much of racing. So he came here.

He had no idea what an outside rein was. He did not go forward. We did not canter other than around a big paddock for over a year.

He is such a different horse now. Of course I used my voice when lunging him, but I was then silent riding him. When I started saying good boy on his back we never looked back.

My instructor’s comment was that he now had the confidence to go forward.

At a lesson I entered the arena and forgot something. I handed him to my instructor and said let him tell you all the awful things I have done to him during the week and I turned and went back to the float.

When I returned I said what awful things did he say about me? He said he said the absolute opposite. He took absolutely no notice of my instructor. He turned and watched me leave the arena and he did not stop looking that way until I returned.

He needs confidence in you.

[IPEsq]

Given the tacking up behavior as well as ridden behavior, I would still pursue possible pain. Including your saddle fit.

Just to be sure. Or you can’t make real progress. Even after you remove whatever he was anticipating, when the reaction is this bad, it takes a long time to undo the anticipatory behavior. So be sure you aren’t inadvertently causing him reason to hang onto it because he’s got an untreated ulcer or a saddle fit issue or something else.

Ones with this kind of personality can be pretty particular and don’t really care what your saddle fitter says necessarily. They like what they like and maybe not much else. Perhaps having so many riders recently presumably in their own tack was not good for him. But you have to rule out some things like ulcers first.

[clanter]

we have one older mare that we got from a rescue who evidently was used as either a hunter or jumper as she makes it her mission to go out to the in place jump we have built to knock it down