Hey everyone!
so i’ll just jump right into it. I’ve had this horse for a good 10 months, he was skinny and undermuscled and in a bad condition. we turned that around and we eventually even started to jump and he started to learn his lead changes. then, around the 8th month of having him everything has backfired on us.
He began to buck, and not small bucks, he will buck with his heels to the sky and bronc and proceed to run. This at first only happened when we asked him to canter, but eventually it began to happen when we asked him to go faster, or even do anything he didn’t want to do.
We have ruled out all the medical things, his back is fine, his saddle fits perfect, his legs are in great shape, and he’s built very nice besides the fact that he’s still recovering from the poor condition we got him in muscle wise.
We have no idea what to do. He went into training where it went better at first, but now he’s just getting mad every single time we ask him to do something that he doesn’t want - he’ll pin his ears back. round up, swish his tail and have at it.
This horse is for my daughter, who thank god hasn’t fallen off yet. but it’s getting to the point where he’s dangerous and i don’t want anyone to get hurt - including the horse!
The vet, chiropractor and a trainer are lost for words on what’s wrong with him. besides everything he’s a very very sweet horse and doesn’t make any wrong moves…except when he’s asked to do something other than walk with his head up like a camel under saddle!
please someone help us, we don’t know what to do and don’t want to sell him.
Hey everyone!
so honestly, we’re at a loss of what to do, we’re utterly confused and irritated and usually we’d never resort to this, but it has left us no other choice.
9/10 months ago we bought a new horse. he was undermuscled and totally upside down, he was also really skinny and just in bad condition. we have brought him back to health (he’s in a healthy state and his muscles have definitley changed as much as they probably can, not there’s still a lot of work to do but we’re getting there!)
since november (it’s now january) he’s been having some fun bucking, and taking off. at first we figured it was physical, so we got his saddle checked, it fit perfectly, then we got him checked out by a vet (his back, his legs, his neck ect) and he has zero health problems. we got him chiropracted (which i usually don’t believe in) and he was also in good shape! we even tried to switch him to a hackmore (he was going in a snaffle) and got his teeth floated and sheath cleaned nothing changed! it’s gotten so bad that when you ask him to trot faster, he gets pissed and will burst into a canter and try to buck!
We figured it was training, so he went into training - there was some improvement but now he’s back doing the same thing. basically what he does is he’ll give a warning, he puts his ears back flat and you can feel him round up, then he’ll swish his tail and buck (heels to the sky, no small little bucks, he’s a 16.2 hh appendix and he knows how to get up there) or he’ll bronc. now we have figured out that he does it going into the canter, or when you ask him to trot (basically if he has to do anything he doesn’t want to do
How did you happen to get this horse?
we got him from a lesson program! which is even more crazy because he was a lesson horse…! before that he was a ranch horse in montana. and then a trail horse in colorado, then the lesson program an then he came to us
When I used to work with horses like that the first thing I do is take time to observe them turned out at liberty. I want to see how the horse behaves without human interaction. I want to observe the horse walk, trot, and canter in his pasture.
Sometimes it takes a long time to see. It depends on the circumstances. A horse turned out in a group will pick up gates on their own more often than a horse turned out by itself. For horses that are alone, I’ll usually get to see a canter at turn out, feeding time, or if it’s time to come in. If I see a normal looking horse at turnout, picking up both leads and looking comfortable. Then I’ll move onto lunging in just a halter (if safe), then bridle (if safe), then fully tacked up (if safe).
The idea is to understand the nature of that particular horse. When does he buck, bolt, or whatever. Are there specific conditions that reproduce unwanted behavior in an otherwise asymptomatic animal?
I start with observation because all it takes is time and patients, and it can help in adding evidence in the process of ruling out other causes.
There are plenty of medical/physical causes for “explosive” behavior, as well as psychological causes.
If a horse owner is intent on finding an answer they must use the scientific method and rule out the possible causes systematically.
A horse like that could hypothetically have ulcers, enteroliths, lyme, uveitis, kissing spines, bad hocks, navicular syndrome, ring bone, intermittent locking stifles, SI issues, etc., etc…
If it’s behavioral than it may be an issue that can be worked with, and it might not.
It all depends of the facts, how the horse presents, and what a highly observant, well experienced horse person observes while evaluating the horse using a safe and suitable set of diagnostic criteria.
You might want to PM Mod 1 and ask to have this thread transferred over to Horse Care, as that the appropriate forum for thses kinds of questions.
Something hurts but you haven’t found out what it is
Why are you jumping a horse that is still poorly muscled?
Does he buck for the trainer or just your daughter?
no. i stated that when he was doing great and muscled well enough to be jumped, we did. don’t take me wrong - i would never do such. there’s some stupid people out there. he bucks for everyone that rides him. there is nothing physically wrong with i’m. weve done everything possible - hock injections, ulcer meds, xrays, chiropractors, acupuncture and nothing works. it’s a mental/emotional/behavioral problem.
How do you know his back is fine, and also free from kissing spines, did you x-ray?
^^^^
yes he’s been xrayed, when we first got him and when he started to have issues. nothing was found.
Ah, ok then. Good to know. Have you considered ulcers?
yeah, he’s been/being treated for ulcers, and has been since we got him. he’s also seen a chiropractor and had his hocks injected…honestly we’ve checked every single physical thing we could thing of, including saddle fit and diet, none of it has changed his behavior
Well if you honestly have xrayed everything and there are no problems, including no kissing spine, no neck arthritis, no front foot issues, teeth OK, no impacted wolf teeth. And he bucks for everyone, including the trainer. And his saddle fits perfectly and he doesn’t have ulcers. And it’s getting worse so he is unrideable.
Well then you are flat out of alternatives and there’s no magic solution from a bunch of internet strangers.
Here are your options.
Get a better vet and find the problem.
Get a better trainer.
Shoot him.
Sell him to a Rodeo bronc string.
Retire him permanently to pasture.
Obviously selling him to another riding home is not an option.
What do you know about his previous history? Was he happily in work with a show record at some point? Or was he a rescue, an upgrade, a mystery horse, fallen through the cracks, etc? If so, well, now you know why.
There are a couple similar threads to yours also currently on COTH. Maybe it’s partly also a winter thing.
BTW why did you get his hocks injected? What was the diagnosis for that?
Training changes behavior. You need a new trainer who can fix this problem. When a horse is in poor condition, he frequently is very agreeable because he does not have the energy to object to anything. Once they start feeling better, you get the “real” horse. This horse needs to go back to square one and brought through groundwork to get him responsive and so that he understands what he is being asked and any objections are nipped in the bud.
Horses learn through release of pressure. For example, to get the horse to go forward, you add leg. When the horse responds correctly (goes forward) you release the pressure (take leg off) and the horse makes that connection. Leg = forward. If you don’t release the pressure, the horse does not learn. If you release the pressure when the horse does something else, such as bucks, the horse learns the wrong response, ie. Leg = buck.
If you go through a training program correctly, you very rarely get bucking, since this bad behavior was nipped in the bud way earlier.
What Scribbler said first.
What Palm Beach said, second.
Did you ever see him ridden prior to buying him?
It is possible that none of this is true and the horse has never actually been ridden.
That is what I too was wondering, “every horse has a story”.
Maybe he was tried at all that and they eventually gave up on him, if he was also pulling that, for whatever reason he is bucking.
Then, maybe not, he was a good horse at all that previously.
Maybe he strained something and is now at times hurting?
The OP seems to have ruled that out already, extensively.
Maybe he is one of those horses that “can’t stand prosperity” as they say here.
That means, when fit and feeling very good, just bucks if given the chance.
In any case, when a horse starts bucking, we generally take some time going back to basics, do some serious longe and long line work to reinstall willingly going forward, which is what bucking is, a resistance, lack of sensible forward motion for a horse being ridden.
On an older, already trained horse, getting the horse going forward from your aids any time you ask should not take long.
You should see improvement quickly, in a few weeks, or find out if there is other making that horse buck, like sore somewhere.
So…in approximately 6 months this horse was no longer skinny and in bad condition (you said you turned that around) but he was still under muscled yet muscled enough to jump? So you started jumping + asked horse to canter and “go faster” – and by month # 8 of being “in training” you had a bucking bronco – and all the while horse was “still recovering from the poor condition” you got him in – muscle wise. Plus he walks with his head up like a camel under saddle.
IMO – given the above (your words) – you’ve totally rushed this horse = his “mental/emotional/behavioral problem” as you stated in post #3. And…there probably is a physical issue + pain issue somewhere.
How old is this horse? Do you know his history or anything about his life before you got him?
Is he walking with his head up like a camel from pain or from hyper alertness or from fear? It indicates something.
Some horses just buck. Not because of pain, or rushed training, or fear. Because they just like to.
But. In less than eight months, you took him from in terrible condition to jumping and working on lead changes…that is very, very fast. Fitness takes TIME to build. A LOT of time.
If you’d like to keep trying with this horse, it may be prudent to take him back to the beginning, and build up his fitness correctly, and slowly. Build up his training correctly, and slowly. Then see what you have. That will probably take over a year before he’s cantering.
But this horse might have wound up in that terrible condition because he just likes to buck. If he’s any good at it, he can have a pretty cushy life as a rough stock horse.
Agreed, your timeline for the kind of work you’re expecting from this horse is waaaaaay too fast.
Go back to Square One - do simple U/S work as @Simkie advises, & if the bucking does not at least diminish (as it is now habit) then you need to decide if your daughter’s safety is worth tossing the dice further.
