I do not know EDH personally, I never said I knew a lot about the whole situation. I am not in the same circle. I do not even ride English (I have a background in western cowhorse events.) I do however live in the same vicinity and came across a Cross Fit reference to the near fall that occurred during the Rolex I believe. When I tried to google a photo so I could share with my horsey friends what a crazy save that was, I came across this forum. I read the original post with dismay, but I did reserve judgement as to what the whole story actually was. It’s so hard to know when you do not personally witness something who is telling the most accurate version of their truth. Just like a nasty divorce, each side has a completely different story as to what went wrong. I am not Pro-EDH, but I am also not a hater. I’ve seen some very mean spirited people on this forum and it makes me cringe when no one questions at least some of the statements. Hence, the username. I did start following EDH on Instagram out of curiosity, that’s how I know she was out of state in Colorado during XYZ’s comment about the dirty stalls. And if you remember, that was when I joined the conversation because I too wanted to know who is responsible for barn management. I will readily agree that barn management is a huge issue apparently, but I do not feel comfortable cruxifying someone as inherently evil because I know there is a wide spectrum of opinion on animal welfare. There have been several posts as to the appropriateness of being the judge, jury, and executioner on social media, so I really do not understand why I have been attacked for simply asking the question who IS responsible for day to day care of those horses. It sounds like working students carry the burden, and that is ultimately an unwise decision for EDH to make. However, I know of other facilities that have made similar mistakes but the level of hatred and animosity directed to EDH on a personal level is unprecedented. Some people have made it their personal vendetta. It has solidified my decision to post anonymously because I do not wish to invite hostility into my personal life. My posts stand on their own merit, I have shown no favoritism to either side, but I will speak up when I see the need to ask a question. The true place to get justice is in the courtroom where rules have to be followed and rumors are thrown out the window. I encourage Stormy to pursue a civil lawsuit in order to set matters straight.
Just The Facts, most poor barn management does not result in multiple horse deaths or refusals to call vets for injuries and euthanasia.
Civil lawsuits are remarkably ineffective in stopping behaviors. Now days, almost every business is an LLC, which means that the owner can just shut it down and start up again under another name with an LLC. The owner isn’t personally liable, so it’s really no skin off the owner’s nose. The business can just go bankrupt if a judgment is entered. Civil Lawsuits are very expensive, and only worth pursuing by attorneys if the potential damages are more than six figures–usually a lot more than low six figures, which would normally put a horse business under. And they take years, which does nothing to prevent the harms from continuing. And it’s possible that she has liability insurance.
I know business people here who have multiple small claims court judgments against them for incompetent work and associated damage, and they just go on going on.
Only really bad publicity that affects their personal ability to do business will work to change behavior. You can put scammers out of business with enough bad publicity.
It doesn’t take much money or time to file in a small claims court. A judgement in your favor would add credibility to your case, whereas social media vigilantes often do just as much harm as good. That’s my personal opinion, others obviously disagree.
^^^ THIS.
And yet, one thing I have learned in life is that a great many people, maybe even the majority, just will not stand up to someone they see as being in authority. Not for themselves, not for another person, not for an animal. Maybe it is an innate personality trait. But the people who effectively do just what beowulf describes are, unfortunately, thin on the ground.
The other issue is that strong personalities select the people they will have around them. They do not select people who will take a stand. I have watched that dynamic play out in many settings.
Within a business, a social group, or a barn, the chances of a grassroots revolt are slim.
One of the biggest obstacles to change is that the target audience does not believe they are doing anything wrong. If they are fixed in that belief, the comments of others, no matter how close or how remote, are unlikely to have much impact.
Someone who is respected by the individual as having already achieved what the individual desires has the best chance of influence.
I’d just like to point out that small claims courts usually are very limited in the amount of damage in a claim that they have jurisdiction over. It will vary from state to state, but here they are limited to $3000.
Yes vineyridge, but thats not the point. The point is to have an objective ruling fom a judge. If no claim is made in court there is going to be zero dollars awarded, so why not?
That was very wise! I’ve seen it people witness people are aware yet they support because the person is winning. I am not of that breed I see I know and I cannot support. It’s not the easiest existance.
Do you have any experience in small claims court?
Also, “an objective ruling from a judge” is not the end all be all holy word. The court system is also not as straightforward as we’d like it to be.
General examples:
Not all judges are objective. Not all acts deemed devious, immoral, cruel, or otherwise “wrong” are punishable by law. Not all acts can be quantified in respect to assigning an accurate dollar value. The dollars awarded in court do not always offset one’s time, money, and other resources spent to get there. Yes, you can build court fees into your suit in some cases.
I am not saying all these examples do/would apply, and I am not arguing that seeking legal justice isn’t worth it. I am saying that it is not always super straight forward, it is not always the end all be all, it is not always something that will even thwart bad people from going on with what they are doing. Those that are manipulative enough, and have enough reach, can shake off a small court claim.
I get that you are seeking to differentiate option from fact. I’d love it if things could be black and white, fact or opinion too, but there are so many loopholes, ambiguous worded laws and clauses, so many steps. Often times, the general public is just not educated when it comes to collecting evidence and having what it takes to build a case. Which, is fine, I don’t expect any of you to be legal professionals since it is not your job.
What I am saying is, something can be clear as day, something could have happened, something could be disastrously wrong, and this can be so without a court ruling. Not everyone has time/money/resources and bit every wrong doing is punishable by law.
I’d love a black and white world, but my legal education and practices enable me to know that’s not a real world.
It is your right to believe what you’d like to believe. I understand not wanting negative dramatics or whatever in your personal life, so you have joined with a name that does not indicate your identity and refuse to disclose, but that does not exclude the possibility that you are or are not associated with EDH. So, I can’t fault anyone for thinking so given the circumstances (new user, no identity, joined just for this thread, previous houseguest instances that have been witnessed in this board). I do not believe it is personal, or an attack by other members.
I apologize for the somewhat derail, but it is a forum and conversations do turn, swerve, and boomerang around, naturally. :winkgrin:
Plus, if anyone had a lawsuit in progress, I’d hope they’d be smart enough not to talk about it.
^^^ Very well said.
For people who have gotten burned one way or another in a horse related business dealing, the legal system is often not a good option for practical recourse. It all takes time, money and energy… Cutting your losses and going forward is the most sensible option in many cases. Especially if you are already out a lot of money, and have a horse or two with problems you need to address after spending money, time and energy on a bad professional. Not pursuing legal recourse doesn’t mean there wasn’t wrongdoing, or that there isn’t proof, or that there weren’t any witnesses. It’s just not always practical.
Lots of good posts above on this, I just want to add - cases involving something as specialized as the horse industry can be tricky and frustrating. What is standard practice in the horse world frequently does not make sense to people who have no experience at all with the horse world which can lead to issues trying to get points across with a judge in a small claims situation.
I look at the simple facts in this situation.
I will start with the easiest issue, something that has been confirmed here by photos and lots of people. EDH does not think the rules regarding leashing dogs apply to her. She causes issues, it appears, at everything she goes to with her dogs running loose.
What is so hard for someone to understand that there is a rule about this and that rule applies to them too?
Does someone not being willing to follow such a simple rule think lots of other rules do not apply to them too?
The OP in this thread has proof of what they posted. It is not an opinion. It is not a witch hunt. It is facts. Even though EDH continues to say otherwise and the stuff EDH (and EDH followers) post to libel the OP seems to keep falling down when facts are presented.
Just the Facts - a bit of advice to make things easier for us. Can you please add some hard returns into your long posts? It is difficult to read such a huge block of text.
The loose dog issue is infuriating, both for fellow competitors and for horse show management. But, really, really, really, hard to enforce when volunteers are stretched thin, as they are at most events. Many events don’t have specialized assigned stabling staff, or when they do, they are trying to deal with hundreds of things at once. Additionally, it is tough to demand a fine when there is no way to confine loose dogs when they are running around. And, you have to worry about getting bit, or the animal getting injured.
I’ve found, as event staff, that rules such as no motorized vehicles on course, and no loose dogs, are far easier to enforce and make a bigger impact when you have someone who will actually seize the offending bike or dog, and refuse to return it until a fine is paid (or in the alternative, making the offending owner come to claim their dog and endure a lecture). Most places don’t have enough staff to do this, and to some degree have to be safety conscious too.
But, at an event where this is a real problem, perhaps contacting the organizer in advance and offering to serve as the event’s dog police in the area where her dogs are an issue would be an option? There would be details to be worked out, of course, but if there were real consequences to that irresponsible action, maybe someone like this would either not return or might change behavior. And in the end, everyone’s dogs would be safer, if it were really clear that the no-leash rules would be enforced.
Other than seizing the dog and not returning it, how do other events handle it?
Libby (who has been called the grumpy golf cart lady for several years, and can impound motorbikes in a flash)
Arelle - You hit the nail so very squarely on the head!!! When the whole of Area V cannot STAND you because of your embarrassing behavior at home and at horseshows - girl, it’s YOU. And furthermore, when clients, boarders, and working students choose to leave your program because they can no longer stand by and watch, they do it in the middle of the night because of your nasty temper.
I’ve never left a barn in the middle of the night in MY LIFE, but this is pretty much the only way anyone leaves Ellen’s barn. Is there really anything more to say?
I hope she moves to the East coast. All the people at USEA and ICP who have done NOTHING to help us here in Area V, since she is “out of sight, out of mind” and not their problem - YOU CAN HAVE HER. Enjoy. Let Texas know what you think when she is in your own backyard.
YES - This is why RMHP starting offering background checks on the site! (Well, honestly it was after it was noticed how many “professionals” had sex crime convictions in the past. Yuck.) Otherwise, bad checks, fraud/theft (usually of clients’ property), and DUI’s are the most common with horse trainers.
I can’t think of anyway she could come on here anonymously, but I would love to hear the experience of the trainer from the Pacific Northwest who - earlier in this thread - was known to be moving south to work with Ellen, but has already returned to the Pacific Northwest. It would be interesting to hear from another actual trainer with fresh eyes who had experienced this in person in recent months.
Can we go back to this for a hot minute? Which sponsor? And how’d you find out? Just curious…
It is on Stormy’s latest Facebook post regarding this matter. Hope that helps.
I don’t think it is a secret - John Nunn from NunnFiner commented that he will not tolerate this kind of behavior from a sponsored rider, and that he is looking into it
The beauty of sponsorship is that it is voluntary. A sponsored rider MUST be an upstanding member of society with an excellent reputation. #EDHNotSoMuch
I don’t really understand why a sponsor would waste their time with someone like EDH. Her record isn’t exactly stellar. Why not put your name behind a rider with a sterling reputation and better results? There are PLENTY to choose from.
A little bit of a sidebar from the trainwreck that is EDH…
Years ago back before the “official” leash law, WEF had dogs who learned the food court was a fine place to be and rapidly became a nuisance. So WEF staff impounded your dog if he came into the food court area unleashed and/or unattended, announced it over the PA system (description or public shaming if dog owner was known… which they usually were) and required a $100 donation to USET in order to get your dog back. Mind you $100 for most of that crowd was pocket change, but USET made out well in an Olympic year and public shaming for a good cause made show management out to be the good guy in a situation where a lot of people would otherwise get pissed (remember, this was before USEF had a rule)
