My high level jumper is scared of jumps

[Moneypitt]

What a shame. Poor horse! Reads like pain related symptoms.

An early teenaged Warmblood with previous FEI/USEF history that is safe, sound, experienced, competitive at USEF 1:10-1:20M child/adult type jumpers, is going to be in the mid five figures price range in my area. That’s a pretty big investment only to find out the horse is not what it was advertised and sold to be. Same type horse around here, priced in the high four or low five figures would raise a red flag.

I have noticed; that when horses develop competition related performance problems; they tend to be sold out of their geographical areas, where the horse’s behavior is not necessarily known.

If I were the new owner, I would try to find out as much history as I could, from reliable sources, that have no financial interest but know of this horse. Such as other trainers or competitors that have shown at the same venues. Something doesn’t read quite right here.

Hope you figure this out!

[findeight]

@pinkpikeurs

confirmation. So he’s not an anxious mess all the time. Definitely that horse in that barn who everyone wants to give attention to. He is quite perfect minus the jump issue and wanting to go ham on the cross ties with the saddle/girth. But even the tacking up has gotten better, when i first

He sounds pretty fried jumping wise and those horses have lost any and all trust in people and what may lurk around the standards…like somebody with a pole or something that hurts on the top rail or repeatedly asked to go over bigger and wider fences then they can physically handle. They get taught to HATE and fear jumps because they suffer every time they are forced over them. Double that if they are packing an incompetent, intended or not abusive rider.

Once a horse gets scared and loses trust like that, it is very, very difficult to school it out and, unfortunately, it will sleep in the back of their minds and awaken unexpectedly often hurting somebody caught by surprise.

Unfortunately, have personally seen this several times in former GP level victims subjected to questionable training practicing and rough, if not downright abusive, riding who dropped to lesser levels when their brains fried. Despite many months to years of good handling and patient rehab, if they got anxious or scared, they could not cope. Period. They exploded. Typically around jumps but sometimes out of the blue, one I recall had been away from 4m jumping for 2 years and was routinely hacked out by a Pro trying to rehab it. He came back from a long hack one day and spooked at a wheelbarrow, flipped over. Put Pro in hospital. They sent him back to owners who retired horse from anything under saddle. Period. They had paid a small fortune fir him, vetted him to death, put 2 years non jump rehab into him but it was too little too late mentally. Thats what fried means. Happens in other disciplines too. Over face, over work, gimmick training, bad riding = scrambled brain,

Think jumps are out of the question for now. At least. IME horses that get fried usually have underlying health issues they were forced to work through or were drugged to mask symptoms while damage continued. Rearing is something that can hurt the horse as badly as the rider and the horse that resorts to it to avoid Jumping or any request doesn’t care if it kills itself to avoid it. Thats something to keep in mind,

One other thing, did you ultrasound or just x ray? Personally seen good horses suddenly start stopping, rear, spook for no apparent reason that never limped, blocked clean or no worse then intermittent 1/5 and had nothing of note on x rays. When finally sent to clinic for advanced ultra sound and imaging, rear suspensory damage was revealed…despite no visible signs or heat.

Not convinced this horse was not forced to work thru pain. Kind of the spice in the frying pan if you will.

[pinkpikeurs]

He was mid-fives. All of his previous owners, post import, have barns in sort of the same area, within an hour or 2 of each other. Of course they’d also go to Florida too. But its not like hes been passed around coast to coast. I’m thinking either, I don’t have the ability to ride him correctly. Or his past owners just simply didn’t care or recognize the anxiety issues and just spurred and whipped him through it.

[Moneypitt]

I get that there can be issues using horse agents.

However, there certainly can be important benefits having a trainer that knows your needs, guide you towards the right horse. Especially, when it’s your first horse that you have owned.

[LetRed]

From everything you have written I think the last conclusion you should draw is that you “don’t have the ability to ride him correctly”- it sounds like there were so many others before you who contributed to this poor horse’s mental state! I think the last thing you should do is blame yourself. We buy a horse, we trust the seller (mostly) and our trainer and still often end up with a horse that was not “as advertised.” I have experienced that (recently) myself. Good luck to you- it sounds like this horse was lucky to have found you even if you weren’t especially “lucky” too!

[ladyj79]

I think she actually said she doesn’t believe the problem is her, or at least that is my takeaway from most of the posts on the thread.

[LetRed]

ladyj79 I responded to her post in which she said: “But its not like hes been passed around coast to coast. I’m thinking either, I don’t have the ability to ride him correctly.”

[paw]

@pinkpikeurs

I’m thinking either, I don’t have the ability to ride him correctly. Or his past owners just simply didn’t care or recognize the anxiety issues and just spurred and whipped him through it.

I think you certainly have the ability to ride him correctly, and that his previous owners didn’t care about his anxiety. The question is really whether you want to put the time in to see if you can bring him back to work over fences or not. Whatever you decide will be ok.

[pinkpikeurs]

Oh I definitely believe I am part of the problem too. Being too timid, lacking experience, giving mixed signals potentially too. But I don’t think I caused the problem. I think the problem was already there and I am bringing it back out or not doing the right things to solve it.

[paw]

The only way to solve his base problem is tincture of time. But this is your hobby - it’s supposed to be fun (or at least not un-fun). If re-training him isn’t a challenge you feel like taking on at this point, that’s perfectly ok.

[lonewolf]

A lot have people have mentioned the physical side which it sounds like you’re investigating.

As for the behaviour, I’m thinking it couldn’t hurt to reach out to some of his previous owners or riders to learn a bit more of his history. Maybe they won’t tell you the truth (especially if it doesn’t reflect well on them), but maybe they’ll be able to tell you about some elements of their program that worked for them, or shed a bit of light on why he behaves this way.

It’s also an unfortunate possibility that the horse is just fried. Horses at FEI level are put under a lot of pressure to perform, and some riders and trainers will resort to whatever it takes to get them to jump clear, including through not-so-nice means. And many of those techniques are designed to make horses scared enough of the jumps to not want to touch a rail.

Some of these horses are also just not amateur rides. Just because he’s done a lot doesn’t make him an appropriate horse for a rider who lacks confidence.

He may get over it, but it will probably take a lot of time and patience, which is not what you signed up for when you went shopping for a schoolmaster. I get why your trainer is angry.

As for (eventual) retraining, have you tried longing him over a little jump, without a rider? His reaction should tell you something about whether he’s stressed by the obstacle itself, or the rider, which is a place to start. It’s also a way to let him figure out how to do it on his own without spurring or kicking. You may have to start smaller, at pole level.

[OverandOnward]

@lonewolf

Some of these horses are also just not amateur rides. Just because he’s done a lot doesn’t make him an appropriate horse for a rider who lacks confidence.

He may get over it, but it will probably take a lot of time and patience, which is not what you signed up for when you went shopping for a schoolmaster. I get why your trainer is angry.

As for (eventual) retraining, have you tried longing him over a little jump, without a rider? His reaction should tell you something about whether he’s stressed by the obstacle itself, or the rider, which is a place to start. It’s also a way to let him figure out how to do it on his own without spurring or kicking. You may have to start smaller, at pole level.

[BostonHJ]

I know of two horses at a similar price point that had bad jumping accidents between the time they were tried and the time they arrived, neither disclosed, that had very similar reactions to what your horse is doing. Both horses came from good programs and the new owners had no reason to not ask them to keep the horses in work. One horse flipped over a fence and the other also had a crash; I believe both were bad luck situations where no one was necessarily doing anything wrong. The incidents totally fried the horses because the new owners didn’t know what happened and therefore had expectations they were getting the same horse they tried, one an adult hunter and one a 1.4m jumper. Both eventually became solid citizens around the jumps again but it was a long, long time.

I would tell the seller, you aren’t looking for any money or to bad mouth them, only that the horse is acting way off and is there anything they can tell you to help? It can be really helpful to know Dobbin has always been fussy about saddle fit, or that you need to man handle him a bit, or that he got scared and needs some help. As someone else noted, careful jumpers can be very challenging rides because you need to be accurate and confident every.single.jump. It’s a little late for this but a horse that’s willing to go bowling for you is not the worst one to show you the ropes.

I’m not entirely clear from your post if you tried him or bought him off video. If you tried him, can you tell us a little bit more about how that went?

[RacetrackReject]

Someone else mentioned possible saddle fit issues and I didn’t see if you covered that. It would something worth visiting, especially if you use a different saddle for dressage and he seems better then.

[greysfordays]

I had a horse like this. He ended up having raging ulcers. Once treated, he was better, but still spooky with me. He would be fine for my trainer, but really struggled with me. i did a ton of work on the ground with him, lots of treats for calmly trotting by evil standards in the corner that were always there, etc. But he just wasn’t very reliable and honestly, it just wasn’t that fun to ride him. We bought a dead green 6 year old and when I realized I felt more confident on a young and green horse I barely knew, something clicked for me.

I put him in the care of my trainer and I remember watching a junior jump him casually over an open water like it was nothing. I realized in that moment that what probably started as a physical problem was exacerbated by my own tension in riding him. With a clean slate and a comfortable gut, he was in a much better place mentally.

Sometimes it’s just not a great fit. That said, I’m grateful for that experience bc I learned a lot about ground work and managing tension. I have a new horse who is very experienced. But he has obviously been poled. He is actually more tense with a pole on the ground than jumping a huge jump with spooky fill. He will not just walk over a pole, he has to leap it. I thought he might be weird about things on the ground, but last week on the trail he steered into a small branch and didn’t care a thing about it. It makes me so sad people abuse horses these way. Big respected names do it and it’s awful.

[Willesdon]

@pinkpikeurs

I have owned this horse for a couple of months. I was looking for an experienced jumper to give me confidence but had ability to take me into the 1m at least… The horse I bought is in his early teens, he is an imported warmblood with show experience in germany and extensive fei and usef record with $$ wins in the 1.10-1.45. Last owner was doing 1.10-1.20, even a month before I bought him. He was being sold as a schoolmaster/teacher. Also being trained for most of his life in Germany, he has a very good dressage foundation, although never competed in dressage that I can see

Buying a horse is always a stressful process because one has particular requirements and preferences and dreams. So does the horse but, unfortunately, he can’t tell you in words. Some times human and horse just don’t click. Simple as that.

What strikes me is that this a teenage horse trained and ridden in the German style for most of his life. German riders have deep seats, strong legs, ride into a contact and expect the horse to do what it is told. American riders have a very, very different style: out of the saddle, weight forward and really light contact. This horse might just be utterly confused and, being used to an in-charge rider, finds one lacking confidence to be totally horrifying.

Then add in to the mix an unknown history of correction/discipline/abuse and no explanation about why the horse was sold on as a schoolmaster (age or injury?) given that showjumpers can be competitive at the top level into their late teens. A mystery. Is he happy doing dressage? Is he as fearful if jumping outside an arena? He is fortunate to have a human who is thinking so hard about this relationship.

As an example of different styles of riding, I was riding with a couple of friends, on vacation in Spain, on some beautiful WB horses from a Dutch owned stable. Lovely horses, impeccable grooming, expensive and extensive tack. Two Brits and an Irish woman riding along a country track on a loose rein as we giggled and gossiped and stared at the view and our Dutch guide, riding straight-backed and formal, taking the mick out of the English. The next moment my Irish friend was standing on her feet with a horse down flat on its face between her legs. The horse was so used to having every footstep precisely directed he just couldn’t balance by himself.

[TrotFence]

Not sure where you are located but have you tested him for Lyme? Once had a high level hunter coming way down to the 2’3-2’6 role from the professional / junior hunter job. He began stopping all over the place (including with multiple trainers) and at a certain point wouldn’t go over a ground pole at a walk. Had a workup done and the issue turned out to be high levels of lyme. He was treated for that but wasn’t quite the same after - the experience left him and me very rattled and I wasn’t confident enough to get him going again. He was eventually sold to a walk/trot/canter/crossrail program and he’s thriving in that job.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing OP! Sorry that you are in this situation.

[GraceLikeRain]

I hope you get answers OP. If memory serves, you were looking at Arena or Bates saddles a few months ago. I remember loving your username (and dreaming of pink breeches!) and googled Arena because I was not familiar with the brand. I think both are built with CAIR panels. While a lot of people have success, I have heard that some horses find them overly firm. I’d be super curious to know if he went differently in a wool flocked saddle. Maybe a red herring but some are really sensitive and if they get “poked” one too many times when they lift through their back over fence then fences start becoming the enemy.

[asterix]

You’ve gotten lots of good advice about tracking down potential pain issues, and I love that you have already decided to open the door to a dressage path for this horse. If he has been psychologically damaged from prior experiences you may not be able to completely reverse that, and he might need a change in career.
My horse of a lifetime was a dressage horse who became very stressed by the life he was living - lots of drilling, only ever ridden in an indoor, very little turnout. After sending him for significant training at a good FEI barn and having the vet out over and over, his owner concluded he just wasn’t happy. They sent him to an event trainer who started jumping him, and he blossomed. I bought him a few months later at a steal of a price (since he was new to eventing and at the time very much not what people were looking for - great big German WB).
It took him about a year to become the horse he would be for the rest of his life. He learned to hack out, to interact with other horses in turnout, not to tense up anticipating being asked to change (we literally didn’t even ask for counter canter for a year).
He was a prince, he lived out 24-7 in a 70 acre field, and was the happiest horse doing his job I’ve ever seen…except for dressage, which he tolerated, as long as it wasn’t in the indoor.
I will always be grateful to his first ammie owner, who recognized her dream horse didn’t want to do the job she bought him for.
She still came to visit him on occasion 10 years later.

[TheDBYC]

I leased a fantastic NZ TB that was a “failed” upper level eventer. He was in training with a BNT/R for a substantial period of time when he arrived. I’m unsure if he was imported by BNT/R for their own mount or for a client. Either way, the aim was for him to be a CCI**** horse. He was a small framed 16hh & it sounds like he was intimidated by the increasingly difficult questions going X country and completely melted down upon moving from training to prelim. It sounds like all training ground to a halt soon after as he reached the point of being unable to absorb anything due to his anxiety.

To their credit, BNT/R firmly advocated for him to whomever the owner was at that point that the training path he was on was not in his best interests. It sounds like once he left BNT/R’s facility, the owner desperately tried other jumping-related career paths with him in an attempt to salvage their hefty investment. He was basically unstoppable fox hunting; overtaking the master despite biting that made his mouth bleed.

His current owner was a professional groom for that barn. She was quite fond of him & she was plainly his favorite human. They ended up selling him to her for $1. She spent the next year carefully unwinding his overcoiled brain. Nothing but quiet “nature walks” in an English hackamore. Just deprogramming all the bad associations he had with being under saddle. They have an amazing bond. She clips him unassisted, for example. When it’s time to get at the area around his elbows, she kickstands her foot & he rests his calf on hers.

She apparently got him back to where he was happy eventing at BN & Novice at one point. His true love is dressage & thanks to his formidable training as a youngster, he is extrey well schooled ( finished 4th level & competed once once at PSG). We think between his original purchase price/import/training, he cost $250k.

Jumping any height went out the window after He sustained a fracture roughhousing with his best buddy. Now he is a professional dressage lesson horse, as his owner jokingly refers to him. He was fantastic for me because he’s old enough to be quirky & complex but not dangerous, strong enough to comfortably manage 4th level work when correctly conditioned, as an amateur friendly personality, AND has all the crazy fancy buttons installed absolutely correctly. And he’s honest. He’ll require you to ask 100% correctly, but he will respond if you do.

He isn’t an enjoyable ride in the field in the company of other horses and/or if you want to trot or canter. Seems like he has PTSD. He’ll happily hack out alone at a walk for hours. I rode him in two clinics with a German riding master, took him to my first ever test - Intro level - without a trainer with us. He’s stunning & likes to show off. Throw on some music, especially Lady Gaga, & he’s a total blast to ride. He might’ve made a small tour GP horse if things had started a bit differently for him as a youngster.

So, it definitely can be done!