My high level jumper is scared of jumps

[Ruth0552]

I think you are on the right path, OP. I mean, getting all the physical stuff checked is a given, but the things you’ve been doing with him in terms of the tacking up and riding, walking around the jumps, etc., are all things that will help him learn that jumps are not the enemy.

I wouldn’t write him off as a non-jumper just yet. I’m guessing this guy has been so “managed” that he hasn’t really ever had the chance to bond with one person for a long time. It’s amazing what that relationship can do for a horse. Once they begin to really trust you, they are much more likely to overcome their own personal obstacles.

Have you tried showing him a log in a field? Does he have the same reaction?

[TheDBYC]

An observation that ties into Ladyj79’s comment based on having watched what feels like a million sale/lease ads in the past month: the riding cultures of Europe, the UK, and the US are so forking different from each other. The horses produced are dramatically different. In Europe especially, there are professional riders who do nothing but ride young horses. We don’t really have that in the US. I saw numerous ads for imports that competed (and supposedly won) at dizzying heights that were listed as prospects for those same heights here in the US & were currently showing at a foot or more lower.

So are Europeans selling us their bad horses? Sometimes, I imagine. But I don’t think that explains the height differences in all those sale ads. I think it is more
to do with the differences in the way we all ride. In the US we have: 1) a huge AA contingent 2) a majority of those AA relying on the advice of trainers re what they should & shouldn’t be doing. I belong to two FB groups where UK-based riders way outnumber US ones. UK AA tend to be much bolder riders, & imo not always in a good/safe way. 3) US horse people tend to be more invested in knowing why a horse is exhibiting an unwanted behavior. Just like you are doing here.

Personally, I believe most horses want to make people happy & have a bond. Interpreting human expectations and meetig them is therefore important to them. Of course they don’t speak our language & rely instead on subtle energetic cues that we sometimes don’t even realize we’re sending. And for horses with a more anxious personality, that can cause start a vicious cycle:

A horse jumping 1.50m with a pro in Europe arrives in the US. Everything is unfamiliar: the terrain, the language his caretakers are speaking, etc. He jumps his first course with his new owner, a skilled AA. She rides differently. He finds himself having to think hard before offering a response. Now he’s worried because previous humans let him know in no uncertain terms that hesitation isn’t good. Sensing his anxiety & definitely feeling him hang back as they approach that 4’ oxer thinks, “Oh, god what have I done?? I paid $100k that I don’t have for a confidence builder. But he’s acting anxious & balky!” The horse feels her rush of nervousness & thinks “She’s not happy She’s scared! Oh no. I must be doing this wrong! Abort mission!” And slides to a halt in front of the fence. Whooo boy.

We just picked up a pony today on trial for my daughter. The pony is well schooled but has been out of work for a while. She is sweet and calm as can be & seems confident around people. Still, it was interesting to see her reactions to my daughter during their first ride. She was very focused on the verbal & physical feedback from daughter & her trainer. She was obviously concerned that this introduction go well, and started pulling out all the pony hunter stops – auto lead changes (which the trainer said she hadn’t done in the demo at her home barn despite the test rider being better than my daughter) and just extremely focused on daughter’s aids. As she gained reassurance they were pleased with her, I could suddenly see her personality in her eyes for the first time. If that makes any sense!

With horses that over worry about human approval & hate to fail, I believe taking the time to demonstrate that you won’t ask them to do anything that is too much goes a long way. I think there’s also something to be said for the “Ten Year Old Horse Girl” approach. A trainer of mine had a spectacularly athletic, talented, and extremely anxious WB that was affectionately nicknamed the dragon. Thanks to her careful training he wouldn’t actually hurt anyone but he was huge looked as intimidating as hell. And you couldn’t have paid me to get on him without a catcher on either side. Lol. In the hands of most people, this would have been a dangerous, basically untrainable horse.

One afternoon, my horse whisperer younger daughter came with me to the barn. She fed my horse & his “brother” a few treats. “Can I give the Dragon a treat, mom?” I hesitated, then said yes. “Be very careful,” I warned her as she approached. (I was also monitoring his body language, ready to pull her away.) He stuck his head out with his usual snake face. Then something fascinating happened. He froze for a split second & his ears flipped back & forth. I watched him seemingly melt with his exhale and his ears swiveled forward. He very delicately took the cookie from her palm. And then another.

This horse NEVER had his ears pricked towards an adult! What happened? Well, he’d not met any kids before. And I think he felt her energy was very different than that of an adult. She wasn’t looking at him & seeing an expensive, time-consuming, often frustrating problem to be solved. To her, he was just the most stunning horse ever, beyond anything she could’ve dreamed. I think he saw her as a human with expectations he could comfortably live up to. He didn’t have to worry she would be disappointed with his efforts.

Best of luck with your horse, OP! He’s lucky to have found you. And I think you’ll get it all sorted out.

[pinkpikeurs]

Just wanted to give an update. He saw the vet and the vet wasn’t that concerned about KS yet but he did highly suspect stomach and hindgut ulcers. We didn’t scope him but decided to treat him with a round of ulcerguard and succeed. He responded really well, he’s only on the first week so behavior wise isn’t much different but he does seem less crabby and his poop looks way more normal. It was kinda yellow and soft, and would leak down his legs, also had a sour smell. As my trainer went south for the winter, I found another trainer who is more specifically dressage and is used to hot, spooky horses and she thought he had a lot of potential in dressage and did not consider him hot or spooky, just looky and unsure. I’ve had 3 dressage trainers sit on him and all of them thought he had a ton of potential and could go third level at the moment with the right rider because he does know stuff. He seems to actually enjoy it as well and I did have someone push him a bit and he still went well. He’s being ridden in a snaffle with no spurs and is going really well without even trying that hard yet. It just seems to come to him pretty easily and he picks up on things quickly in general. He is a smart horse when not blinded by fear. So thats the route we will be going. We also discovered he is a horse who likes to be somewhat micromanaged and likes to constantly have a task and keep his brain busy. I’ve been told he may respond better to jumping if he gets some time away from it to “come down” as well. Thats something I may consider later. Luckily I also have dressage goals (that are bigger than my jumping goals) so I have no issue doing dressage with him even though its not why I bought him. I’d hate to sell him for that reason alone because this is probably the horse I would be looking for in a few years when I wanted a dressage horse. He has the big german WB build and is built up hill and has big suspended movement naturally. Plus the dressage horse market is so much more expensive than the jumpers and I feel like I’d have to pay even more to have the same quality horse with any sort of recognized dressage experience. Now I just need to learn how to really ride to do him justice

[Spudsmyguy]

Sounds a lot like a horse I knew except it was a mare. Sweet, lovely, well bred TB hunter whom they paid a lot of money for but, unfortunately, the owner/rider was an idiot and got left behind over every fence grabbing horse in the mouth constantly. So this lovely horse started stopping at all the fences unwilling to go forward knowing what was going to happen. Instead of teaching rider to stay with the horse, they forced the horse over the fences with spurs and crops still getting hit in the mouth over every fence. As a result, the mare started racing through the course just wanting to get it over with. Horse ended up with a blown suspensory and after a lengthy rehab and trying her again over fences, horse’s brain was fried and they sold her at a rock bottom price. Rider then bought an even more expensive jumper and did the exact same thing to him.

[Willesdon]

Lovely update. I suspect you will thrive in dressage because you are attuned to your horse and look for solutions. Enjoy the journey, both of you.

[Jealoushe]

Happy to hear there is some positive news.

This comment is a bit late but I have heard about some European horses that they are ridden very differently than what some in NA might be used to. A friend who worked in Germany noted that the jumpers take a very good feel on the mouth and drive with their legs to the fences. Which is not really common in N/A teaching styles. Not sure if this is something that has been explored with how to ride this horse. I know my friend said it was hard for her to adjust at first to the difference in how the horses wanted to be ridden.

[mika0116]

All of my jumper leases that came from Germany/ NL, despite being hot, forward horses with rubber snaffle mouths, LOVED contact, all the way to the base with a nice flowing autorelease on the sides of their necks. One of the few reasons I came to love my long arms - made it easier to follow over a fence.

I call the European ride “hold gentle but present [contact], wait, with supporting leg”. Good elbows was a massive part of my riding development to ride with soft contact.

Granted, I was taught to ride this way in NA, so I am curious… how are people taught to ride to fences otherwise? I did ride a horse that would jump around on basically 0 contact, but I hated the ride, canter felt flat and mechanical, not a fluid “round canter”. I thought I just didn’t like modern NA hunters.

[findeight]

This thread is somewhat related to the “new horse rears” thread. In this case, OPs horse seems to do better on a managed type ride. There are other factors here for sure but maybe its part of why this horse slid down the jumping ladder and is such a different horse with Dressage work then over fences.

Just food for thought.

[GoneAway]

@mika0116

“hold gentle but present [contact], wait, with supporting leg”

Honestly, this describes the Forward Seat (North American style) as well. Forward seat in the classic sense was never about riding around with no contact. Even today, top US show jumpers and clinicians preach a short rein and gentle contact. I’ve found the difference is more on how much the seat is used. Some European schools like the German school usually sit much deeper in the saddle and sit a majority of the time, so the seat becomes a supportive or driving aid. Most of the time the outlines (frames) of the horses in the European schools are higher/more compact as well. The forward seat/North American school is either half or light seat most of the time, and varying degrees of contact in the saddle depending on the situation (sitting/driving when necessary). The primary supporting aid in the forward seat is the leg.

[mika0116]

Interesting! This gives me a lot of context.

In NA I was taught to lighten my seat a fair amount as my junior career was in dressage, taught to me by a European. I occasionally light up / piss off a few horses by having a deep seat and not enough leg, as lots of dressage horses I rode as a junior rode primarily off seat/weight, leg was used to command almost secondarily.

Must be why I like naturally, quite forward horses, perhaps when intimidated, I tend to have not the most present leg and rely on my seat for security! Holy crap, this explains why I am a better rider without irons, my seat becomes the primary aid as I DO NOT have the core to remain in half seat for long durations without irons. Mind BLOWN. Thank you!

[findeight]

Eh, dont think long no irons sessions is going to help as much as just thinking and realizing how better to get along and adapt you approach to riding any particular horse. Kind of an Edison moment, light bulb in brain goes off. Ohhhhh, I get it. Horses also have these moments but it takes longer for some of them then others and they never will get it without very, very consistent rider input. Same way every single time anybody touches the horse so they can learn what’s expected.

Thats one reason a good “cowboy’ can be so effective. Theres no tricks or secrets to majikally fix things. Its common sense, understanding what the horse needs, patience and a ton of drama free time. Likewise, if ulcers are helping create the bad behavior, eliminating the pain often does NOT eliminate the bad behavior like majik.

Venture to say many of us on here have seen the honeymoon with a new horse suddenly turn into a trip to hell. Newhorsitis is pretty common. After they get comfortable in new surroundings and make a few horsey buddies, you find out what you really bought. You both have to struggle to get on the same page. Most expensive horse I ever bought was great for about 8 weeks then spun out from under me at a loose rein walk cooling out with a wicked shoulder drop. Cracked a rib, drove home in tears. Had to adjust my riding and horse’s attitude and it did not happen quickly. Never allowed that horse another opportunity to pull that stunt and showed it for 10 years, best and most successful one I ever had…but any rider, self included, always had to be aware, feel and watch for subtle signs and just not allow the horse the opportunity.

Hang in there, watch and learn. Dont have to kill yourself, just out think and understand.

Learned bad behavior that has worked for well for some time for any horse is hard to completely eliminate from their brain but using your own brain to stop it before it starts works much better then trying to correct it after the fact.

Please update us as you continue the journey.

[mika0116]

@findeight

Eh, dont think long no irons sessions is going to help as much as just thinking and realizing how better to get along and adapt you approach to riding any particular horse. Kind of an Edison moment, light bulb in brain goes off. Ohhhhh, I get it. Horses also have these moments but it takes longer for some of them then others and they never will get it without very, very consistent rider input. Same way every single time anybody touches the horse so they can learn what’s expected.

Oh I think you misunderstood me here. I thread hijacked and my post had NOTHING to do with the OP. It had to do with my own light blub moment about having a much more present seat aid than most NA riders, as I rode dressage under a European trainer for much of my young riding years.

OP needs to ride the horse she has under a trainer who can help fill in the training style holes until OP & new horse are on same page when it comes to style, strength, and timing of aids! I can’t contribute much to the OP’s plight, as my answer would be time for the horse to settle, and work with a trainer familiar with imported European horses. IMO, @TheDBYC has the best answer - I cannot top that!

[scislandsprite]

If he’s happily able to school 3rd level with no big deal, then you can probably bring this horse higher with a dressage trainer. I agree with your trainer on the pricing for dressage horses nowadays. In my area looking for a confirmed WB going 3rd level with potential to go higher is ridiculous if you want them sound. Really good age too!
Also as a dressage rider who recently started incorporating clicker training/positive reinforcement, I think that’s the way to go for the pole work! If you’d like, I can send some recommendations for positive reinforcement trainers who work with sport horses.

[twobits]

It sounds like you’ve made a fantastic decision for you and your horse. One thing that came to mind, if everything else was ruled out (ulcers, pain), is that some horses lose confidence over smaller jumps because they aren’t used to doing them. I had a friend whose horse felt more comfortable and confident jumping the prelim log than the entry log. She couldn’t get the horse over an X, but point him at a 2ft9 vertical? He would instantly be overwhelmed with confidence and ease. She said it’s the only horse she has ever had like that, but mentioned there are other event horses (ridden by advanced eventers) that can be similar. Not sure if this might apply in your position/experience, but should you want to consider jumping down the road, it might be something to keep in mind! Good luck, sounds like your horse found a fantastic human

[BITSA]

sounds like pain, you need to get his back and neck (from poll to C6-7) looked at. Im so sorry you are going through this. Is he insured? Please dont sell him without finding out if its pain.