A horse that will kick you in the face? Sounds like you should have checked out other trainers yourself. If a horse has trouble with a grid, beating him and continually forcing him through it doesn’t get it done.
I’ve been around trainers like your sister in law, and I’ve remained silent. To my shame.
I want to stay out of it, but will say I guess the person accusing Ellen of beating my horse is unaware of a couple things - I was there, I was riding up until the point he clattered through the grid and dumped me on a jump - and proceeded to try it again a couple times. Bud was my horse for 14 years, he looked easy but he was dangerous. What 1400lb isn’t? He’d kick you in the face in a lunge line if you’d let him. If I thought Ellen was mistreating him I would have drug her off and strangled her. Before you ask, I’ve been involved with horses for 30 years.
Yeah, so I don’t know about anyone else, but if my horse was this “dangerous”, I might start looking at known causes. It doesn’t scream “wonderful horseman” to me to have to drill a horse through a grid repeatedly if it’s refusing and it continue. Methinks the horse doth protest for a reason. But that’s just me.
[QUOTE=katyloumartin;8986894]
I was riding up until the point he clattered through the grid and dumped me on a jump - and proceeded to try it again a couple times. Bud was my horse for 14 years, he looked easy but he was dangerous. What 1400lb isn’t? He’d kick you in the face in a lunge line if you’d let him. If I thought Ellen was mistreating him I would have drug her off and strangled her. Before you ask, I’ve been involved with horses for 30 years.[/QUOTE]
:eek:
There is nuance in the above paragraph? ‘Nuance’ is not the word that comes to mind when you’re talking about actions like a ‘kick in the face’ and to ‘drug someone off and strangle’ them.
You said this horse was ‘dangerous’ and would ‘kick you in the face on a lunge line’. And so you donated him to a center for disabled kids?
WTF?
You said this horse was ‘dangerous’ and would ‘kick you in the face on a lunge line’. And so you donated him to a center for disabled kids? WTF?
My thoughts exactly.
You’re unreal.
If this is a witch hunt… we’ve found a few.
This thread is better then any NetFlix…
Chelseabun, my heart hurts for you. I feel like you’re blaming yourself for a lot. We’ve all experienced that ‘one trainer’ who made us doubt everything we’ve ever done. I hope that you’ve gone on with your kids and found a trainer who is a fit for both of them. You should be able to say to your trainer ‘this isn’t working out’ and have them amicably agree to part ways. As someone who had the cops called on me by a crazy trainer for reclaiming my property, I fully understand this isn’t always possible.
As for saying your horse would kick out on the lunge line, I guess my question was if it was before or after your SIL took the horse over? If he just STARTED to be like that when she took over the reins that should answer a lot. I’ve dealt with quite a few of the local horse therapy groups and they don’t take horses with such behavior so it makes me question a lot if he was good for them, but clearly was not under this circumstance. All of that aside, deepest sympathies for your loss. No matter which side of the fence you’re on with this debate, losing horses is never easy.
I think what get’s people in general is when another sends mix messages. I can see your 30 years of horses by the attitude that comes through the words. No everyone with decades of experience talk like you, but enough that leave a mark on the industry as a whole.
Let’s starts with the Never happened. Um, by your own words, it did. The horse refused, blew up agrid, you or Ellen tried at least 2 more times. The only thing you leave out is what the Parent Post commented on in terms of beating. That is the anecdotal part, but you just confirmed the first by stating "proceeded to try it again two times. Either it did happene and you saw Ellen’s action’s differently or if “Never Happened” and the Parent Poster made up the story. Please clarify?
“He looked easy, but was dangerous.”
Katyloumartin, dangerous is not a word to throw around lightly. You say “every horse is dangerous”, but then so is every human. For those 30 years you must have lived in constant fear with that view point. Unless, is there a cut off weight? My horse is 1150 lbs, and I never see him as dangerous. Sure, If I was in the wrong spot and he spooked and kicked me bad things might happen, but as I am aware of what he can do as a horse, I am also aware of how to mitigate it. I am not fearful of my horse, I just respect them very much and treat them as such.
I’d doubt that Bud was “dangerous”, but he certainly may have reacted strongly to bad or rough treatment. We hopefully train horses to do things willingly for us, so when they don’t, punishing them is not good training, figuring out why and fixing is. It seems that Ellen has a habit of attempting to school a horse way past the moment (referring to her closed warm-up moment and now this). She may be a 4* rider, but perhaps that does not equate into good training for people or horses.
Defend her as you will, but when you do, be clear, keep your stories straight, and don’t exaggerate for it only confuses those you wanted to convince.
As to horses be horses what does that mean? Sure if they live in a wild herd then horses be horses, but the moment they enter our world, it is our responsibility to at times avert the worst of such times.
Drowning in a pasture is not horses being horses
Getting injured by hail is not horses being horses
Suffering from colic in a barn, with people around, and vets, and medicine is not horses being horses.
We cannot bubble wrap them and they can do …stuff… in pastures or stalls we cannot always stop, but we should also not dismiss such moments, but perhaps learn from them and work to avoid the next one.
And since I cannot still Edit (Come on COTH, fix this, it should not be that hard)
Between a lion and a horse, which one is dangerous? You can choose only one.
See, with a lion, brave or pissing in my pants, that lion will happily make a meal of me no matter what I do outside of shooting him. Now that horse, it is more afraid of me then I should be of him. What makes it “dangerous” is in thinking I’m better then him or her; that my hubris thinks, because it is afraid, I can control it.
The dangerous one in that relationship is the human, not the horse for that is a human that will teach by fear, not support. That is my one caveat to your use of “Dangerous”. A horse taught by fear will eventually attempt to get away, by any means, even trying to kick you in the face. In that moment it is not the horses fault, it is the human.
In the past few days I’ve read through this entire thread. I, like many others, have no dog in this fight but offer sincere condolences to the OP and the many others who have been hurt or manipulated by Ellen.
JP60, your post above is extremely well written and clearly thought out. Great post.
JP60 - applause
Did you or Ellen repeatedly crash the horse through a grid or not? Did you or Ellen repeatedly whip the horse or not? Was the horse dangerous or not? At least stick to a story that makes sense.
I too am a JP60 fan.
And what is this ‘sense’ you speak of?!
I have been eventing for 30 years. I have no horses that are dangerous, I don’t have to beat them to get them to jump. I am not scared of them and they are not scared of me. I have never had to beat a horse in public. On the other hand, I have met upper level trainers like Ellen, and have seen first hand how they get a hook into people and how students buy into control trips. I think it is fairly common in the horse world, like there is an aspect of personality that comes that way in their obsessive need to drive for the top, the need to impress others, the need to be the best at something, while some people, like myself are happy to plunk around and spend time with horses, it’s enough delight inside just the way it is.
[QUOTE=JER;8986964]
:eek:
There is nuance in the above paragraph? ‘Nuance’ is not the word that comes to mind when you’re talking about actions like a ‘kick in the face’ and to ‘drug someone off and strangle’ them.
You said this horse was ‘dangerous’ and would ‘kick you in the face on a lunge line’. And so you donated him to a center for disabled kids?
WTF?[/QUOTE]
JER nails it as usual.
"I was there, I was riding up until the point he clattered through the grid and dumped me on a jump - and proceeded to try it again a couple times. Bud was my horse for 14 years, he looked easy but he was dangerous. What 1400lb isn’t? He’d kick you in the face in a lunge line if you’d let him. If I thought Ellen was mistreating him I would have drug her off and strangled her. Before you ask, I’ve been involved with horses for 30 years.
I don’t know much, but Ellen lives and breathes horses."
Self assessment is priceless…
I personally thank you. As someone who rents stalls to trainers, it is always good to know who to steer clear of.
The last one here left syringes with needles still attached in my hay field, where she would throw them in the manure spreader and then go spread it. I tried warning other barns…BIG mistake. I was accused by many people of planting them!!! It is hard to come forward. It happened to someone else in my area before she came here and they were jumped all over, too!
[QUOTE=Oldandwithered;8983496]
Or page 2 if you are needing a majickal one.[/QUOTE]
Do they come in a size to fit adult men? Lol
Every time someone comes on here to defend EDH they have to start with the name calling. Just an FYI that makes your support less credible than ever when you do that…
There is a theme here of making horses jump like crazy and pushing them when they are not wanting to…that in itself is enough to make you question whether the trainer has any real knowledge of the basics of horse training.
My filly was injured (laceration) while I was out of town. I received no call. The ws attitude was "well she’s not lame’ as I examined the fly covered wound. Horses get injured that’s a fact but the attitude was inappropriate. I was able to haul her to the vet and to a new place immediately.
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