[QUOTE=SaratogaTB;8965940]
I’ve been through a lot of what you describe and I can honestly tell you that you need the right trainer to guide you through this. Sam has your number. He knows what it takes to make sure he doesn’t have to do much. My first OTTB had a few tricks up his sleeve too and when I finally found a trainer that taught me to be in charge, push back, and make him behave, our world changed. She had to get on him many times and show me what needed to be done, and it worked. I know how you are feeling, but its time to get the experts to help and have a plan of action. I started taking my OTTB to my trainers farm and that’s where we got a lot of confidence, in a new place where he could try pulling his shenanigans and I had my trainer right there if needed. He finally realized Mom really WAS the boss and things went well after that. You need to decide you want to and WILL do that, otherwise this will just continue I’m afraid. And let me tell you, even now, I fake it sometimes. I let him believe from my body language that I’m fearless, when I know deep down I’m not. But each time that happens I actually am a bit more confident, so it’s working. And he respects me. Good luck to you! Now go find some help…[/QUOTE]
My trainer has helped me. I’ve had A LOT during my five years and the one I have now is by far the best. But the problem is this: all my lessons are at home, so of course he’s going to be chilled. Since I live in a suburban area, there aren’t many places to ride.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965900]
My trainer’s husband breaks in horses. Sam went to his property to get remouthed by another guy, so the husband knows what he’s doing. I’ve done groundwork with Sam a little bit, but definitely not as much as should and not enough. I’ve tried the whole desensitising thing with him, but not enough. I do it a little bit, like, before I ride in the arena I walk around beside him for a lap to let him look for anything odd. After doing that, he does nothing wrong. Sam is very manipulative. He looks calm most of the time but you don’t know until you get on.
But I don’t do enough groundwork as I should.[/QUOTE]
Bolding that just because that is an example of something to improve on. “Letting him look at anything odd” is not taking control of the situation. It is you letting him decide how the day is going to go. If you learn good ground work skills, then you take him in the arena and you put him to work (on foot). It doesn’t have to be “mean” or “harsh” but it does say “hey, we are in working mode. I am here. Pay attention to me. Look where I tell you to look or look at me. Move this way. Move that way.” Whatever.
It starts with the smallest thing but you are not ready yet to see it. If you want to learn, you can.
[QUOTE=kcmel;8965944]
I have a young horse that is wonderful at home, and can be excellent at shows. But he is still unpredictable. He either wins or get eliminated lol!
I have never been on his back off my property. He is a very nice horse with a lot of potential, so for now I let the pros compete him (either his event or dressage trainer). We are hoping his naughtiness is baby horse stuff, and he will grow out of it (he has gotten MUCH better). The plan is for him to be my LL eventer, not a horse a pro is going to take up the levels.
I realize my situation is different from yours (I have another horse I compete, so I don’t mind not competing the baby). But I would still let a pro deal with this problem, especially since it sounds like your confidence is already taken a hit.[/QUOTE]
Oh, you have no idea how hard my confidence has been hit (or maybe you do; I’m going to assume that you do). Perhaps I need to convince some confident riders to take him around.
That’s the most frustrating thing about this, that my dad doesn’t understand. I’ve told him time and time again that I need to go slow with Sam and he still tries to rush me. You have no idea how much I scream into my pillow about how annoyed I get about this.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8965954]
Bolding that just because that is an example of something to improve on. “Letting him look at anything odd” is not taking control of the situation. It is you letting him decide how the day is going to go. If you learn good ground work skills, then you take him in the arena and you put him to work (on foot). It doesn’t have to be “mean” or “harsh” but it does say “hey, we are in working mode. I am here. Pay attention to me. Look where I tell you to look or look at me. Move this way. Move that way.” Whatever.
It starts with the smallest thing but you are not ready yet to see it. If you want to learn, you can.[/QUOTE]
When I don’t do that before I ride, he’s frisky. He spooks at everything. I am always aware of my surroundings when I ride. I sort of turn his head in when I ride so he can’t see what’s outside of the arena (it’s surrounded with greenery and a small paddock-like area that belongs to no one).
Australia doesn’t matter, care and training of horses is pretty much the same everywhere.
Nothing wrong with the horse or you but he is not suitable for the living situation you can offer him. There’s things you need to know to deal with him and it doesn’t sound like you have enough access to those who can teach you. Plus you are a bit scared of him, which is sensible given you don’t have the tools to work with him and fill the holes in his training. Groundwork is always great but the cultish marketing isn’t and it often doesn’t translate to working from the saddle. Plus, green rider on green horse equals black and blue. Somebody needs to know how to do it, if the rider doesn’t know and the horse doesn’t know? Who teaches?
Hes not bad, he’s no nag but you just are not a match for each other.
I think if your trainer and your Dad refuse to consider selling him? They need to ride and train him or at least offer you far more help then you are getting now. Things like more regular lessons and help learning to properly lunge, a stronger rider teaching him to relax, more exposure to new situations. If you can’t do these things, I don’t see a solution here. Not fair to you or the horse.
I talk to him a lot as well when I ride. Like, I tell him to calm and stuff when I feel like he’s going to do something. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn’t. I mean, I know he can hear me because his ears flick back.
[QUOTE=findeight;8965962]
Australia doesn’t matter, care and training of horses is pretty much the same everywhere.
Nothing wrong with the horse or you but he is not suitable for the living situation you can offer him. There’s things you need to know to deal with him and it doesn’t sound like you have enough access to those who can teach you. Plus you are a bit scared of him, which is sensible given you don’t have the tools to work with him and fill the holes in his training. Groundwork is always great but the cultish marketing isn’t and it often doesn’t translate to working from the saddle. Plus, green rider on green horse equals black and blue. Somebody needs to know how to do it, if the rider doesn’t know and the horse doesn’t know? Who teaches?
Hes not bad, he’s no nag but you just are not a match for each other.
I think if your trainer and your Dad refuse to consider selling him? They need to ride and train him or at least offer you far more help then you are getting now. Things like more regular lessons and help learning to properly lunge, a stronger rider teaching him to relax, more exposure to new situations. If you can’t do these things, I don’t see a solution here. Not fair to you or the horse.[/QUOTE]
Someone was asking me where I was from and I replied.
Like I said, he’s not bad all the time. We’ve competed a bit and he didn’t do anything wrong. My first hack I was with my sister and we were in the same class every time. But if we were to do that all the time, separating them for other things makes the anxiety away from each other worse.
I do need more lessons and the tools to help him, I agree with that. And I’m aware that it’s not fair on me or Sam that this is happening, but in my parents eyes (especially my dad) keeping him is more important.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965965]
I talk to him a lot as well when I ride. Like, I tell him to calm and stuff when I feel like he’s going to do something. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn’t. I mean, I know he can hear me because his ears flick back.[/QUOTE]
You could be confusing him about what he’s supposed to do and/or could take the softer voice as a reward when he hasn’t done anything to merit one. Clear expectations on his part and your consistent reactions to praise or correct his behavior can help him learn what he’s supposed to do. He doesn’t understand what you say, only the tone of voice.
How often do you ride in general and how often do you ride with the trainer?
Stop setting this horse up for failure. If you can’t do things right, don’t do them at all. You need to take him places where he doesn’t have the pressure of being ridden over and over if you ever want him to be comfortable going places. Competing him is dangerous and bad horsemanship. If your parents don’t care if you get hurt you need to protect yourself by staying home.
[QUOTE=findeight;8965988]
You could be confusing him about what he’s supposed to do and/or could take the softer voice as a reward when he hasn’t done anything to merit one. Clear expectations on his part and your consistent reactions to praise or correct his behavior can help him learn what he’s supposed to do. He doesn’t understand what you say, only the tone of voice.
How often do you ride in general and how often do you ride with the trainer?[/QUOTE]
I try not to confuse him. When he does something wrong like shy away, I use a harsher voice. When he’s being good, I use a soothing and rewarding voice. When I feel like he’s going to spook, I tend to balance the two.
I ride as much as I can. When I was at uni it was three or four days a week. Now that I’m on holidays, I ride five days a week. I ride with my trainer any time she can. Because she has two properties, she spends more time up at her second property, so when she does come down everyone in the stable scrambles to get a lesson with her, me included. So it’s once about fortnight.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;8965994]
Stop setting this horse up for failure. If you can’t do things right, don’t do them at all. You need to take him places where he doesn’t have the pressure of being ridden all the time if you ever want him to be comfortable going places. Competing him is dangerous and bad horsemanship. If your parents don’t care if you get hurt you need to protect yourself by staying home.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t competed for a year now. I have been staying at home trying to work on our issues.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965998]
I try not to confuse him. When he does something wrong like shy away, I use a harsher voice. When he’s being good, I use a soothing and rewarding voice. When I feel like he’s going to spook, I tend to balance the two.
I ride as much as I can. When I was at uni it was three or four days a week. Now that I’m on holidays, I ride five days a week. I ride with my trainer any time she can. Because she has two properties, she spends more time up at her second property, so when she does come down everyone in the stable scrambles to get a lesson with her, me included. So it’s once about fortnight.[/QUOTE]
So this is part of you not quite understanding what is happening for your horse. When you are walking him around the arena, that is not training, that is not desensitizing. That is just walking around. There are ways to train horses to not be so spooky at things and to desensitize them to their surroundings. There are a lot of things on the internet to show how to do it. But it’s purposeful, not just walking out before a ride.
When he shies and you use a harsh voice, you’re not punishing him. He’s just associating bad things with more bad things. There’s nothing that he can do right in that situation. You haven’t shown him how to be good. No wonder he’s confused. If he’s about to spook and you use a harsh voice, what good does that do? You need to think about him as a horse, not a puppy or a toddler.
Ultimately he sounds like a horse that needs a lot of work. If you can work with him 6 days a week while you’re on break, see how he does. I wrote work with, not ride 6 days a week. Sometimes doing ground work, desensitizing, etc is more useful than riding.
If you find that he’s better when working 6 days a week, then you need to decide if you can provide that for him on a regular basis. If you can’t, you have to sell him.
I’m going to give you an example of desensitizing that I did with my horse to give you an idea. He didn’t like tarps when I got him. So I brought out a tarp with me when I would feed him. It came out and just sat on the rail next to us for about a whole week while he ate or while I groomed him. Then I asked him to get closer to it while I crinkled it. If he moved his feet away, it kept crinkling. If he stayed still for even a second, it stopped. In this way I showed him what I wanted. I want him to react calmly and not move away. We did that for another week or so. Then I progressed to asking him to touch the tarp with his nose. I encouraged him with a treat. If he got close to the tarp while it crinkled, it stopped and he got a treat. Within a week he was touching the tarp to get his treat. I progressed this way with walking across the tarp, standing on the tarp, wearing the tarp, walking past airborne tarps, etc. And now my horse does not care much about tarps. He still wants to check them out but he knows what the rules are and what I expect of him. I do this with all kinds of new things, umbrellas, strollers, bicycles, toddlers, etc. But you have to show the horse what the right answer is. There’s nothing to punish, just giving them the best way forward.
how old are you? Your parents refusing to let you sell something you bought doesn’t make a lot of sense. Maybe you could find someone to ‘trade’ for a better fit? Like a trainer that wants/could use a project horse to fix and have one more suited to you…
Your fear of him is your biggest enemy. Above all, he must respect you and your vibe is telling him he has a reason to be scared/spooked/crazy. Sounds like he has a lot of holes in in training. I’d stop riding, go back and start from the ground up. You need to control his feet and get his attention on you at home, then expose him to new places. When he looks to you as a leader he will stop acting out so much because he won’t have a reason too…
Look into Carson James Horsemanship - he makes working with horses simple to understand. no games to play - the wrong is hard, the right thing is easy.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965942]
I know it comes to my decision. I bought Sam with my money. I’m riding him. And, no, it’s not fair that my sister gets to compete on a quiet horse and I have to have the crazy TB. But, like I said, my parents refuse to let me sell him. I’ve stated the facts and they still refuse, and it is selfish. I love Sam. I love him a lot. But I want to be able to compete. And I can’t do that with Sam.
But I don’t really know what to do. I don’t really want to give up on him yet.[/QUOTE]
Can you get a trainer who can actually ride a horse?? Sounds like he just needs a confident rider when he goes to new places. What he does at a new place is completely normal for a lot of horses. Unfortunately you lack the skill to even lunge him ( or teach him to lunge) so that tells me you probably lack the experience he needs in a rider.
I know you don’t want to hear it, but ride him where you can safely until you get a trainer who can actually earn their pay. A good trainer should be able to teach you and teach the horse.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965998]
I try not to confuse him…
…I ride as much as I can. When I was at uni it was three or four days a week. Now that I’m on holidays, I ride five days a week. I ride with my trainer any time she can. Because she has two properties, she spends more time up at her second property, so when she does come down everyone in the stable scrambles to get a lesson with her, me included. So it’s once about fortnight.[/QUOTE]
Far as trying…to paraphrase Yoda " TRY?. Only do or do not. There is no try." You need to ride consistently and correctly every time. It doesn’t matter if you ride twice a day 7 days a week, you have to do it correctly or you won’t ever get anywhere.
Taking a lesson every fortnight -14 days IIRC- isn’t helping anything or teaching either of you anything. Add the fact Trainer cannot be with you when you go off the property which is where the horse misbehaves? That is a setup for failure.
Look, not trying to dump on you here, its not your fault, not the horses fault, not the trainers fault. But you need help. Can you try a sit down talk with Dad being really honest that the horse scares you? Tell him that you need help? Can he work with the horse at all? Is there a stronger rider anywhere around you that could help?
Sam does not understand what he is supposed to do and not supposed to do as he’s never been taught, he doesn’t understand words and doesn’t get disciplined/corrected for misbehavior. He’s not focused on you because he doesn’t have to be, he can display separation anxiety instead of listen to you. He can spook because he does not understand it’s never OK, he’s learned sometimes it’s OK when you lead him and let him but then get tense when he wants to stop, look and spook when you ride. He doesn’t know the difference.
You need more help with him or something more suitable for your situation. You need to get Dad onboard here.
Besides taking him off the property more, there isn’t much you can do. And it sounds like he actually has been off the property a lot so I don’t think lack of experience is the issue here. I would train him to lunge, you may need to lunge him in a bridle with a bit so he doesn’t take off with you. Lunging him may take enough energy out of him to behave.
You can try supplements like perfect prep. I don’t know if they have that there but i am sure there is an equivalent. Another option is using regumate, which is used for mares but can be used in geldings too. It can significantly calm horses. I don’t know if this would be allowed where you are but you can talk to a vet.
How does he do off the property if someone else is on him?
Can your trainer get on him?
Another PC kid if you are in a club?
Does he act the same.
I agree with the above posters, the only way to work on it is to get him off the property. A lot. As in once a week. Have someone else get on him to give him some confidence.
I’ll part by saying I had a mare who was almost a nut case. Miles, miles, experience have done wonders for her. Also- maybe PC just isn’t in the cards for this horse with the rallies etc. Nothing wrong with adjusting to suit the needs of the horse (mine will never be a hunter. When I stopped trying to make her our life improved dramatically).
I want to be able to compete and go to new places, but Sam gets practically uncontrollable at shows. I’m not exactly a confident rider. I used to be, but I’ve had a lot of unfortunate events like falling which has left much of dented. So when the prancing gets started, the fear really begins to set in. Like, I’ll do everything you’re most definitely not supposed to do in these situations: lean forward, take up the reins as tightly as a jockey would, and sometimes just cry and beg to get off. [/QUOTE]
Confidence is hard to get back once you’ve lost it. It’s a mental game. It sounds like you are educated enough (horse-wise) to know that you aren’t responding correctly in these situations, and are having trouble summoning up the courage to handle it.
Of course, the more that you let that “fear” into your brains, whether you realize it or not, your horse will sense it and will become even more of a wreck.
He may very well be a sweetheart, but he also sounds like a spoiled brat.
The wind and your sister’s horse should have NOTHING to do with how he acts. The fact that it does tells me he has some training (and trust) issues.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
Sometimes at pony club, he’ll be a dream ride and then other rallies he’s a nightmare, which I don’t understand seeing that I’ve been taking him there for five years now, so he should be as chilled as anything. [/QUOTE]
He feeds off you. So if you aren’t confident (you admit above you aren’t) then he’s going to “be a nightmare” if he can’t look to you for guidance. Plus, he’s got holes in his training.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
We don’t take him places with my sister’s horse anymore because our horses have separation anxiety, and with us being in different classes experience wise, Sam acts up and I can’t ride. The last time I took him out that wasn’t to pony club was at a cross country clinic three years ago, and I felt like he was going to bolt the entire time because it was open fields and it was a new place, so I had to walk him around on foot everywhere to chill him out. [/QUOTE]
Horses have separation anxiety because you let them.
Yes, it can be a very hard habit to break. But it’s fixable. You have to put in the work to fix it. This is definately something you do not have to haul to a show to work on. You can work on it at home.
As far as the bolting, again, it comes down to holes in his training and your lack of confidence.
Of course it didn’t. His issues aren’t nutritional. His issues are behavioral (due to training).
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
I don’t want to get rid of Sam. He’s not a bad horse, and we work together quite well a lot of the time, not to mention that my parents and my trainer refuse to let me sell him, so either way I have no choice but to keep him, which I’m not arguing against. I think one of the problems is that he’s not confident. And since I’m not confident either, who’s going to be his leader? [/QUOTE]
Yup. You got it.
From the standpoint you DON’T work well together. He sounds like a horse that needs a confident rider. You are not a confident rider (and you know it). You are not a good match for each either.
I would absolutely tell you to sell him and get something more suitable, but I can understand being in a position where your parents dictate what happen.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
I also ride him as much as I can; mostly three days a week. Since I’m currently at university, that’s all I can muster, but I’m a five month break right now, so I ride him five days a week with the weekend off, unless it’s extremely windy outside which I refuse to ride in. [/QUOTE]
I can understand wanting to build your confidence, but why not ride when it’s windy?
You know he’s going to have “problems” when it’s windy, so that’s a prime opportunity to ride.
At least where I live, if I didn’t ride when it was windy, I’d never get to ride!
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
He doesn’t lunge at all. Like, I’ve tried to lunge him on a rope and he tries to drag me. The only place at my stable you’re allowed to lunge is in the round yards. I’ve tried doing it in the arena, but I’m not allowed to. Also, I used to lunge every time before getting on and that just revs him up. [/QUOTE]
He doesn’t lunge because he doesn’t respect you. Doesn’t trust you. Again, he has holes in his training.
Have your trainer show you how to lunge.
But in addition, WHY do you lunge him? If it’s to get rid of his excess energy, forget it. Most horses (especially a TB), you’d have to lunge for hours before you’d accomplish that.
I’m not against lunging, but in my mind it needs to be done for the correct reason. Letting them run in a circle like a mad man will do nothing for them. But lots of direction changes, transitions, halts, etc can really get a horse listening to you and paying attention.
I personally don’t learn as much from Parelli. I don’t think he always explains things well.
I much prefer Clinton Anderson, because he really explains what/where/when/why very well. However, he is more aggressive than I like, but you can still draw positive tidbits from him. You won’t progress as quickly and as aggressively as he does, but you can still learn a lot.
I have his trailer loading DVD (that I bought when I was having some trailer loading problems with Red) and it was extremely helpful. Again, I’m not going to go load my horse in the trailer after working them into the ground for 3 hours … but I can still use the methods and achieve success with it on my own time.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
I’ve done groundwork with Sam a little bit, but definitely not as much as should and not enough. I’ve tried the whole desensitising thing with him, but not enough. I do it a little bit, like, before I ride in the arena I walk around beside him for a lap to let him look for anything odd. [/QUOTE]
So you are desperate for help, but yet you’ve just half-@ssed everything so far?
Not pointing that out to be mean, but maybe to give you a kick in the pants. Get motivated! If you really want to do better with your horse, then you have to put in the time. If you kinda try, then you are going to kinda get results.
Sounds like you haven’t really tried hard enough to give up yet.
Create situations at home you know are going to bother him, so your trainer can help you work him through it.
Bring your sister’s horse and then take him away so he shows his herd bound attitude.
Hang up blue tarps on the arena fence or other scary spooky objects.
Etc. Find things that “rile him up” so you can simulate some of these things at home.
You’ll never be able to expose your horse to everything he’s afraid of. But you can teach him how to TRUST YOU and work through it. If you can teach him that, he’ll handle anything in stride with you.
The biggest thing is to keep him busy.
“Oh, your buddy left you? Too bad, we are going to work on sidepassing over here.”
“Oh, that blue tarp is scary? Too bad, we are going to lope circles next to it.”
Keep his feet busy and keep him listening. If you do this, those scary things become irrelevant because he has to listen to you instead and ignore it.
And same with YOU. Let yourself ignore any other stimulus that is going on. Focus on your horse. Don’t let any fear into your brain. Think positive. Visualize your horse doing what you ask him to do.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
I am always aware of my surroundings when I ride. I sort of turn his head in when I ride so he can’t see what’s outside of the arena (it’s surrounded with greenery and a small paddock-like area that belongs to no one). [/QUOTE]
Again. That’s not helping him. You are trying to keep him away from the scary things. You need to encourage encountering scary things!! That’s the only way you can teach him that it won’t hurt him, and he needs to look to you for guidance.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803]
I talk to him a lot as well when I ride. Like, I tell him to calm and stuff when I feel like he’s going to do something. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn’t. I mean, I know he can hear me because his ears flick back. [/QUOTE]
You don’t need to be saying anything verbal for your horse to have his ears on you. Having his ears on you means he is paying attention.
Just because it’s a fun video, watch this and watch the horse’s ears. Pretty much the whole ride, the horse is paying attention to the rider, even though she is not saying a word. Horses also pay attention to your body language and will flick their ears toward you when you are cueing them. https://youtu.be/HCWa828Grk8
If you want to talk to your horse, by all means, do. I’m a huge talker. I’m always talking to my horses. I supposed some people think I’m crazy, haha. But in all honesty, your horse isn’t using your voice as the biggest cue. The biggest cue is your body language whether you are on the ground or in the saddle.
[QUOTE=TheChestnutSamurai;8965803] When he does something wrong like shy away, I use a harsher voice. When he’s being good, I use a soothing and rewarding voice. When I feel like he’s going to spook, I tend to balance the two.[/QUOTE]
This does nothing but scare your horse more.
When you feel like he’s going to spook, what you need to do is get his attention on YOU. Immediately. Side pass him, do a transition change, or a serpentine, or a roll back or something to move his feet and get his brain off of the scary thing, and back onto you. Get him to put those ears on YOU so you know he’s listening to you, and forgetting about the scary thing.
You need to train him to use the thinking part of his brain; not the “flight” part of his brain.
Since you’re in Australia and at University, I am going to assume you can drive. Take your horse out to different places yourself and ask your trainer to go teach you there. Towing is really not that hard, it’s a little stressful the first few times, but take a friend so you can have someone in the car with you. I have been doing it since I was 16! If your parents aren’t prepared to take you then become independent and do it yourself.
If you can’t do that - do you have a friend with a tow vehicle and float who would be happy to take you out to different places in exchange for payment.
Also - have a look at the Mcleans - Andrew and Manuela Mclean. They are in Australia and have some really good books, super clear and easy to understand. All about positive reinforcement.
