My horrible experiences with Texas horse trainer/instructor Ellen Doughty-Hume

[allons-y]

good grief, perspective people

[QUOTE=HWood;8988792]
I could not drive by that place without thinking about the horror that must have taken place that day. And it took months for them to have a crew repair the fence- but even today I still think about it.

I grew up with ponies/horses. 45$ a month. Pasture, stalls, BO fed am and let out, we brought in and fed pm (and cleaned stalls).

He was an illiterate, mill worker by day, land owner 24/7. His wife of 40 years milked the cow every day for their milk. He wormed with chewing “tobaccy” and worked his land as his father taught him

NO horse drowned on his watch, No horse had cellulitis and didn’t get treated. No colic went unnoticed. No horse suffered under his “ignorant” care. Because he may have been uneducated, but he certainly wasn’t uncaring.

The villain in this thread is uncaring to the horses,period

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8988785]
Thst doesn’t make it ok, it just is no more likely to risk other horses than the accepted practice of relying on a coggins test all year[/QUOTE]

Exactly…and most request coggins because it is proof the horse had vaccines…or more likely they had their vaccines. Were the horses vaccinated regularly?

[JP60]

@allons-y

I grew up with ponies/horses. 45$ a month. Pasture, stalls, BO fed am and let out, we brought in and fed pm (and cleaned stalls).

He was an illiterate, mill worker by day, land owner 24/7. His wife of 40 years milked the cow every day for their milk. He wormed with chewing “tobaccy” and worked his land as his father taught him

NO horse drowned on his watch, No horse had cellulitis and didn’t get treated. No colic went unnoticed. No horse suffered under his “ignorant” care. Because he may have been uneducated, but he certainly wasn’t uncaring.

The villain in this thread is uncaring to the horses,period

I love this post!!

Lately I’ve considered a life change. I’ve worked in IT for close to 40 years and burnt-out happened sometime back. When I entered the horse world 10+ years ago I was blessed to land at a fantastic barn and trainer who taught me more than just riding. She taught horsemanship, that the horse comes first, and all that those two things entail. I may not be an expert on conformation or breeding, may not have the depth of knowledge to diagnose what may be wrong (outside the basics), but I learned that a vet is a phone call away when something is wrong. I’ve owned my own farm for 6 years, dealt with horses getting hurt, sick…dying (old age and cancer), and all the other stuff.

Yet were I to knock on the door for a BM position, owners would most likely look at me (56 yo btw) and say, no experience. Then we have the Ellen’s of the world. 4* rider, accomplished trainer, horse owner…she’d be snatched up in a heartbeat by an unsuspecting Barn Owner.

I a guess what matters in the end is the character of a person, not just what the piece of paper may say. At least, that was my take away from allons-y post.

[JP60]

[ Originally Posted by vxf111 [IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png)
Thst doesn’t make it ok, it just is no more likely to risk other horses than the accepted practice of relying on a coggins test all year

[/I]

@Jealoushe

Exactly…and most request coggins because it is proof the horse had vaccines…or more likely they had their vaccines. Were the horses vaccinated regularly?

I kind of remember that the USEA issued a change for entry into shows such that you had to show a list of all vaccinations for the past 12 months. I know I had to have it for the AECs.

It blows me away to think that people would fake a Coggins. They’ll blow twice or triple the cost of a coggins, which is good for a year, on one show WTF!

I would rather take the very small risk of some reaction to a vaccine then to put at risk numbers of horses by spreading a disease that could be prevented. Faking medical documents is extremely irresponsible and should even be agaisnt the law.

[judybigredpony]

Faking medical documents is extremely irresponsible and should even be agaisnt the law.[/QUOTE]

Of course faking or presenting coggins on wrong horses is Very Illegal and compounded if traveling over state lines…Prove it and report it to USEA USEF and State Police , Border Police, Departments Governing Livestock Inspections…stiff fine at the very least…

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=JP60;8989338]
[ Originally Posted by vxf111 [IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png)
Thst doesn’t make it ok, it just is no more likely to risk other horses than the accepted practice of relying on a coggins test all year

[/I]

I kind of remember that the USEA issued a change for entry into shows such that you had to show a list of all vaccinations for the past 12 months. I know I had to have it for the AECs.

It blows me away to think that people would fake a Coggins. They’ll blow twice or triple the cost of a coggins, which is good for a year, on one show WTF!

I would rather take the very small risk of some reaction to a vaccine then to put at risk numbers of horses by spreading a disease that could be prevented. Faking medical documents is extremely irresponsible and should even be agaisnt the law.[/QUOTE]

A horse having a “hot” coggins is a real thing in Texas. Maybe not all areas have problems, but those close to the Louisiana border have had issues with horses coming over from LA with either no coggins or a fake coggins and then that horse testing hot once it was in Texas. There is no manned station at the 190 crossing from LA to TX.
Years ago, I rented a house with pasture. The pasture was leased to someone else for their horses. The guy who was leasing the pasture brought a horse in that he purchased in LA and he had a coggins pulled a few days later. It came back hot and the state had to come out. He had to pay to quarantine his horses and for testing of all horses within a certain mile radius for months afterwards. It was a huge costly mess and it wasn’t a rare event in this area.

No comment beyond “not surprised” at the EDH stuff. Texas is big, but even it’s not big enough to hide some things.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;8989385]
A horse having a “hot” coggins is a real thing in Texas. Maybe not all areas have problems, but those close to the Louisiana border have had issues with horses coming over from LA with either no coggins or a fake coggins and then that horse testing hot once it was in Texas. There is no manned station at the 190 crossing from LA to TX.
Years ago, I rented a house with pasture. The pasture was leased to someone else for their horses. The guy who was leasing the pasture brought a horse in that he purchased in LA and he had a coggins pulled a few days later. It came back hot and the state had to come out. He had to pay to quarantine his horses and for testing of all horses within a certain mile radius for months afterwards. It was a huge costly mess and it wasn’t a rare event in this area.

No comment beyond “not surprised” at the EDH stuff. Texas is big, but even it’s not big enough to hide some things.[/QUOTE]

This may all be true but the reality is… unless you pull a coggins every day, you could ALSO be transporting an infected horse and not know it.

It’s reprehensible, dishonest, and clearly I don’t condone faking coggins… but among this person’s apparent LONG list of transgressions, this one seems low on the spectrum of “risking other horses.”

We all risk our horse every time we take them in public. There could be an asymptomatic but contagious horse stalled next door who has ALL kinds of things (strangles, EIA, etc.) brought out by a well-meaning owner who didn’t know.

Now, if you’re saying Ellen KNOWS her horses have EIA and fakes their coggins to hide it, that’s something ENTIRELY different… but I don’t think anyone is saying that.

I think what she’s being accused of is being too lazy to get Blaze’s coggings test done so she grabs Stripes, who looks similar, and uses that instead. It’s dishonest. I don’t condone it. But that’s no more likely to spread EIA than taking out Blaze, who got his coggins pulled and came back negative last week, but who in the meantime contracted EIA from a mosquito bite and nobody yet knows.

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8989410

It’s reprehensible, dishonest, and clearly I don’t condone faking coggins… but among this person’s apparent LONG list of transgressions, this one seems low on the spectrum of "risking other horses…[/QUOTE]

There seems one to be a point missing here…it Is illegal to intentionally present the Wrong Coggins for the Wrong horse at an Inspecions Station, Horse Show its required Document and rules declare the time sensitivity of it…usually with in 1 year, some times sooner…The facts are if provenEDH would be fined or censured and made to follow the same rules everyone else abides by…Its not a debate over whether horse is actually contagious people…To constantly fly in the face of everyone else and wildly nilly break rules flagrantly sets a tone…My one and only experiance with EDH was unpleasant, I won t regale you with the details…but the full blown screaming tantrum in show secretary office was something no grown up should or would do…and yup she got her way…

[flyingchange]

Exactly vxf111. There are plenty of things to get “outraged” about in horses, and the list of allegations about this trainer is already alarming enough without the faked Coggins thing. I don’t condone faking Coggins either, nor would I consider doing it, but considering the fact that a Coggins reading is good for that one day, or moment at which it was pulled, I don’t find it something to get ones undergarments in a wad over.

And to whomever suggersted that a Coggins infers a recent vaccination record - um, no, the two have zero to do with each other.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;8989471]
There seems one to be a point missing here…it Is illegal to intentionally present the Wrong Coggins for the Wrong horse at an Inspecions Station, Horse Show its required Document and rules declare the time sensitivity of it…usually with in 1 year, some times sooner…The facts are if provenEDH would be fined or censured and made to follow the same rules everyone else abides by…Its not a debate over whether horse is actually contagious people…To constantly fly in the face of everyone else and wildly nilly break rules flagrantly sets a tone…My one and only experiance with EDH was unpleasant, I won t regale you with the details…but the full blown screaming tantrum in show secretary office was something no grown up should or would do…and yup she got her way…[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree. But the person who brought this up (Ilikebig… post #282) said Ellen was “putting other horses at risk.” That’s an exact quote. I disagree with that, at least that it’s any riskier than transporting ANY horse who didn’t get a coggins test done and returned negative that day.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=flyingchange;8989475]

And to whomever suggersted that a Coggins infers a recent vaccination record - um, no, the two have zero to do with each other.[/QUOTE]

I was commenting on WHY shows require this - most do because it is more likely that the horses were vaccinated also. Of course that is not always the case.

Regardless of the risk, she is deliberately breaking the rules for her own benefit. Whether it be lazy or cheap, or maybe because of the ownership listed…who knows. It’s just wrong and speaks volumes about character.

[JP60]

vxf111 and Judy,

The way you guys talk (it’s not that big a deal) is really disconcerting since we are talking about the ability to propagate a serious disease. Looking up on google I found this link and I pulled a quote from it

Recently we have learned more about the transmission of this disease. The disease is spread by horseflies. The large horsefly is the main vector. If they bite an infected horse and then bite a healthy horse, the disease gets transmitted. The virus does not live for very long on the horsefly, maybe as little as fifteen or thirty minutes. So for one horse to infect another they must be close to each other. This disease occurs anywhere horseflies live.

Given what is mentioned here, it is not jsut your thought that the next day a mosquito bite would bring it back so why bother, it is carried by horse flies and they have 15 30 minutes to infect another horse.

If every horse on a farm is tested and found negative, and that farm has good separation from other farms the chance occurrence has to be very small. I could not find specific numbers on horse fly travel distances but a couple links stated several miles, but mainly if they are looking for food or breeding sources.

Spreading a disease is no small or minor manner and either the coggins provides an actual health safety action or why should we do it.

I guess my point is that you almost dismiss it by saying “the next day…” without backing that up. The test is the best possible way to control a spread and even if a horse did somehow (because some shithead decided to fake coggins reports) get infected, the spread could be minimal since the vector is limited by season, distance, and random chance.

With the internet today, I’d support a system that uploads all coggins to a national database that would cross reference reports to horses and allow shows to pull coggins down to compare to those sent.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8989635]
I was commenting on WHY shows require this - most do because it is more likely that the horses were vaccinated also. Of course that is not always the case.

Regardless of the risk, she is deliberately breaking the rules for her own benefit. Whether it be lazy or cheap, or maybe because of the ownership listed…who knows. It’s just wrong and speaks volumes about character.[/QUOTE]

At least in this state, it’s a state requirement for any competition that all horses entered have a negative Coggins within 12 months. Individual shows have zero say in the matter.

The Coggins test has been very effective in reducing the spread of EIA but until/ unless microchipping becomes a requirement we are still largely dependent on people doing the right thing voluntarily. Fortunately there are relatively few EDHs out there.

[vxf111]

Where did I say it’s “no big deal?” It IS a big deal. It’s dishonest. It’s violating the show rules. In some states it may be prohibited.

But that’s different than saying it puts other horses at an appreciably different risk than anytime they go to a show with other horses.

It’s not the coggins TEST that knocked back EIA in the U.S. It’s the practice of euthanizing infected horses that knocked it back.

The test is only a snapshot in time. If a horse JUST got infected, the antibody levels may not be sufficiently high for a week or two. So you could test an infected horse, get a false “negative” and be out and about for a whole YEAR exposing other horses without knowing.

If you test a horse and he’s negative and then gets infected after the test, you could again be out and about exposing other horses.

Testing once a YEAR doesn’t do much except give an overall picture of the community as a whole. AND tell you that horse’s status on that day that the blood was tested. Not the next day. Or even possibly an accurate snapshot THAT day if the horse was recently infected.

EIA is spread by biting flies and other biting insects. Because of how wide the range of flies is, any farm within 3 miles of a farm with a case is considered exposed. A fly can go a mile in 30 minutes!

EIA is a very serious condition. But even horses who get yearly coggins aren’t “safe” if there’s ANY infection anywhere in the area. The coggins isn’t a vaccine. It doesn’t inoculate a horse. It’s just a antibody test.

Compare it to Zika (spread by, inter alia, mosquitos). Imagine you live in an area where it’s been found. You get a blood test today and come back negative. Would you then spend the whole year going to beaches and public places, feeling confident that you’re safe because you got tested 11.5 months ago? That’s what the coggins is, essentially.

[Jennifer_Alcott]

No, they require a negative test for EIA because it’s the law in most, if not all, states in the U.S., not because a piece of paper stating that a horse tested negative for EIA on a particular date infers anything other than that.

See http://law.lis.virginia.gov/admincodeexpand/title2/agency5/chapter70/

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8989635]
I was commenting on WHY shows require this - most do because it is more likely that the horses were vaccinated also. Of course that is not always the case.

Regardless of the risk, she is deliberately breaking the rules for her own benefit. Whether it be lazy or cheap, or maybe because of the ownership listed…who knows. It’s just wrong and speaks volumes about character.[/QUOTE]

[CorazonLock]

I think the likelihood of being out for an entire year without knowing your horse has EIA is fairly slim. I know some horses can be asymptomatic, but I do believe most start showing symptoms and become very sick in a short period of time.

That being said, I agree with the rest of your points.

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;8989471]
There seems one to be a point missing here…it Is illegal to intentionally present the Wrong Coggins for the Wrong horse at an Inspecions Station, Horse Show its required Document and rules declare the time sensitivity of it…usually with in 1 year, some times sooner…The facts are if provenEDH would be fined or censured and made to follow the same rules everyone else abides by…Its not a debate over whether horse is actually contagious people…To constantly fly in the face of everyone else and wildly nilly break rules flagrantly sets a tone…My one and only experiance with EDH was unpleasant, I won t regale you with the details…but the full blown screaming tantrum in show secretary office was something no grown up should or would do…and yup she got her way…[/QUOTE]

I pointed it out because if we think back to the other thread where EDH was a primary character, she was at a show, out of state, in LA. I’m sure she goes to most every event that is held at this facility in LA actually, so it is quite possible that she is crossing state lines with fraudulent papers.

While it’s “no big deal” as of now because none of her horses have, to our knowledge, contracted EIA, it would be a very big deal if that were to happen. No, papers do not mean a horse cannot be infected tomorrow, but that doesn’t change the law.

The numbers from 2015 show that Texas had the highest number of cases of EIA, with Florida in 2nd. https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/downloads/animal_diseases/2015_eia_annual_final.pdf

I’m not saying that this is more important than the wrong she has done to people and horses, but it’s just yet another piece of evidence against her character, and something that is not subjective and is actually against the law.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=CorazonLock;8989761]
I think the likelihood of being out for an entire year without knowing your horse has EIA is fairly slim. I know some horses can be asymptomatic, but I do believe most start showing symptoms and become very sick in a short period of time.

That being said, I agree with the rest of your points. :)[/QUOTE]

It’s the asymptomatic ones that spread it horses who are really sick don’t usually get taken to shows/sold etc.

[judybigredpony]

I have lived in LA back during a time when Coggins were not required like today…xcept for race track and crossing state line…I also had a farm manager in FL with a herd of hot broodmares who never left the farm had their own field and he thought that was just safe…My point was and is…The first step in EDH issue is to get her listed on Rate My Pro…second is that Coggins Falsification is Illegal, enforceable and if caught a public Blackeye…I am not was not contesting the use of or shelf life or contagion zone of the disease…a it was to point out there are ways to make her toe the line nd know she is under a level of scrutiny…remember they got Al Capone? With tax evasion?so it’s the little things that ad up…

[JP60]

@vfx111

Where did I say it’s “no big deal?” It IS a big deal. It’s dishonest. It’s violating the show rules. In some states it may be prohibited.

But that’s different than saying it puts other horses at an appreciably different risk than anytime they go to a show with other horses.

It’s not the coggins TEST that knocked back EIA in the U.S. It’s the practice of euthanizing infected horses that knocked it back.

The test is only a snapshot in time. If a horse JUST got infected, the antibody levels may not be sufficiently high for a week or two. So you could test an infected horse, get a false “negative” and be out and about for a whole YEAR exposing other horses without knowing.

If you test a horse and he’s negative and then gets infected after the test, you could again be out and about exposing other horses.

Testing once a YEAR doesn’t do much except give an overall picture of the community as a whole. AND tell you that horse’s status on that day that the blood was tested. Not the next day. Or even possibly an accurate snapshot THAT day if the horse was recently infected.

EIA is spread by biting flies and other biting insects. Because of how wide the range of flies is, any farm within 3 miles of a farm with a case is considered exposed. A fly can go a mile in 30 minutes!

EIA is a very serious condition. But even horses who get yearly coggins aren’t “safe” if there’s ANY infection anywhere in the area. The coggins isn’t a vaccine. It doesn’t inoculate a horse. It’s just a antibody test.

Compare it to Zika (spread by, inter alia, mosquitos). Imagine you live in an area where it’s been found. You get a blood test today and come back negative. Would you then spend the whole year going to beaches and public places, feeling confident that you’re safe because you got tested 11.5 months ago? That’s what the coggins is, essentially.

My apoligies. An example of a moment I hate when it happens to me. I miss read your first post and missed that the context of your comment was in relation to EDH, as in a faked coggin pales to her other transgressions.

There is a slight sub context though by adding that even if tested today, the horse could get it tomorrow. Sure, even if I survive driving home today, I may not make it tomorrow. What does that mean? I guess we could try and test them every day (highly impractical) or not test them at all (yikes!) or pick a time frame that attempts to mitigate the potentials. Saying it’s a crap shoot even while saying it’s important is confusing to me.

Let’s say we agree on the principal, it is an important test that is not perfect. I can also agree that euthanizing is a part of containment, but without testing…they go hand in hand.

Anyway, the bigger issue was not the efficacy of the test, but that people would go around it when it is the law. I may chat with my vet to get his views on this for I am soon up for a visit.