…training,
got him 10 months ago,
he gained weight with us, rebuilt his muscle
vet cleared for small tiny trot pole jumps.
started getting very good. he’s a smart horse learns quicker than most.
introducing simple lead changes probably like 8 months in as he was balanced in the canter and was controllable in the canter (lengthening/shortening stride)
obvious the horse has had great training once in his life but right before we got him he was a lesson horse, totally emotionally destroyed. also built with a huge U neck which is now (mostly) gone.
(ps, we’ve never used martingales, draw reins ect on him. most we’ve done is lunge him in the pessoa system. old owner used to even JUMP in side reins, which is so dangerous and created his U neck most likely)
bout a month ago he refused to accept the bit or extend the trot.
vet:
been treated for ulcers, he’s now clear of them but still prone to them.
been on a bute and previcox schedule to make sure he didn’t have anything going on, nothing really changed.
vet suggested lameness exam and we injected his hocks.
didnt help.
we got his back Xrayed, and no signs of any problems
didnt have his bloodwork taken though. (which i infact have commented on previous posts).
saddle got checked by saddle fitter, nothing changed
in past (6 months into us owning him) has been chiropracted, nothing wrong - just stiff which is normal changing like this.
two other vets came out did the same thing. but nothing was found
also had his teeth floated.
honestly believe something in his past is causing this. he’s also covered in nics (bless grays for showing everything)
i’m not arguing and to my knowledge nobody else is.
multiple vets came and didn’t find anything. he was good but stiff. so vet suggested hock injections. i’m also not one to go against what multiple vets suggest, so we did it. i trust vets more than internet answers (although yes vets can be wrong, and so can we.)
defintiley shoulda been more clear on him.
body condition score before we got him aprox 5?
now an 8
not sure
So you have this horse who has no clue about moving forward into the hand through his back, and you tie his mouth to his hocks with the pessoa, teaching him to duck behind the contact.
The vet came out (and did what?) and saw something (what?) that lead him or her to think the hocks were troublesome. So you injected (with what?) And then what happened?
Two other vets came out to do the same thing (what is that?)
What actual imaging has this horse had? Radiographs, ultrasound, bone scan? You x-rayed his back? Which parts? What else?
He’s been on previcox and bute (yikes, together???) with no change, but when? Did you treat for ulcers after that? With what? For how long? Why do you say this horse is ulcer prone, and how are you managing that?
He was thin at 5 and is now at 8 on the henneke scale? What? Here’s the henneke scale. Can you take a look and confirm that?
It would probably be really useful to get this horse to a GOOD dressage trainer for evaluation about what he really knows. If you post your location, people here can help guide who might be able to help you there, along with some vet suggestions.
The below are only a suggestions, and you don’t have to answer any of these questions if you don’t want to…
I feel compelled to provide you with some advice for how to post questions in a way that enables others to provide the highest quality information for you to consider.
Don’t make others guess about what you have already done and already know.
What is the age of the horse? Is the horse 10 or 30??
What is your intended use for this horse?
How are the horse’s ground manners?
Tell us what the horse is being fed, when the horse is fed, and how much. Tell us any supplements the horse is taking. Or medications the horse is on.
List it all out, in detail. Tell us everything you know about this horse’s history. Every test your vets have done, all the results and opinions of the vets.
Is the horse presenting with any signs of lameness?
Has the horse had a current fecal egg count for parasites?
How did the blood work look?
Were the x-rays preformed complete? Did they include the hooves fetlocks and hocks? How did the x-rays looks?
Were flexion tests preformed?
If possible, post pictures and preferably videos of the horse under saddle demonstrating the unwanted behavior(s).
Or at least a single confirmation photo to judge the condition of the horse by.
We (general we) need to know who rides the horse, the level of experience of all the riders, and whether the questioned behavior is specific to all riders or just one or more specific riders.
Is the horse shod? Describe the condition of the horses feet. Tell us how the horse is shod. eg… Is the horse in bar shoes?? What is the farrier’s opinion about this horse? Does the horse behave and stand well for the farrier?
Is the horse clipped? Blanketed?
Does the horse have any vices. Doe it crib, weave, stall walk, pace in the pasture, grind it’s teeth?
Is it “girthy” tacking up"? Is this a “mouthy” nippy horse?
How cold and windy is it where the horse is stabled? Does the horse go better in the summer than in the winter?
Have you ever ridding the horse in warm weather? Does weather make a difference in this issue?
If you tell us the horse was in training for this issue, what kind of training was it? Was the trainer a professional? What were their methods? What was the trainers opinion? What did the trainer say they thought the issue was? What was their recommendation for how to best resolve this issue?
Have you been correcting this bucking issue when it occurs, how do you preform that correction?
Is the horse currently in any kind of training program to resolve issue now? If so, what is that program?
Does the horse lunge? Are you or anyone else lunging the horse? Describe a lunge session and how the horse behaves while being lunged.
Where do you ride the horse. In an open field? In a ring? In an indoor? What kind of footing are you riding this horse on. Is the footing dragged to keep it fluffy, or is the footing frozen solid?
How is this horse kept, is it stabled, is it turned out 24/7, is it part of a herd or turned out with one or two other horses?
What kind of turn out is it, how big is it, how much turn out does the horse receive?
Is this horse heard bound?
What is your riding level? Describe you riding ability. How long have you been riding? Have you ever trained a horse on your own? If you train, what is your preferred discipline? Describe how you ride this horse. Describe with detail what you or an experienced rider thinks of this horse’s level of training, ability, capability, and current disposition.
Is this a horse that spooks often?
Do you ride exclusively Western or do you ride English as well? Has the horse ever been ridden english?
Can the horse do lateral work? What were the comments of an experienced ground observer who watched this horse doing ring work, and when it exhibited the bucking behavior? What did they see, what did they notice?
Is this horse a “western gaited” horse? Can it move out and do an energetic working trot if asked?
Has the horse been examined for for asymmetrical musculature? Does the horse have a hunter’s bump? Does the horse carry it’s tail to one side as it is ridden?
How does the horse move out? Does the horse ride with engagement? How would you describe the horses stride in all gates. Is the horse particularly energetic or lazy?
How would you describe the horse overall confirmation?
Most lesson horses earn their keep in the ring, round and round and often become stuck in a rut mentally and physically. They also have to put up with confusing signals from riders and learn to deal with the lack of consistency. Some react by tuning out everything but the clearest signals, and some learn multiple evasions. Many lesson kids do not have ways to shut down a buck and make it more work for the horse, so this evasion was probably pretty successful at least part of the time. It will take twice as long to make him believe it will never work again, if it had a fair success rate in the past.
He may be telling you that he is mentally burned out with being in the ring. He spent his working time in the ring as a lesson horse, then he worked to build new muscles and travel in a different way. He may need a break from his “gym routine”. If he was a ranch and trail horse, any way you could get him back on the trail and go for a walk. He might be more willing to go forward on the trail, and once he is more relaxed you could do some of the same work you do in the ring hacking out. We have one lesson pony at our barn that loves and needs trail time to get him through summer camp season, or he becomes a very inventive and naughty pony. Regular trail breaks keep him happy in his work. My OTTB puts up with ring work, but regular trail time builds his physical and mental fitness. His ring work is always more focused and softer after a trail ride or a day out hunting.
If you are sure you have ruled out pain, then start to think of ways to keep him mentally engaged.
My “internet guess” is that this horse is saying this all went too fast. It doesn’t mean you are a bad owner - smart horses with good natures are usually the ones you see it most with because they make it so easy to rush them.
I have one now & I completely understand how it can happen. They are very trainable & learn things so quickly that it seems like we can just cruise along. Until it doesn’t - they get mentally overloaded or burned out & will keep announcing it louder & louder. One thing you didn’t mention : have you tried turning him out for a few weeks or a month? We all need breaks & he’s had a heck of a lot of change in his life.
Just as an example, I bought mine a year ago. Underweight by a lot, just off the track so he had muscles, just the wrong ones, like yours. Phenomenal brain though. We just did our first canter TODAY. He isn’t hot, or fast. He just didn’t feel ready (has beautiful canter in pasture, but a rider makes everything harder). It’s interesting you mentioned not taking the bit because one of things I noticed when mine gives me the first warnings that I might be pushing is that he got resistant to bridling. This horse is a giant lovable puppy, so that got my attention.
Not saying everyone has to go THAT slow, but my general rule is that it takes a year minimum to rebuild a horse’s body-and that is just to put a base on, not to have full working muscle yet. They need time in there to “simmer” too, to absorb the new routine, to get used to new patterns - their muscles are huge, it’s a slowwww process.
hes a hunter/jumper prospect! (he can freejump up to 4’ without ever being trained…!)
his ground manners are great, although he can occasionally be hot and get a little bouncy, but nothing out of the ordinary, he still behaves great.
hes being fed 10g of bermuda in the morning and 10g of bermuda at night. then he gets lunch - fifty fifty hay pellets with sunflower seeds, electrolytes, flaxseed, ulcer medicine and farriers formula double strength.
the horse was a ranch horse, so he would herd cattle once a year. then he was sold as a trail horse in colorado where he went around everywhere on trail, then proceeded to be sold to a cattle sorting program, where they then sold him to a lesson program. then he got to us. he had whiteline disease which he got treated. vets have said he’s in perfect health, teeth look like he’s 7…legs are amazing and he passed ppe in flying colors. not sure what other tests he’s gotten.
no, he’s dewormed regularly.
havent gotten blood work done! (actually do you have more info on that?)
yes they were. they checked his spine, his legs, including all four feet, he looked amazing according to 3 different vets!
yes, he passed them easily!
i would but it won’t let me upload anything!
yes he has two front shoes, has two front leather pads because a farrier trimmed him too short once and now he’s recovering from that (already he’s fine but just making sure he’s gonna stay okay!) his feet are in great shape - healthy hooves!
he is clipped, blanketed.
no he does none of that. will only get nippy if you feed him too many treats without him working for them!
it’s always warm down here, although now it has gotten rainy lately, so we usually ride in warm weather but i don’t think the cold would have anything to do with it as he is lunged and turned out regularly, where he gets all his silly out.
yes! we were/are working on his flat work. trainer was definitley professional and very well educated! trainer thinks he’s an AMAZING horse with so much potential. we work on getting him engaged and to move through his rib cage. which he has picked up easily in walk and trot. canter is the issue and now he anticipates a canter with a big trot the trainer is unsure and right now we’re looking into it! what we do now is just take him back down and make him do it again until he does not buck. then praise, call it done when he does it right.
yes, positive reinforcement when he does it right without bucking. if he bucks, one rein stop (when he takes off) then put him right back to work and when he does it right he will be done for the day
lunges AMAZING. very well manner, can lunge without a lungeline in arena, he’s respectful and knows how to lunge. walk trot canter, occasionally pessoa system
ride horse in a uncovered arena, not sure what footing is called but it’s amazing, dragged regularly. horse is stabled, but gets out everyday to stretch his legs (not ridden everyday, but still gets out)
hes very attatched to his neighbors and in arena when he’s let loose he will pace up the side where other horses are at, but when riding you don’t notice this and he’s focused on the rider and those cues.
ive been riding for 11 years. i’ve ridden everything - western, english, saddle seat, trail, endurance, eventing, jumping, ect. i’m by no means a professional and know everything but i’m definitely not a bad rider either. prefer english, but will do anything. we ride this horse on a loose rein in an egg but happy mouth three piece french link snaffle. he goes well in it, ridden more western pleasurey in english saddle. experienced rider think he’s an amazing horse, he’s very smart and will figure thinks out easy, wants to please! capable of a lot because he has an amazing brain, teach him something once and he keeps it with him.
no, but however he is lookey, if he can’t see something then he doesn’t like it. but overall not spooky he will go anywhere you take him even tho he’s hesitant. will go through fire for someone he trusts!
ride both, horse goes both, has the problem in both…
horse can do lateral work! steps under nicely…turn on fore and hind end, leg yield ect. horse is great once he behaves. he all try his little heart out and do whatever you ask for him. when he bucks, he gets “upset”, swishes his tail rounds his back and then bucks! he just gets upset, doesn’t seem to be in pain he actually warns you when he’s going to do something he just says “no more”
not sure what u mean with western gaited, but he can definitely move out and do an extended trot!
no he has not been tested for this! but he does not have a hunters bump! no he does not carry his tail to the side
he has a great confirmation, heard this from multiple people but he’s still recovering from his past, so he still needs to work on his top line a little but he looks amazing, just like an appendix should honestly.
Since we’re grasping at straws… You mention in passing that the horse is a gray. Does he have any melanomas? They can affect the horse internally, including their brain. Or affect their eyesight, although this horse doesn’t sound like his eyes are bothering him. You might also ask the vet if a melanoma could impinge on the horse’s neck or spine. I honestly don’t know and don’t know whether a melanoma would show up on an xray.
If the horse thinks bucking is fun, he will buck at liberty.
My mare is practically airborne some days in turnout. I have photos where the other horses are all pictured in recognizable stages of canter, and my mare is pretzled in a different direction in every photo, heels straight up in the air. Yet her bucking under saddle is mild. She just seems to need to get it out of her system in turnout.
A horse that rarely bucks in turnout but bucks under saddle is telling you something is very wrong with how he feels when you ride him.
okay dude, seriously i’m not sure what ur problem with me is.
why would we ever tie his head to his hocks, seriously, in what world. do you know what that is? because it definitley does none of that sort.
you never mentioned the henneke scale, i told u wasn’t sure what you were talking about - so i rated him on 10 being perfect condition and 1 being horrid - so how about you stop attacking me please? i’m trying my best here to help a horse that we don’t know what’s wrong with and openly admitted, asking for help, not judgement good lord.
who said he was on previcox and bute at the same time? he has had both, neither helped him . that’s what i stated. (maybe ask clarifying questions?)
weve got good vets, and if by now you don’t understand - he is not in pain! we’ve checked EVERYTHING and getting out another 20 vets who will tell me the same will do nothing but waste money, because they tell us the same thing. 3 different vets from 3 different recommendations is bound to do the dang trick.
probably if i tell you what he’s on for ulcer meds - you’ll just scold us for that too? for follow our vets advice?
hes on something like ulcer guard. not sure what it’s called, a white powder that we feed him that smells very sweet. prone to ulcers because his poop smells and he’s a very nervous/emotional horse. (which makes them prone, btw)
hes gotten radiography on his back and xrays for T-14, T-15, and T16&17 but idk for sure about those two.
lord not in the mood for an internet fight with me asking ADVICE and help from someone who won’t see our point of view.
why are you so nailed on a dressage trainer? our hunter jumper trainer is very GOOD. she knows what she’s doing and has had experience with everything (including dressage!) so please, lay off. we’re trying our best here as well.
Thank you! so we knew, so we checked him but there’s still nothing wrong with him physically that we’ve discovered…do you believe it could be a behavioral or physicological issue?
in fact…yes he does! he has a bigger (nothing to bad) melanoma in his cheek/neck area, could it affect him?? he also has some in his mouth, under his tail, by his sheath.
Thank you! for sure. i do believe it is a training thing or a mental issue (since all physical is ruled out) maybe we just put him out to pasture for a month and see how he is coming back… definitley agree his muscle still needs a lot of changing:) hes come a long way but of course needs a lot more to go, things take time. will discuss this with our trainer. thank you so much!
Is he worse after he’s had a day off? Has anyone considered PSSM? The definitive testing is either a blood test or muscle biopsy, depending on the type, but sometimes it’s worth trying a high fat low NSC diet. and seeing if things improve.
I agree with this. I also have a horse that has impressive bucks at liberty, but not under saddle. In the winter I free longe him about once a week in our longing hall/covered round arena to get his bucks out since turnout is more limited/footing is questionable outside. To me, that is a horse feeling good. If he were quiet during his one “fun session” a week but bucking under saddle, that indicates a horse that isn’t having a good time.
OP, you cannot say this horse is not in pain and that you’ve done everything, because that is simply not the case. I am not being snarky, but it’s true. You’ve done some mild diagnostics, but there is so much more, and clearly still something wrong with the horse. If it were me, I’d probably go to a clinic. There are more tools and vets available there. Mobile vets can only do so much with their equipment, and I find vets at the clinic to be a bit more ambitious…I don’t know if that is the right word. We can consider neck pain (x-ray), hoof pain, melanoma related issues, SI issues, and so on.
For the heck of it, have you tried to ride the horse in different saddles? Not all saddle fitters are created equal and not all horses read the book on saddle fitting. Some like a saddle slightly wide, some prefer a certain girth material, etc.
Regarding the melanoma, if there is one in the cheek/throat area, how big is it internally? It may hurt to bend through that area, or it may even cut off air supply depending in its position and flex of the horse. Just something else to consider.
