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My horse has become a bronc. and there's no logical reason

Horse Care
#81

This helps a lot. Now I can begin to “know” your horse better.

I didn’t see any info on whether this horse bucks with all riders or just particular riders?
Did the horse come wearing front pads, or did your fairer put them on recently?

I’ve certainly worked with a few horses that seem similar to your boy. here are some of my thoughts.

What the other posters said about horses with “fried minds” could certainly be the case with your horse. Sometimes we call that a horse that’s become “soured”. But I think there’s still some things that ought to be ruled out before putting your boy out to pasture for a year of “time off”.

The first thing I’d like to do is try to define this horses issue as narrowly as we can, so correct me if I’m wrong.

We have a horse who is an otherwise “normal” healthy well behaved 15 y/o ex lesson horse who lunges, has good ground manners, no apparent lameness issues, and no notable vices of any kind except for the bucking.

This horse is ridden primarily in english tack, performing flat work, in an outdoor ring with decent footing. Adjacent to the outdoor ring there are pastures where other horses are turned out while the horse is being asked to work. He is sometimes let loose in the ring, and will pace the fence on the side of the ring where the other horses are turned out.

The horse is not one with a severe spooking problem, but is one that does look, becomes distracted at things by the side of the ring, and is more bothered by things that are hidden behind other objects.

The main issue this horse is having concerns bucking while under saddle. The horse is generally well mannered under saddle. The bucking issue occurs when the horse is either being asked to pick up the canter, or is anticipating to be asked to pick up a canter.

?? The bucking occurs whether the horse is traveling to the left or to the right??. The horse will pick up both it’s left and right canter leads??. Which lead the horse is anticipating has no relation to the bucking issue??

Before the horse bucks, he will get a hump in his back, he then bolts into a canter, lowers his head, and begins bucking. the rider uses a one rein stop (pulley rein) to regain control, and then immediately puts the horse back to work.

Questions…

This horse is only ridden in this one outdoor ring??

This horse only bucks in this one outdoor ring??

When you said this horse “went into training”. Did the horse go to the trainers barn, or did the trainer come to you, and did the trainer work the horse in this same outdoor ring?? Did the horse buck at the trainers barn? Have you or any one ever ridden this horse in another location where he’s bucked? Or does he only buck in your ring?

Does this horse ever “suck back”??? Sucking back is a term used to describe a horse that becomes unwilling to move forward off of the riders leg, acts lazy, moves with low energy. It’s considered a form of evasion.

Do you ever ride this horse in the ring with the company of another horse and rider in the same ring? If yes does the bucking behavior remain the same??

Pending clarification, here are a few further thoughts…

Please note that I don’t know your abilities, so take everything I say in an informal general information context only. I am in no way saying you have to follow any of the suggestions I provide. I want you to be safe and never do anything that might put you at risk of harm. Please ask your trainer or other horse professional who personally knows both you and your horse if you have and doubts about the appropriateness of anything I might suggest

You could try not letting the horse loose in the outdoor ring. Some horses build strong associative ties between specific locations and behaviors. It is common that many people do let their horse out into well fenced rings to let their horse “free lunge” and expel energy. But for certain horses that can be a not so great idea, especially one that bucks in the ring, and bucks in the ring under saddle.

I’ve known certain horses who will react to other horses that they can see turned out while they are working in a ring. A typical example might be, I am working a horse in an outdoor ring, and horses in an adjacent pasture begin to goof off and play halter tag and kick and play. Horse under saddle notices the fun going on, and in a fit of excitement forgets his duty to his rider and expresses his desire that he rather be out playing with his buds. With such a horse I’ll change the training schedule and ride only when other horses are not tuned out. I do that until I get the primary issue under control.

I’m inclined to suggest completely omitting canter work from this horses program for the time being…

I follow a philosophy of training where when I have a horse that gets stuck on an issue, I go back and work on what the horse can do well. I think it’s better to remove all the negativity from the horses training experience for a while. Lower the horse stress levels by backing off the challenging stuff, and just work on what you know they can do without fuss. It’s a way of rebuilding the horse/rider relationship, and repairing any trust issues the horse might have developed from bad experiences it may have had being ridden in the past. With some horses I’ll back it up all the way to lunging and doing only basic ground work for a time.

So with that in mind. Consider changing the training program to doing something like basic walk trot beginner dressage patterns. Keep the contact simple and avoid trying to accomplish much in the way of “working” engagement. See if you can find a level where you can complete a simple walk trot ride with no bolting or bucking. If you’re able to reach several non-eventful rides in a row. add some trot poles into the pattern to try to make the work a little more interesting without pushing his mind past that explosive threshold.

If all goes well, and you can reach a point where your horse is a walk trot rock star. Then I’d suggest beginning to alternate a lunging under saddle lesson one day, with riding walk trot under saddle lesson the next. You say he lunges without issue, so get him to pick up that canter on the lunge line using your voice, and with no bucking involved.

Once the timing feels right… One day after finishing the lunge lesson, back him. go right back to where you were lunging him, and ask him for the canter with your voice. See if you can get the canter out of him with as little fuss and bother as possible. If you can reach that stage, that’s great. Then go back to your under saddle walk trot pattern, and add a 10 or 20 meter circle right where you lunge him. As for the canter on that circle. See if you can get a calm transition with no fuss.

If you get the canter keep it short and end on a positive note

6 Likes
#82

The fact that your vet has not done bloodwork tells me they are not very thorough. The fact that your vet has not suggested to X-ray the neck tells me they are not very thorough. The fact that your vet has not considered that melanomas could be causing a pain issue, especially in the mouth and cheek area, tells me they are not very thorough. The fact that your vet sees nothing wrong with deworming every 6-8 weeks tells me a lot… I do not know any vet that would recommend that schedule especially with out doing fecals.

I would do bloodwork (including Lyme) and xrays of his neck to start, in addition to taking a careful look at the melanomas to see if they could be causing any pain or interference with the bit or your tack. There are SO many other physical issues that clearly have not been considered or vetted for.

Where are you located? Perhaps someone can recommend a vet who is actually decent. You need a vet who can take a methodical and collaborative approach.

18 Likes
#83

OK “good but stiff” is not an actual diagnosis. “Stiff” is not “ok”. It is “finding something” in a lameness exam…probably arthritic changes, which might be helped with joint injections, but sometimes not. My guess is that he’s not actually good . My guess is that there may be some significant issues in hocks and/or stifles, which isn’t uncommon at 15. But certainly some 15 year olds are in far better shape than others. I have a retired 15 year old; she had some injuries prior to our buying her that ended up deteriorating and she really isn’t sound to ride.

I also agree that his neck could be an issue if he is ewe-necked (or “was” ewe-necked.). If he really is built with a ewe-neck you can’t fix that. If he’s just undermuscled and has “the appearance” of a ewe-neck you may be able to improve it. Forcing him to carry his head differently than his conformation allows could be a problem. You can’t fix conformation - you work around it or you choose a different horse.

At this point I would be trailing to a large clinic for a final diagnosis and/or I’d be thinking about retiring this horse and looking for another. It sounds like you’ve probably spent more in diagnostics and training than the horse could possibly have cost - and since it already has serious issues plus melanomas, it might make more sense to cut your losses and let it enjoy a retirement.

8 Likes
#84

I’m asking clarifying questions. If you can answer them, instead of getting defensive, it will go a really long way to providing useful advice. You’ve told us very little about what these vets have actually done… You’ve radiographed a small portion of the thoracic spine. That’s it? You ruled out SI problems with no radiographs or ultrasound of that area? How did you decide to inject the hocks?

Have you looked at the way a pessoa is constructed? The lines go from the bit to the hocks. Every time the horse steps, it yanks on the mouth. It’s very good at teaching the horse to duck behind the contact and look “round.” When you have a horse that’s evading by running and inverting, and you teach it to duck instead, it’s no surprise it starts bucking. Predictable, even. It’s tough for a horse to buck when it’s running around like a giraffe…but dead easy if they’re ducking behind the contact.

​If his manure smells (sour, acidic?) that’s likely hind gut ulcers, not gastric ulcers. They’re treated differently, and the treatment for gastric ulcers can actually make hind gut ulcers worse. So what are you using? Equishure or Succeed are the general go tos for the hind gut.
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Your vets have not suggested blood work. They’ve never brought up the melanomas or treatment options for those. They’ve not done a neuro exam. They’ve radiographed or otherwise imaged very little of this horse. They’ve not brought up his concerning deworming regime. It’s not clear if this horse had EVER even had a full lameness workup. Either your vets are missing big things, or you’ve never asked them for more than very specific things (inject the hocks, radiograph this part of the back.)

The trainer you’re with is struggling with this horse, which is why you’re here. Right? Another pair of eyes is never a bad thing. A good dressage trainer will provide very valuable insight about how this horse is working from behind, coming over his back, and into the hand, along with how evenly he’s working and developing. A good trainer should also help guide and direct the vet work, and it sounds like you’ve not been getting that from your current person.

With what you’ve shared, there are huge, huge holes in the vetting here. If you tell us where you are, people here can help with a recommendation of a vet who can help. Haul the horse to a large referral center–like a university vet school–and ask them for a full lameness workup, and let them do the whole thing. They’ll walk and trot the horse on pavement, in straight lines and circles, to see where he might be uneven. Then they’ll flex his limbs to see if he’s more sore after. Once they’ve identified problem areas, they’ll inject anesthetic into those areas to numb them, to see if he goes sounder. If he does, yay, you’ve found the problem–time for radiographs or ultrasounds to see exactly what’s wrong. Then you can come up with a treatment plan. If they’re not able to pinpoint the problem, they might suggest a bone scan, which would certainly be useful. They’ll also have a farrier on staff to evaluate his feet and the way he’s shod. They’ll do bloodwork. They’ll do a neuro exam, which a specific set of tests to check for neurological problems. That should be the next step: haul the horse to the large referral center in your area. Do full lameness workup, with flexions, blocks and radiographs/ultrasounds. Do a neuro exam. Do some blood work. All of those things.

Did you do a pre purchase exam on this horse? What all did it entail if you did?

15 Likes
#85

I’d agree with the poster above who said that you have not ruled out all physical causes. You (and your vets) have ruled out some of the easier possibilities. And that’s great, because that’s exactly what you’d want as a first step to understanding what might be going on here.

So this is a 15 year old horse who obviously was being ridden before you got him; he was a school horse who occasionally bolted but otherwise seemed to do what was asked.

He was a little underweight when you got him (btw the Henneke scale is pretty standard for the evaluation of a horse’s condition), but he put the weight back on, and you have decreased his food to maintain his current physical state.

He’s stopped bolting, and for a while (?) he was going well under-saddle (?) Is that right?

But then in the past month (?), 2 months (?), he started to buck. And not just little crow-hops. And there was no change in equipment, turn-out, feed schedule, riding schedule, significant uptick in what you were asking him to do under-saddle, is that right?

This history screams pain. Horses don’t start to buck for no reason out of the blue.

If you’ve already had 3 vets involved, you need a fourth. And you should probably consider trailering the horse to a clinic to have a full work-up. The sarcoid should be investigated as part of this.

Good luck.

12 Likes
#86

Well, the melanoma information would have been useful… That’s a potentially pretty big deal.

14 Likes
#87

I agree with the melanomas and their location you should probably haul to a clinic where vets with different specialties can look at him. Although a full lameness workup on the farm would still be a good next step.

Have the soft tissue structures in the legs been palpated? Hoof testers? You’ve already said the neck, most of the spine, legs, feet and SI area have not been imaged. Has anything been blocked? Nerve blocks are helpful not only in viewing changes with visible lameness but also with behavior. Such as, if we block this stifle, does he move better? If we block the front feet, now how is he with rider weight?

Has the saddle fitter watched him move in tack?

There are so many other places to look for a physical issue than what you’ve done. Melanomas on the throat/cheek and in the mouth could certainly impact how he feels about contact. Jumping in side reins and who knows what else in his past could have caused damage that you need better trained eyes and hands and imaging to find.

It it took me finding the right vet for my horse. He developed a lot of small compensation issues and mostly behavioral issues. He flexed fine, blocks didn’t help, bloodwork all was clean, and eventually my primary sports vets at the time concluded he just needed a cowboy. But I said, ok then why is his back a rock? And why every other time he has exhibited similar behavior and we found pain and treated it was it like a light switch turning off the behavior? Sure, the behavior can escalate. You can run into long lasting problems there (and I have) when it takes you a long time to get a handle on the pain. Horses don’t have a good concept of time but they have excellent memories. They remember pain from years ago. They remember pain from yesterday. They are good at forming associations—this is how we train them. They also can remember for a long time an association they made of rider = pain. This can persist even after the pain is gone.

You I have a history of behavior issues, physical issues (incorrect muscling is a physical issue that puts strain on the body), and training issues. Yet horse was improving for a time until it changed dramatically for the worse. The horse is telling you something and if he never bucks on the longe or in turnout he is not telling you bucking is fun. Mine likes to buck. He will buck on the longe but is learning that the longe is about work not about fun. He bucks a lot in turnout. He bucks after a big spook the majority of the time. But when he bucked persistently in canter under saddle in a very planting of the front feet, sucking back kind of way, it meant something hurt. Once, he grew and the saddle didn’t fit right anymore. Another time, turns out his SI was sore. Injected the SI and the bucking stopped completely.

As I said before, there could be other reasons. We can only guess at this point because you have images very little, done no bloodwork, don’t have a vet’s opinion on the melanomas, haven’t blocked anything, etc.

We could help you narrow down places to look with more information. But the best would be to get a full workup from vets with all the tools at their disposal such as in a clinic. They will go over the horse very carefully and then provide recommendations for where they would do more diagnostics and/or treatment. It does not appear that the vets you have used so far have done this. I’d also seriously consider saddle fit if the horse’s weight and condition has changed so much.

5 Likes
#88

Ditto on the saddle fit. If the saddle was fit to him when he was underweight and under-muscled, it is likely way too tight/narrow for him now.

3 Likes
#89

I think it’s pain or at least discomfort in your case.

OP, I think you are in a difficult position. You bought a broken down lesson horse getting moved on from a program where he wasn’t quite predictable enough, hoping he would be a nice safe first horse. I expect he was cheap. At a certain point lesson programs want to move out horses with bad melanoma, especially if they suspect the melanomas are manifesting internally.

Lesson programs also like to move out horses that may require expensive joint maintenance soon.

You probably didn’t do a PPE and took him on faith.

You don’t know what you don’t know.

Not knowing the Henneke scale of horse condition is a minor thing, but it points to the fact that runs through the rest of your posts, that you are not experienced in horse cars and evaluating condition. Lack of skill in horse care is common in anyone who has basically grown up inside a full board full training program where you don’t do the work and decisions yourself.

It isn’t something to be ashamed or defensive about but rather to drop your defences and learn from people who have long term hands-on experience.

If you really want to pursue a solution here, you are going to need to start reading up on things further than one chat board. You are going to need to become systematic. And you are going to have to realize that no one is going to be more invested in solving the problem than you are.

Your trainer and your vet, or perhaps another trainer and another vet, might be part of that solution. But you cannot just go to them, say help me!, and purchase a solution.

Fixing a problem horse is like fixing a problem child or dog. The responsible adult has to do the work, advocate, discover a solution.

Fixing a problem horse is not like fixing a car, where the right mechanic and body shop can make it perfect with only a credit card from you.

10 Likes
#90

hi again! thank you!

the horse came wearing front shoes and the farrier added pads a few months ago.

this horse bucks with all riders

he’s let loose in a different arena. then we ride him, the main arena we ride him is further away from horses so that we don’t have to see them playing around in the field so there are no distractions under saddle

he bucks going both ways

the horse is st the trainers barn and he behaves the same at different places as well.

fheres are multiple arena this horse gets ridden. in and he does it in every one of them

no he never sucks back, he’s a very high energy horse (half thoroughbred- 16.2 hand appendix)

when there are other horses in the ring he still does it

#91

Good Morning, I’m bran new to this forum. I saw a post yesterday about a young 3 year old horse (I think that was the age) that had been rescued and the owner was asking questions about valerian root and whether it would be harmful. Can’t find the original post but was wanting to suggest valerian therapeutic essential oil and have the horse smell it instead of having the horse eat it. If I’m posting this incorrectly please excuse me because I’ve never done this before.

#92

Well, its out of topic for this thread. But you can start a new thread.

Be warned though that while scientifically minded people realize there are active ingredients in many herbs (but level and quality is variable), we tend to put sniffing oils in the same category as homeopathy.

Potentially useful placebo on susceptible humans.

Bunk for animals.

4 Likes
#93

he’s gotten xrays and radiography of his back, i’m not sure what sections , but his SI is not a problem because that’s what the vet checked as well (not sure what u call it).

he passed his pre purchase exam perfectly, vet thought he was a 7 year old, he flexed, blocked out certain areas, got xrays of his fetlocks and legs. and then the basic other parts of a ppe.

the melanomas we have discussed with the vets, they all claim that it is very very common in greys and that it doesn’t affect them (and like how it affects humans) and that it’s nkt bothering him - they’re not open, or oozing getting bigger or smaller ect - besides that there’s not much you can do about them

when this problem started we did do a full lameness exam and the vet found something in his hocks that brought him to believe thy should be injected (i believe just his difficulty with picking up the canter )

have not gotten neuro exam or bloodwork - what could bloodwork mean that he could be bucking? (like what could be wrong with his blood that leads to bucking?)

the pessoa system is designed to build top line. it’s a useful tool if you use it right - also not necessarily does the horse duck behind the vertical. that differentiates by how tight you put it, and dear lord, that’s not happening. he has room to move his body up as he desires in ours, but it encourages him to use his back.
hes not running around like a giraffe anymore - that’s what we’ve worked oh so bloody hard on to fix. he’s engaging his hind end, moving through his rib cage, stepping under, on the vertical, can stretch out ect ect. the only time he installs llama mode is when you ask him to do something that he just doesn’t like - ask him to do a turn on the forehand? llama mode

for his ulcers we’ll check what we use, i’m unsure so i’ll check when we go out today - idk what it’s called, but its good for what he needs

#94

okay, no.

first off, he wasn’t cheap, but he also wasn’t 10,000 dollars.
we did do a ppe. and he passed in flying colors. he was in great condition.

getting defensive because you guys assume i don’t know anything. i’ve dealt with many different horses, ridden all kinds of horses, owned different kinds of horses.

I know what to do with a vet, im not stupid - and in fact I come to them with a problem, suggest what i think may b wrong (and my trainer) and then the vet checks it.

I don’t know why ur assume i come from a lesson program myself? because if anything that’s invalid…?

Ive read books, done research, switched trainers, switched vets, figured out with the things I thought would be bothering him. and nothing has helped so excuse me for trying to come on here and look at things i need help with? hell, i’ve admitted certain things that i didn’t know like his bloodwork could be affecting this? so please, feel free to give me advice, but if i say that i have done something - then don’t call me out for being an idiot.

#95

thank you! will get them checked again

#96

Here is where I might see a resistance under saddle as learned behavior.

Big healthy young green horse is being ridden by a green rider without adequate trainer supervision.

Rider is clumsy, ineffective, or contradictory and starts a fight with horse they can’t win. Horse learns to balk, rear, buck etc. Horse learns to fight and win.

If I m looking at an older horse with physical deficits, conformation flaws, melanomas, injected hocks, poor muscling that has done his time in the trenches of a lesson program with only minor outbursts? And then sold on cheap to a bargain hunting parent with no PPE (this being how I read the thread so far)?

The learned behavior I would expect from a used up broken down lesson horse would be resistance to move forward and resistance to take contact with the bit. I would not expect bucking. That takes too much energy.

I would absolutely be looking at pain here in a case of sudden onset bucking. It may be intermittent and it may be where you don’t expect it.

Honestly vets rise to the level of information and engagement of the owner (if the owner is actually present for the appointments). If the owner comes across as disengaged, poorly informed, unwilling to spend, and looking for a cheap fix, the vet cannot and will not do a full job. You need to be an exceptional client to get exceptional care, meaning you need to be self educated enough to participate intligently in the diagnostic journey.

2 Likes
#97

Thank you so much for this!:slight_smile: I will definitely get a saddle fitter out that will see how he moves under saddle again!
Ive got the SI checked and they said it looked fine, but i guess it won’t hurt anything but our wallet to check again, lol!

The vet claimed that the melanoma should not cause problems, but it wouldn’t hurt to get someone who is specialized in that out.

weve got the full lameness exam and he passed, he also got nerve blocking’s but nothing really seemed to change.

#98

well you might want to reread the thread then, including what i wrote to you;)

and no where have i EVER said we are looking for a cheap fix you know, if you couldn’t tell by all the things we’ve alrsady done for him. educate urself on this thread and things i’ve said before

#99

You can’t rule out everything physical. Especially from the limited diagnostics you’ve had (I know they don’t feel limited, but in the scope of things they are :frowning: ) If you have the funds I would take him in to a vet hospital and have them do a bone scan, which should give you a lot more info than eyes on the ground.

I had a similar issue with a former horse. Bucking issue that was out of the blue and clearly pain/physical problem. Also had 3 vets who had no clue and suggested the bone scan. Just because a vet can’t find a problem, doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

OP where are you located? Just general area so more relevant suggestions (vet, trainer) can be made if needed. Also, do you have a recent video of the horse undersaddle?
Thanks.

6 Likes
#100

Thank you! this behavior started when asking for canter.
Probably will do so if trainer doesn’t see anything out of the ordinary

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