If she hasn’t come off it is not real bucking. I agree with others. Find a better trainer and go back to basics.
13 Likes
Yes, given the way too fast timeline he is likely muscle sore at the least. The high head carriage means he is running around upside down which is something horses do when they are upset and/or unschooled, and it also makes them body sore and stresses the lower back and hocks.
I question what kind of trainer would let you move this quickly to jump a horse, and would let you jump before you have good head position.
I also really question what kind of trainer would let a bucking problem escalate under their watch to the point the horse is dangerous to ride.
You need at the very least a new trainer and new program.
8 Likes
yeah, we saw him being ridden for half a year before we bought him. then we took him on trial for 3 weeks and contacted his old owner (he also has a brand so we’re positive he’s from montana)
Thank you so much. we’ve checked him out for soreness and he’s fine, but maybe it is just him feeling good after such a long time. thank you for the advice!
Well obviously, we do know how to train and our trainer has been very good. he knows what everything means - but he doesn’t care, he bucks as soon as you put ur leg on to ask him anything. he wasn’t trained correctly earlier, so we took him back to basics and he was doing great until now. the problem is we have the bucking issue now. every horse is different, and he decided to pick up the fun of bucking now, not earlier. and going back to basics doesn’t help whatsoever.
…the vet cleared him to jump because we had retrained him to not walk around like a llama and redid his muscling. he had a great head position, and was doing great. now he’s back to wanting to walk around hollow, so we fixed that. now, everytime you ask him to lower his head/go foreword/anything he bucks.
our trsiner didn’t let us do that. but if you had read it carefully, you would’ve picked up that he just started to buck out of nowhere. the trainer didn’t do anything wrong, as nobody knew he was gonna start going all rodeo on us.
Then I would not rule out physical problems.
Ulcers are one possibility.
Who checked your saddle? Many people do not know how to do this.
Did you have his spine xrayed? How did the vet “rule out” back problems?
Unfortunately it may take time and money to identify the issue. Trained horses don’t usually buck their riders into the rafters “just for fun.”
5 Likes
lol, okay no, i think many are understanding this wrong. he was in physically horrid shape when we got him. the first month all we did was put weight on him, and ride him walk only to get him to use his back and engage from the hind end he’s now a healthy weight. he’s always been an emotional guy, so we built it up very slowly. he learns very fast, you ask him something once and he will understand it. after half a year, the VET (multiple vets!!) cleared him for more intense work (he could already walk trot canter properly). and decided he could start jumping (and no, not 4 foot, literally like a trot pole under 18’ inches…)
so then according to you “he’s in pain somewhere” again, if you read we have done EVERYTHING to make sure he’s fine. he’s been xrayed on his legs, back and neck. he’s got shoes, he’s gotten hock injections, treated for ulcers, he’s been to the chiropractor. honestly anything you can think of - we’ve done.
hes now, after almost a year of being with us, out of no where decided he doesn’t want to do it anymore, he will put his head up and when we work on lowering it and working through his back, he disagrees and bucks. you ask him to go foreword, he bucks. (this has literally not been on anything we’ve done to him)
he was a lesson horse, a trail horse before that and before that he moved cattle once a year. he’s 15.
the only thing they told us is that he sometimes takes off when he doesn’t want to do something (sounds similar…) so we fixed that as well. but he’s back on his behavior
so now please tell me how there is something physically wrong wifh him? and how after multiple vets have cleared him for looking smazing and how he was mentally and emotionally in a great place how he was rushed? just confused wanan see ur side of this…
honestly, it defintiley is real bucking
his hocks got injected because when we he started developing this problem, we believed he might be having difficulty getting into the canter, so we decided to get them injected, and the vet agreed. (multiple vets)
he was a lesson horse who was who was on the skinnier side and was muscled upside down. he did shows, ponyclub but would occasionally take off when he didn’t want to do something. that was fixed when we got him pretty quickly though. he learns fast, he’s very smart. we’ve gotten 3 vets to look at him. honestly we all believe this is a behavioral issue. including 3 different trainers, 3 vets and a chiropractor for good measure.
lol, trust me i wouldn’t be coming here for the fun of it, it’s a last resort because nobody knows what to do anymore
It’s not out of the blue or for no reason. You have said yourself it’s when he is asked to engage his back and go forward. Lots of reasons this could happen. You at least have done X-rays. But maybe the saddle really doesn’t fit as he has changed shape. Perhaps it appears to fit when he is standing still in his more comfortable upside down static state. But maybe it doesn’t fit when he lifts his back. Sometimes we just have to listen to the horse.
Also fairly typical of SI issues considering you have ruled out kissing spines. That would also manifest as having trouble getting into the canter. Or stifles present that way. Hocks a little less so IME—horse would probably look worse at trot than canter for hocks though hocks can affect ability to do changes. As can SI and stifles.
Horses with front foot pain also do not want to go forward. They may be the most likely to have a very high head because they are trying to unload their front feet. Whereas the upside down posture puts more strain on the back and hind legs. Although it could still be back because it is a bracing posture for the epaxial muscles.
And horses with neck problems don’t want to go forward. They may also have problems with certain types of contact or resistance to bending and may also tend to be funny looking behind.
You said you treated for ulcers but did you scope to confirm they healed?
This horse is screaming at you that something thing is wrong. I’ve been there and had vets tell me the horse is fine. He wasn’t. I had to find the vet willing to keep looking. You can’t properly rehab the muscling and fitness until he is willing to try to work correctly. Sure, maybe proper fitness will go a long way, farther than medical intervention. But right now he is saying NO to this, and there has got to be a reason. The most obvious is you are asking him to work in a way that is contrary to how he has been compensating for who knows how long.
18 Likes
OP we are giving you lots of suggestions mostly focusing on the idea there is usually pain somewhere for a broke horse to start bucking.
You want to believe that you don’t need to toss anymore money at vet diagnostics because he is bucking for the fun of it.
I have no idea what the problem is, but if you dobt want to change trainers, programs, vets, then really there is no.option but to retire him.
That might indeed be the cheapest and kindest thing especially if he is a low value ex lesson horse that you got on the cheap and don’t want to dump thousands of dollars of diagnostics into him.
Buy a horse in good shape doing the job you want successfully next time.
If he does indeed find bucking fun ad you think, there is no solution.
10 Likes
If you came here for help, it doesn’t work if you think all advice is wrong. While almost everything has been said here, have the vets done blood work? My horse was girthy and spooky, was Lyme and low vitamin E. Good luck but truly, your comments about getting his head down meaning he was ready to jump tells me you might be a novice with a charismatic but unskilled trainer. If you care about the horse, talk to vet about non-structural problems (neuro, immune, Lyme, deficiencies), then at least TRY a different trainer. And be more open minded.
16 Likes
I posted on the other thread, but agree with the above. The vast majority of horses don’t buck for fun. It’s not really fun for them to have someone flopping around on their back and hanging on their mouth so they don’t come off. It’s most likely a sign of pain somewhere, or a serious fear of pain or work that is too hard.
I also agree that you probably rushed this horse into this level of work. A month of “putting weight on him” is no where near enough unless it was only 50 lbs or so. Real weight gain and muscle building is a long process - 6+ months to really just add the weight and start getting muscles back. I would think the horse could be ridden lightly after 2-3 months (minimum) but not jumping after only a few months.
I also think it’s a bit odd that your vet would go straight to injecting joints without a specific reason, not trying Adequan or a bute trial, or something to help you narrow it down. Joint injections are one of the last things I’d do for arthritic changes. So does the vet think there are significant arthritic issues?
What kind of turnout, feed, buddies does this horse have?
10 Likes
Is he resisting the bit?. Sometimes he needs to go up a level in a bit. Just has an issue with a spotted saddle horse, that would just plod along, put a gaited saddle on him and he takes off and resists the bit. Not the saddle problem as he will stand with no problem. If the saddle was uncomfortable he would have kept moving. Turns out the horse loves the saddle and the freedom of motion, and have to go to a higher level bit to settle him down.
You have already ruled out medical problems. Now I would check the tack and saddle.
It could be psychological. Psychological trauma can cause physical issues such as muscle wasting and weight loss (inferring onto horses based on humans). Have you done any research into “sustained helplessness”? It’s severe psychological damage (in horses and people) that can make a horse (or person) seem emotionally flat…which is perfect for a lesson horse. The problem is when a horse comes out of that flat behaviour (because the cause of it is removed), they can exhibit extreme behaviour that is out of context with the current request.
Your best bet (you can decide it its worth it) would be to restart the horse slowly from the beginning, avoiding any conflict behaviour triggers (such as training that encourages pushing a horse into contact). Make sure the horse always gets correctly applied negative reinforcement to all training requests (a release of the aid when the correct response or attempt is given). Far too often lesson horses get bumped in the mouth, or kicked with every stride and learn they can’t escape discomfort regardless of what they do…you have to avoid triggering that issue again.
1 Like
Not trying to be funny, but maybe you could try an animal communicator.
3 Likes
What are his living and feed situations? Have they changed since he came into your care, or winter weather hit?
If you’re still feeding him like he needs to gain weight, but he doesn’t need the calories any more, that can show up behaviorally (too many calories = too much energy).
Has his turnout situation changed? Winter and mud can curtail turnout time, and lead to an excess of energy that end up getting burned off during work time.
Double check the saddle fit while he’s working. Saddle fit can be very different on a static unmoving back and one that is trying to engage and lift into an unyielding tree.
Have you investigated any soft soft tissue injury possibilities? There are a lot of potential problems that won’t show up on an X-ray, and won’t improve with skeletal manipulation.
Best of luck with your guy.
7 Likes
So you bought a horse with a couple of major evasions–running away and inverting. And you took away those evasions. And this horse that can no longer run or giraffe started bucking–another evasion.
Horses evade for a reason. They evade because they’re in pain. They evade because the don’t UNDERSTAND. It’s how they tell us they hurt, or that they don’t get what we’re asking them to do. This horse has been shouting at the people in his life for a long time, and it doesn’t sound like anyone has listened to him.
If you’re serious about wanting help from this forum, it would be helpful if you could break out the timeline here. When you bought him, what he did, how he rode, what he knew and what he didn’t.
What you changed and when, what the response was like, how long it lasted. What happened next, what you tried next, what happened then.
Like…you tell us you injected his hocks. Why? Did he flex off on the hocks, block to the hocks, radiographs showed what exactly? Did he improve after hock injections? For how long? What happened next?
Like…he used to run away and no longer does. What did you or your trainer do to eliminate that behavior? Bigger bit? Draw reins? What?
Like…he used to invert, then he didn’t, and now he does again. What’s the chain of events there. How was he taught to go round? Are you working with a dressage instructor?
Like…you say you’ve had three vets look at him. What all has been done? Full lameness exam? What radiographs? What ultrasounds? Bone scan? Neuro exam? Bloodwork? Vit e, selenium, epm, lyme testing? Does he have PSSM? How’s he fed, what’s his living situation like?
It may be that he’s just never been trained properly and he is very, very confused by what’s being asked of him. I have a horse in my barn that had a very poor start. There was very little kindness shown to him and the answer if he wasn’t sure was force. It’s AMAZING to me just how much WORK it takes to retrain him versus just TRAINING another horse that’s a blank slate. It’s probably five to ten times the repetition, length, and breakdown of each thing into minuscule teeny little steps because he’s just SO sure something else is going to happen. So if this horse doesn’t have the foundation, A to B might not be one step, like it would with an unstarted horse…it might be TEN steps.
It may be that he’s in pain. You say that’s been ruled out, but you haven’t said how. Vets miss stuff. Vets miss stuff ALL THE TIME.
This forum is full of people who have had super complex problems with their horses and are incredibly generous with offering ideas and suggestions and their advice. We have people here who have a better eye than most vets at spotting lameness, often because they’ve been through it with their horse and had to push and advocate for a diagnosis. But you have to help us all out with more information, and by being willing to hear that perhaps YOU’VE been missing something. Even the title of this thread? No logical reason? In what little you’ve shared, there are a TON of logical reasons that this horse is bucking.
29 Likes
Pretty much everything I wanted to say has been said, but I want to add that it makes me crazy when people think “vet can’t find anything” = “there’s nothing physically wrong”. Never mind horses who can’t speak for themselves – people who can actually TALK to their doctor and explain exactly how and when something hurts can go for ages without a diagnosis. Ruling out some obvious things is great, but it does not mean that the horse doesn’t hurt – as said above, vets miss stuff, and sometimes the answer is complicated. (Not saying that this is the case here but I’ve seen a lot of people say “this saddle fits GREAT” when it clearly does not.)
Does he buck on the longe? Does he buck in turnout? How is his behaviour in the field, in the barn? Has he had bloodwork, blocks, a bute or Previcox trial?
If he was my horse, I’d scale back on the under saddle work and keep digging for a physical explanation.
16 Likes
