If the horse did flip - he should go in for a scan to make sure he has no issues with his neck or spine. I wouldn’t risk being injured by pushing him forward until that’s done.
[QUOTE=CHT;6265155]
Could also be a mental block because of bad experiences. Do you have someone that could pony you? Or a horse that yours would follow? This may distract him enough from the fact he is being ridden to give it a try.
You could also try just sitting there until he gets bored and walks off and then just do a more or less passenger ride, slowing increasing your imput into what you do.
What about an anti-anxiety medication for short term?[/QUOTE]
Ok… thank you for all the replies. I will try and respond to them the best I can.
I tried this last night. I switched his bridle to my other horses Micklem bridle and took the suggestion for anti-anxiety medication. I gave him 30cc of Chill (I use this on my horse regularly for trailering).
I groomed him, took him out, lunged him only a quick walk/trot/canter both directions. He was really good.
I mounted and he stood perfectly still. I sat there for 3-4 minutes and very gently put my leg on and he walked forward. I praised him and he walked a few steps and stopped again. I squeezed my leg and asked him to turn and he walked on again. We then set out and no more problems, only a few slow downs here and there. We walked and trotted. He did none of his scooting, bolting or kicking out.
I am wondering if it is partly anxiety, partly balance thing. Sometimes when he gets trotting he does a nice big lofty step and then slows down right after like he scared himself or lost his balance.
[QUOTE=madmoiselle;6265155]I would take the spurs off … I hate spurs on young or ‘balky’ horses, because I feel that some resent them. And one of the good tools is to flap your legs or to give them a good old pony club kick.
I would put him in a round pen. Grab a bat, have a ground person and let him know that the only option he has is to go forward. If he does, I would get off and rinse and repeat till he is not questioning it…
Or send him to me [/QUOTE]
The round pen idea might work with just someone on the ground even.
I would send him to you if you weren’t so far lol!
I don’t ride with spurs, I don’t ride ever with them so definitely not putting them on the greenie!
[QUOTE=ASBJumper;6265155]… (going by your blog…) is this the same horse who reared and flipped on the crossties, hitting his head in the process, just 5-6 weeks ago??
If so, he may have an injury your vet didn’t find - did you send him to Ste-Hy or Guelph for a full work-up? [/QUOTE]
Yes this is the same horse. I want to make it very clear that this behaviour was there BEFORE his accident. I can assure you he is %100 physically. That was the most terrifying experience in my life and I have done all I can to ensure he is ok. He has been checked over twice since the accident and shows no sign of trauma (especially in the head). The vet said he is extremely tough. When he fell he fell on his side but hit his head. He mostly rolled on his round body. I did not send him to Guelph - no need. I have an excellent vet who I trust completely.
[QUOTE=RTF;6265155]
you cannot teach a horse a, go forward leg cue, from the ground. You get on a horse for the first time, and they HAVE NOT GOT A CLUE TO WHAT THE LEG MEANS. you can get a sideways step, but that is different from forward. I train my horse with a lunge whip to go forward ( very nicely by all means) and then progress to a dressage whip in hand, on the ground. I desentize them to the tools first…until they are almost too dead and realxed with them. I want them bored, but understanding and totally comfortable. From the first ride, I ride with the dressage whip, I give a little squeeze with my leg, then a bump then a touch/tap with the whip until I get a step. Then stop, praise, release. IF THE HORSE IS SCARED OF THE TOOLS THEN BY GOLLY TAKE THE TIME AND FIX IT. I wouldn’t want any horse of mine to be scared of something that helps me teach them.
Here is the deal though with what you describe. You have to get a newbie to go. you may need a helper, for his sake and yours. you have to be willing to do what it takes, but by all means, if it is as bad as you say…send him to someone that has started babies/youngsters. I have done 10, I consider myself OK with a grasp on it. Find someone that has done 250 and has done it WELL. That person can help him, and knows what they are doing. The first 90 days can make or break a horse. You don’t want another bad experience. I feel for the horse when I read this stuff [/QUOTE]
Just to be clear, when I said he goes off my leg, I meant when I was on his back. You are right about the whip. He is NOT afraid of a lunge whip, I don’t know if he is afraid of a dressage whip because I have never ridden him with one. I suppose I should carry one though and see how that goes.
I am planning on sending him away to my coach (if she will take him) if I can’t work through this. In the meantime I want to get advice or hear of other methods people have used. The problem with trainers in my region is they are either ; abusive, don’t know what they are doing, or too good and don’t want to ride horses that are jerks and might buck them off.
I have started quite a few young horses, difficult ones too. I have never started one that wouldn’t move after being trained the basics already!
[QUOTE=alto;6265155]
Absolutley re saddle fit - depending on how sensitive he is, the saddle might be pressing or blocking him somewhere once your weight is added.
Have you had someone check the saddle fit with you riding?
Has he been thoroughly checked for back soreness?
If he did go over, he may’ve broken a spinal process in the withers (often difficult to tell without Xrays) & saddle + rider = pain [/QUOTE]
I have had a few people look at all three saddles on him, we all agree they do look to fit nicely. I am having my first lesson on him next weekend so I will have my coach look at that point again as she is also a saddle fitter. Always good to have another opinion.
[QUOTE=staceyk;6265155]
Would you feel comfortable getting on bareback? Have you tried lungeing with the saddle on beforehand (I assume you have)? Even something ridiculous like putting a tub of grain or treats ten or so feet in front of him, or something a little scary behind him. Change things up like moving the mounting block to face the exit or mounting from the right side? Maybe do carrot stretches while mounted before you move off?
Having someone on the ground would give you more options. [/QUOTE]
I could…if I had to get on bareback. I really don’t want to but I suppose it might be worth a shot. I always lunge him with his saddle on and never have an issue on the lunge.
It seems like I will have to do some convincing to my non horsey husband to help me with some on the ground work… he will be so thrilled.
The horse I have now had such bad experiences with training that when I got her she would either rear or plant her feet, grow roots and refuse to move. I had a friend lead her around in a round pen with carrots with me sitting on her like a 3 year old on a pony ride. Eventually she actually took a breath and then she started listening to me.
Playing statue was her default resistance until one afternoon she tried it and nearly 4 hours later we were still standing there. She finally gave in, worked nicely for me and got to go eat her dinner.
I had a trainer who spends his days rehabbing spoiled horses tell me that this is not unusual with sensitive horses who have either been picked at or just confused by early training. Apparently, from the horse’s point of view, being beaten for standing is better than being ripped on for moving.
I do agree with other posters that this could very well be a pain issue for your horse, I just wanted to share a different experience.
We have a horse at my barn that did similar things and a full body scan discovered kissing spine.
And this will sound so stupid, but it worked on an extremely sour gelding we got in. His former owner was a weekend warrior type who rode him into the ground once a week or month. He started not budging when she got on. So she whipped him. I think he developed something like learned helplessness and just stood there and took the beatings.
When we got him we tried the traditional things to try to get him over his mental blocks but he’d take a few steps and plant again. One day I went out and got on him, and didn’t ask him to move. I just sat on him, took out a book and started reading. Eventually, he got curious as to why I wasn’t asking him to do anything. And he got bored. We were out there an hour and then he took a few steps. I immediately gave him huge amounts of praise and a cookie, and then I got off.
I did this for 2 days, just letting him walk out on his own around the arena, and by the third day I could ask him to go and he did!
He just needed to know he could go and he wouldn’t end up hurt. He ended up being an awesome trail horse for an older man who rode a lot, but conditioned him and didn’t ride him into the ground.
So, this horse has reared up, gone over and behaved “strangely” afterward not once, but twice. And something related to this unusual history hasn’t entered your mind?? You detailed his cross tie experience in your blog and it was horrific, to say the least. But there was also this before you came to have him (from your blog):
“Basically, he tried to buck her off and when she pulled his head up he whipped it up and smacked her in the face. Then he freaked out and she went off, he fell down and just laid there. That was one of the incidents.”
I wouldn’t get on this horse again until he’s had a full work up, physical, neurological…hell, I might even call a horse shrink if I were you. But seriously, based on this horse’s history, his past and present behaviors, something isn’t right. Please, please, please stay off his back and schedule a full workup for him at your nearest capable facility.
You must have missed the part where I said he exhibited this behaviour before his accident, AND the part where I explained he was seen by the vet twice after the accident, (not including the 2 hours the day of the accident).
To clarify, he didn’t rear on his old owner. He threw his head up and hit her in the face…which scared him and he backed up and fell sideways/over as he panicked.
I’m more inclined to think he has issues due to his bad start. The vet will be out soon to do their needles/teeth etc and I will have him go through the motions yet again just to be sure.
Maybe I will get some video and it will be easier to see this is not pain related.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6266761]
Yes this is the same horse. I want to make it very clear that this behaviour was there BEFORE his accident. I can assure you he is %100 physically. [/QUOTE] You are so ignorant in your thinking and knowledge of horse handling that it sickens me almost as much as the Cesar incident. No vet can diagnose kissing spine or nerve damage without extensive testing. You can assure us that he is 100% physically? Get real! I am so tired of reading about horse behavior issues when I feel they are likely pain issues and the owner doesn’t want to spend the money it takes to find out.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6267141]
You must have missed the part where I said he exhibited this behaviour before his accident, AND the part where I explained he was seen by the vet twice after the accident, (not including the 2 hours the day of the accident).
To clarify, he didn’t rear on his old owner. He threw his head up and hit her in the face…which scared him and he backed up and fell sideways/over as he panicked.
I’m more inclined to think he has issues due to his bad start. The vet will be out soon to do their needles/teeth etc and I will have him go through the motions yet again just to be sure.
Maybe I will get some video and it will be easier to see this is not pain related.[/QUOTE]
sigh What Justice said. It doesn’t matter HOW good your vet is - minute spinal compressions/neuro damage simply CANNOT be diagnosed by a simple work-up at your home farm. It’s impossible.
Furthermore, I will confess that I have been following your blog for a long time. We have mutual friends in the industry. It seems you like to persevere with the “difficult” horses and I respect that - but from everything you have described with this particular horse, I am afraid you are dancing on the edge of a razor blade and your luck will likely run out soon. You have described a dangerously reactive horse with serious “issues” - possibly physical, possibly mental. Horses do not generally “fall over and lie still” after just backing up from a scary incident. And I personally have had multiple horses spook on crossties, some hit their heads, NONE have ever “lost their mind” and gone over.
I second the poster who said something is really, really OFF about this horse. If you really want to help him, you need to do the responsible thing and send him for a complete work-up: that means being x-rayed, thermal imaging, etc… NOT being “poked & prodded” by your vet at home.
You say this behaviour was present before this recent incident - how on earth does that prove it’s not pain/injury-related? This is clearly not the first time he’s fallen/panicked - perhaps he sustained a neck/back injury a year ago, or 2 years ago, and neither your friend (previous owner) nor you are aware of it?
Or, you can continue to play with fire, and possibly end up in a wheelchair or worse trying to persevere blindly with this “problem” horse. That’s your prerogative, I guess. :no:
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6267141]
You must have missed the part where I said he exhibited this behaviour before his accident, AND the part where I explained he was seen by the vet twice after the accident, (not including the 2 hours the day of the accident).
To clarify, he didn’t rear on his old owner. He threw his head up and hit her in the face…which scared him and he backed up and fell sideways/over as he panicked.
I’m more inclined to think he has issues due to his bad start. The vet will be out soon to do their needles/teeth etc and I will have him go through the motions yet again just to be sure.
Maybe I will get some video and it will be easier to see this is not pain related.[/QUOTE]
This really sounds pain related or neurological to me. It sounds exactly like the mare with kissing spines in fact. She would buck when asked to move, rear and fall over. She acted scared too, but it was all fear of pain. Fortunately, her owner spent the money to get a full body scan and find the problem. Now she’s just a pasture puff, but no one is getting hurt either.
I had a mare with this exact same problem. She was checked from head to tail and there was nothing physically wrong with her at all. It was a learned behavior and it got worse and worse to the point I ended up selling her. Her and I were just a horrible match and by me keeping her as long as I did, I just reinforced the behavior. My trainer at the time wasn’t any help either. I ended up selling her to another trainer to be restarted and she’s as happy as can be (with her new 63yo owner) and so am I. I can’t believe I put up with is as long as I did. Good luck with yours, it’s a tough road.
Regarding the throwing the head up and going over… My 24 year old did this yesterday. Vet was out for the baby and had him check teeth on this guy. He resisted by raising his head and neck, then a weird look in his eye as he backed three steps into the gate, hind legs started quivering and he went over on his side. He apparently did this last fall when a different vet tried to check his teeth, flipped twice and was deemed as being “bad”. This guy just isn’t bad but I wasn’t there to see it then. I was there this time and it was involuntary. Vet recognized it as what it was and didn’t push when he started to resist and we got the check done. Palpation shows reaction in his mid neck vertebrae and the thoughts are neck arthritis. Ultrasound/xrays will show for sure, and it’s not every time he raises his head and neck, just in a certain way that apparently a nerve is getting pinched as it really looked like he lost control of his hind end. Doesn’t bother him in his regular retired life, just in resisting with a raised head/neck. He can still groom the other horses and plays face tag with the baby…
I suspect that posters who casually suggest the full body scans etc live in an area where such techniques are relatively accessible … as opposed to needing to transport the horse 2000 miles first.
Before I did that, I’d want to be damn sure it wasn’t behavioral first.
Of course I also believe that a horse with serious neck, spine, & neurological issues will present at libery as well as under saddle, you will see something under conditions other than just undersaddle.
I have more confidence in the vet than I do in the people who are agreeing that 4 different saddles all fit this horse.
[QUOTE=Petstorejunkie;6266162]
He could have a pinched nerve from the saddle. could be that it puts pressure on all the wrong places… it could be a number of things
He’s trying to tell you something, and it’s not eff you.[/QUOTE]
This. I wish people were more apt to assume pain rather than attitude with a young horse. Yes, some do have that moment when they decide that working for a living rather sucks, thanks, and they’re going to see whether they can get out of it, but pain needs to be ruled out first. Nothing like working a horse who’s hurting to ruin a good work ethic. :no:
That’s an interesting and clever approach. I’ve seen 2 friends’ horses do the back up tantrum and it was pretty scary (both were “punished” by former owners by making them back up so they were REALLY good at it). My QH mare tired it once with me but she didn’t persist when I told her to go forward - but I’ll keep this in my back pocket JIC it happens again. Good idea.
I haven’t read all of this, but I went through something similar with my mare.
She.Would.Not.Move. If you hit her, she went backward. It was EFF you.
She was soured by a trainer and by the time I got her out, she was fried. She wouldn’t drive and wouldn’t ride. You could long line her (Show saddlebred) & she was fine on the ground.
We turned her out for 3 months & forgot about her.
When we brought her in, she ran. We put her in a loose bitting rig, and turned her out in the arena, with some strategically placed help with whips & noise makers (tide bottle full of rocks 
). She ran for about 2 maybe 3 months. She also got a spoonful of caffeine in her grain. At that point she was started under saddle again, but still did a lot of ground work. She was weaned off the caffeine when she was going well under saddle, by that time she was really grabbing hold.
The driving part has been harder to fix, but that is pretty much a mental issue too - she got away without doing it long enough and was too good at pitching fit. Not cool in harness. Right now she’s part of pair, with a REALLY big boy.:winkgrin:
“I am wondering if it is partly anxiety, partly balance thing. Sometimes when he gets trotting he does a nice big lofty step and then slows down right after like he scared himself or lost his balance.”
How is YOUR balance?
I’m not being snarky. I’m not the best rider in the world and my intellectual riding far exceeds my actual ability ;). I know for certain my own balance issues create issues from time to time with my own horses and I work hard at resolving them before I blame it on my horse.
[QUOTE=Justice~for~Horses;6267159]
You are so ignorant in your thinking and knowledge of horse handling that it sickens me almost as much as the Cesar incident. No vet can diagnose kissing spine or nerve damage without extensive testing. You can assure us that he is 100% physically? Get real! I am so tired of reading about horse behavior issues when I feel they are likely pain issues and the owner doesn’t want to spend the money it takes to find out.[/QUOTE]
ouch! Let me go into my corner and cry for a little while now.
First of all, I am not ignorant in my horse handling. Unless you know me and can comment having met me and seen me handle a horse I don’t know if you can really make that judgement.
Not having the vet out has nothing to do with money, but we all know what they say about assumptions. When my vet tells me my horse is OK and he does not need further testing I trust him %100. Maybe I’m a fool, but he has never steered me wrong in the 15 + years I have known him.
I just don’t think it’s fair to attack me because you “feel” like it’s a pain issue when you have never met the horse.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6267141]
You must have missed the part where I said he exhibited this behaviour before his accident, AND the part where I explained he was seen by the vet twice after the accident, (not including the 2 hours the day of the accident).
To clarify, he didn’t rear on his old owner. He threw his head up and hit her in the face…which scared him and he backed up and fell sideways/over as he panicked.
I’m more inclined to think he has issues due to his bad start. The vet will be out soon to do their needles/teeth etc and I will have him go through the motions yet again just to be sure.
Maybe I will get some video and it will be easier to see this is not pain related.[/QUOTE]
Okaaaay, it chaps my rear end when someone asks for help and then people with oodles of experience offer just that and they get all snarky. Unless the horse was genetically engineered with a few fainting goat genes, getting scared, falling over and laying there is very NOT normal. Grand mal seizure - NOT normal. Severe concussion - can easily cause lasting balance /perception issues and/or pain. Previously rideable horse balking at the mounting block - NOT normal. The horse’s balance, mental condition and physical state would be at the top of my rule out list, in that order. But hey, you know he’s fine. Whatever, OP. Good luck with your perfectly normal, 100% perfect horse.
[QUOTE=alto;6267276]
Of course I also believe that a horse with serious neck, spine, & neurological issues will present at libery as well as under saddle, you will see something under conditions other than just undersaddle.
I have more confidence in the vet than I do in the people who are agreeing that 4 different saddles all fit this horse.[/QUOTE]
This is what I am curious about. If there were a physical issue, would it not show at some point when he is NOT under saddle.
Why would he go well under saddle once he gets over his little fit ? Doesn’t make sense. And onelaneroad I was sort of hoping it was pain related because at then you know what is going on.
I have never, ever put 100% confidence an any vet if the horse is still NQR. They make mistakes. I know my horses better than they do and if I think something is wrong and the attending vet doesn’t, I seek out a 2nd opinion. From what you’re telling us in these posts, something IS wrong. This wouldn’t be the first time that the hundreds of years of combined experience of the posters on +COTH have solved a problem that a farm vet couldn’t.
My advice is to tell ALL of this to another vet.
