My horse has become a bronc. and there's no logical reason

[BeeHoney]

Bucking when asked to canter sounds like an SI issue to me. But whatever. If this horse is 15 and has a history of doing this, I think your chances of finding a solution are low. Others are correct, bucking is a lot of effort for a horse. For a 15 year old horse that has been under saddle for most of it’s life there probably is some kind of a physical issue.

[Hayburner]

You didn’t mention blood work or your deworming program.

have you had his VitE and Selenium numbers checked?

have you tried different style s of girths? Is the girth being pulled too tight?

[pheevden2]

@S1969

Then I would not rule out physical problems.

Ulcers are one possibility.

Who checked your saddle? Many people do not know how to do this.

Did you have his spine xrayed? How did the vet “rule out” back problems?

Unfortunately it may take time and money to identify the issue. Trained horses don’t usually buck their riders into the rafters “just for fun.”

he was/is treated for ulcers. we had a saddle fitter come out to check the saddle, and we had xrays of his backs made

[pheevden2]

@Nathine

Is he resisting the bit?. Sometimes he needs to go up a level in a bit. Just has an issue with a spotted saddle horse, that would just plod along, put a gaited saddle on him and he takes off and resists the bit. Not the saddle problem as he will stand with no problem. If the saddle was uncomfortable he would have kept moving. Turns out the horse loves the saddle and the freedom of motion, and have to go to a higher level bit to settle him down.

You have already ruled out medical problems. Now I would check the tack and saddle.

have checked the saddle, thank you though! it was all good

[pheevden2]

@WNT

What are his living and feed situations? Have they changed since he came into your care, or winter weather hit?

If you’re still feeding him like he needs to gain weight, but he doesn’t need the calories any more, that can show up behaviorally (too many calories = too much energy).

Has his turnout situation changed? Winter and mud can curtail turnout time, and lead to an excess of energy that end up getting burned off during work time.

Double check the saddle fit while he’s working. Saddle fit can be very different on a static unmoving back and one that is trying to engage and lift into an unyielding tree.

Have you investigated any soft soft tissue injury possibilities? There are a lot of potential problems that won’t show up on an X-ray, and won’t improve with skeletal manipulation.

Best of luck with your guy.

thank you so much
we did take his ‘weight gain’ eating schedule away, he’s not a hot horse but still gets turned out regularly, he’s in a paddock where he can have enough walking/stretching/whatever he wants space lol. nothing has really changed
wjll definitely get saddle checked again and i did not think of soft tissue issues, should get that checked out…thank you!!

[pheevden2]

@Hayburner

You didn’t mention blood work or your deworming program.

have you had his VitE and Selenium numbers checked?

have you tried different style s of girths? Is the girth being pulled too tight?

thanks for ur help!
he gets dewormed every 6/8 weeks and have not gotten that checked. have tried different girths but should do that. thank you

[pheevden2]

@BeeHoney

Bucking when asked to canter sounds like an SI issue to me. But whatever. If this horse is 15 and has a history of doing this, I think your chances of finding a solution are low. Others are correct, bucking is a lot of effort for a horse. For a 15 year old horse that has been under saddle for most of it’s life there probably is some kind of a physical issue.

see the thing is, 3 different vets have been out to do xrays/evaluate him but they can find nothing. including an SI issue

[pheevden2]

@CHT

It could be psychological. Psychological trauma can cause physical issues such as muscle wasting and weight loss (inferring onto horses based on humans). Have you done any research into “sustained helplessness”? It’s severe psychological damage (in horses and people) that can make a horse (or person) seem emotionally flat…which is perfect for a lesson horse. The problem is when a horse comes out of that flat behaviour (because the cause of it is removed), they can exhibit extreme behaviour that is out of context with the current request.

Your best bet (you can decide it its worth it) would be to restart the horse slowly from the beginning, avoiding any conflict behaviour triggers (such as training that encourages pushing a horse into contact). Make sure the horse always gets correctly applied negative reinforcement to all training requests (a release of the aid when the correct response or attempt is given). Far too often lesson horses get bumped in the mouth, or kicked with every stride and learn they can’t escape discomfort regardless of what they do…you have to avoid triggering that issue again.

this has honestly been the most helpful yet, thank you! that honestly does sound like a very reasonable option…and that’s probably something that he has gone through, will definitely consider thi

[Simkie]

@pheevden2

thanks for ur help!
he gets dewormed every 6/8 weeks and have not gotten that checked. have tried different girths but should do that. thank you

This is unlikely to be the issue, but you should familiarize yourself with the AAEP deworming guidelines. Here they are for you. Deworming every 6-8 weeks is nearly never appropriate.

https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/Guidelines/AAEPParasiteControlGuidelines.pdf

[xeroxchick]

Okay, here’s something I did as a stupid thirty year old. My horse was layed up and a guy at the barn payed my board in exchange for me riding a young QH he got at an auction (drunk bidding). I was riding that horse out through a big pasture when a group of mares ran up and he started to hump and really buck. Thing is, I was wearing these western Spurs my boyfriend gave me, think pizza cutters. Why? IDK, just was kinda enthralled with the western stuff? And I gripped that horse so tight to hold on so those pizza cutters just layed into him. In a split second I realized I was about to meet Jesus but that horse stood rock still and never bucked with me again. Ever. So there’s that. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, they need a good spanking.

[pheevden2]

@S1969

I posted on the other thread, but agree with the above. The vast majority of horses don’t buck for fun. It’s not really fun for them to have someone flopping around on their back and hanging on their mouth so they don’t come off. It’s most likely a sign of pain somewhere, or a serious fear of pain or work that is too hard.

I also agree that you probably rushed this horse into this level of work. A month of “putting weight on him” is no where near enough unless it was only 50 lbs or so. Real weight gain and muscle building is a long process - 6+ months to really just add the weight and start getting muscles back. I would think the horse could be ridden lightly after 2-3 months (minimum) but not jumping after only a few months.

I also think it’s a bit odd that your vet would go straight to injecting joints without a specific reason, not trying Adequan or a bute trial, or something to help you narrow it down. Joint injections are one of the last things I’d do for arthritic changes. So does the vet think there are significant arthritic issues?

What kind of turnout, feed, buddies does this horse have?

I’ve never said our vet jumped straight to it…that’s what others made of it…he got bute first and equiox. but nothing really changed. (drastically after a while)
our horse was not in a ‘ahused’ state, yes, he was skinny but just needed a little more weight on him to round him up. i think our vet/vets/trainers would definitely know more than enough that they wouldn’t force him to do anything he couldn’t do;)

[pheevden2]

@LilyandBaron

If you came here for help, it doesn’t work if you think all advice is wrong. While almost everything has been said here, have the vets done blood work? My horse was girthy and spooky, was Lyme and low vitamin E. Good luck but truly, your comments about getting his head down meaning he was ready to jump tells me you might be a novice with a charismatic but unskilled trainer. If you care about the horse, talk to vet about non-structural problems (neuro, immune, Lyme, deficiencies), then at least TRY a different trainer. And be more open minded.

if you or others came here to help, then nobody would be blaming us for this, as we are simply confused and trying to figure this out. i have definitley not ruled out all advice, but simply given answers as in “no, or we have already done that”. not getting his head down was our only goal. he was engaged from the hind, bending through his rib cage and all that and his muscling was better and he didn’t have a huge U neck anymore. (just figured everybody would understand, instead of me having to explain how to engage a horse and get him on the vertical…) we with a different trainer now as well, which i’m sure to have mentioned in previous comments. definitley open minded - and will get his bloodwork checked. (as we had no idea that could be affecting him.)

[pheevden2]

@xeroxchick

Okay, here’s something I did as a stupid thirty year old. My horse was layed up and a guy at the barn payed my board in exchange for me riding a young QH he got at an auction (drunk bidding). I was riding that horse out through a big pasture when a group of mares ran up and he started to hump and really buck. Thing is, I was wearing these western Spurs my boyfriend gave me, think pizza cutters. Why? IDK, just was kinda enthralled with the western stuff? And I gripped that horse so tight to hold on so those pizza cutters just layed into him. In a split second I realized I was about to meet Jesus but that horse stood rock still and never bucked with me again. Ever. So there’s that. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, they need a good spanking.

lol oh gosh!!
maybe! haha, maybe his bucking has just become a habit lol!

[pheevden2]

@IPEsq

It’s not out of the blue or for no reason. You have said yourself it’s when he is asked to engage his back and go forward. Lots of reasons this could happen. You at least have done X-rays. But maybe the saddle really doesn’t fit as he has changed shape. Perhaps it appears to fit when he is standing still in his more comfortable upside down static state. But maybe it doesn’t fit when he lifts his back. Sometimes we just have to listen to the horse.

Also fairly typical of SI issues considering you have ruled out kissing spines. That would also manifest as having trouble getting into the canter. Or stifles present that way. Hocks a little less so IME—horse would probably look worse at trot than canter for hocks though hocks can affect ability to do changes. As can SI and stifles.

Horses with front foot pain also do not want to go forward. They may be the most likely to have a very high head because they are trying to unload their front feet. Whereas the upside down posture puts more strain on the back and hind legs. Although it could still be back because it is a bracing posture for the epaxial muscles.

And horses with neck problems don’t want to go forward. They may also have problems with certain types of contact or resistance to bending and may also tend to be funny looking behind.

You said you treated for ulcers but did you scope to confirm they healed?

This horse is screaming at you that something thing is wrong. I’ve been there and had vets tell me the horse is fine. He wasn’t. I had to find the vet willing to keep looking. You can’t properly rehab the muscling and fitness until he is willing to try to work correctly. Sure, maybe proper fitness will go a long way, farther than medical intervention. But right now he is saying NO to this, and there has got to be a reason. The most obvious is you are asking him to work in a way that is contrary to how he has been compensating for who knows how long.

thank you for this advice!! what we were thinking from this thread is getting a fourth vet out. we love this horse and would do anything for him obviously. we also may believe he just doesn’t know better, as this as what he’s been doing forever and nobody’s ever taught him no.

[pheevden2]

@fargaloo

Pretty much everything I wanted to say has been said, but I want to add that it makes me crazy when people think “vet can’t find anything” = “there’s nothing physically wrong”. Never mind horses who can’t speak for themselves – people who can actually TALK to their doctor and explain exactly how and when something hurts can go for ages without a diagnosis. Ruling out some obvious things is great, but it does not mean that the horse doesn’t hurt – as said above, vets miss stuff, and sometimes the answer is complicated. (Not saying that this is the case here but I’ve seen a lot of people say “this saddle fits GREAT” when it clearly does not.)

Does he buck on the longe? Does he buck in turnout? How is his behaviour in the field, in the barn? Has he had bloodwork, blocks, a bute or Previcox trial?

If he was my horse, I’d scale back on the under saddle work and keep digging for a physical explanation.

doesn’t buck anywhere but under saddle. in the field he’s quiet, doesn’t pay much attention to other horses, when turned out only bucks when he’s crazy hot. has had a prevacid and bute trial. vets do miss stuff but after 3 vets were iust confused and unsure…

[pheevden2]

@Simkie

So you bought a horse with a couple of major evasions–running away and inverting. And you took away those evasions. And this horse that can no longer run or giraffe started bucking–another evasion.

Horses evade for a reason. They evade because they’re in pain. They evade because the don’t UNDERSTAND. It’s how they tell us they hurt, or that they don’t get what we’re asking them to do. This horse has been shouting at the people in his life for a long time, and it doesn’t sound like anyone has listened to him.

If you’re serious about wanting help from this forum, it would be helpful if you could break out the timeline here. When you bought him, what he did, how he rode, what he knew and what he didn’t.

What you changed and when, what the response was like, how long it lasted. What happened next, what you tried next, what happened then.

Like…you tell us you injected his hocks. Why? Did he flex off on the hocks, block to the hocks, radiographs showed what exactly? Did he improve after hock injections? For how long? What happened next?

Like…he used to run away and no longer does. What did you or your trainer do to eliminate that behavior? Bigger bit? Draw reins? What?

Like…he used to invert, then he didn’t, and now he does again. What’s the chain of events there. How was he taught to go round? Are you working with a dressage instructor?

Like…you say you’ve had three vets look at him. What all has been done? Full lameness exam? What radiographs? What ultrasounds? Bone scan? Neuro exam? Bloodwork? Vit e, selenium, epm, lyme testing? Does he have PSSM? How’s he fed, what’s his living situation like?

It may be that he’s just never been trained properly and he is very, very confused by what’s being asked of him. I have a horse in my barn that had a very poor start. There was very little kindness shown to him and the answer if he wasn’t sure was force. It’s AMAZING to me just how much WORK it takes to retrain him versus just TRAINING another horse that’s a blank slate. It’s probably five to ten times the repetition, length, and breakdown of each thing into minuscule teeny little steps because he’s just SO sure something else is going to happen. So if this horse doesn’t have the foundation, A to B might not be one step, like it would with an unstarted horse…it might be TEN steps.

It may be that he’s in pain. You say that’s been ruled out, but you haven’t said how. Vets miss stuff. Vets miss stuff ALL THE TIME.

This forum is full of people who have had super complex problems with their horses and are incredibly generous with offering ideas and suggestions and their advice. We have people here who have a better eye than most vets at spotting lameness, often because they’ve been through it with their horse and had to push and advocate for a diagnosis. But you have to help us all out with more information, and by being willing to hear that perhaps YOU’VE been missing something. Even the title of this thread? No logical reason? In what little you’ve shared, there are a TON of logical reasons that this horse is bucking.

read some of the other comments i’ve left. shares tons of information you might’ve missed.
by posting this i defintiely think we’ve been saying we’re missing something;)
and yeah, ofc there’s a bunch of reasons

[Simkie]

@pheevden2

read some of the other comments i’ve left. shares tons of information you might’ve missed.
by posting this i defintiely think we’ve been saying we’re missing something;)
and yeah, ofc there’s a bunch of reasons

I’ve read all of your comments. No where have you answered any of these questions, or provided a timeline. That’s what we need to help you.

@Simkie

Like…you tell us you injected his hocks. Why? Did he flex off on the hocks, block to the hocks, radiographs showed what exactly? Did he improve after hock injections? For how long? What happened next?

Like…he used to run away and no longer does. What did you or your trainer do to eliminate that behavior? Bigger bit? Draw reins? What?

Like…he used to invert, then he didn’t, and now he does again. What’s the chain of events there. How was he taught to go round? Are you working with a dressage instructor?

Like…you say you’ve had three vets look at him. What all has been done? Full lameness exam? What radiographs? What ultrasounds? Bone scan? Neuro exam? Bloodwork? Vit e, selenium, epm, lyme testing? Does he have PSSM? How’s he fed, what’s his living situation like?

Given that this is almost certainly a training issue or a veterinary issue, details about his training and vetting are important. You’ve shared very little about either.

[S1969]

@pheevden2

I’ve never said our vet jumped straight to it…that’s what others made of it…he got bute first and equiox. but nothing really changed. (drastically after a while)
our horse was not in a ‘ahused’ state, yes, he was skinny but just needed a little more weight on him to round him up. i think our vet/vets/trainers would definitely know more than enough that they wouldn’t force him to do anything he couldn’t do;)

Jeezus. No one came here to argue with you. We are responding to what you wrote.

You said:

his hocks got injected because when we he started developing this problem, we believed he might be having difficulty getting into the canter, so we decided to get them injected, and the vet agreed. (multiple vets)

Multiple vets came out and did multiple lameness exams and found…what? Did he flex off? Or was the only “symptom” the fact that he was bucking? So…if nothing changed after bute and Equioxx, I’m not sure why you would inject the hocks…

As for weight gain -
He was skinny and undermuscled and in a bad condition."

From that I think it was natural that people assumed he was in a neglected state. What was his Body Condition Score? (Approximately?) And what is it now?

[China_Doll]

post some side view pics of the horse. A lot can be told by looking at him.

[tbchick84]

I saw the words “lesson horse” and “buck”. The first idea that came to my mind was horse that was just burned out from hauling around unbalanced riders constantly catching him in the mouth and just needs some time off and eventual retraining to learn that he is going to be ridden in a more consistent manner going forward. Lesson horses can only take so much before they finally check out.