My hunter under saddle horse in the making

[Ponytoes]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7411724]
QH Western Pleasure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UZimnORXRI

QH Hunter Pleasure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ORmawyK_k

I have no clue what they are looking for because it looks all kinds of wrong to me - but - have been around horses long enough - to see the difference is the horse in the Western is going slower, a bit of a smaller horse and in Western tack…

And clearly in many of the QH Hunter under saddle videos they are in violation of their own regulations on head carriage.

Thought this would qualify as a topic on this thread since the OP is riding a QH huntseat.

RULES -

"In AQHA’s “Official Handbook of Rules & Regulations,” rule 464(a) describes the proper movement and head carriage for the hunter under saddle horse. It specifically states that, “the poll should be level with, or slightly above the withers, to allow proper impulsion behind. The head position should be slightly in front of, or on the vertical.” Additionally, rules 464 (e) (5,8,9and 11) and rules 464(f) (1 and 2) are in place to ensure that horses are penalized or disqualified which do not conform to the rules of the class.[/QUOTE]

Horses do not hold heads that way naturally …and I thought hunters had it bad what are they doing to them to get it this way???

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Ponytoes;7411730]
Horses do not hold heads that way naturally …and I thought hunters had it bad what are they doing to them to get it this way???[/QUOTE]

Pits not just the heads. The only horse in nature that moves like that is crippled. So wrong and just gross. What a disservice to such beautiful animals.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7411757]
Pits not just the heads. The only horse in nature that moves like that is crippled. So wrong and just gross. What a disservice to such beautiful animals.[/QUOTE]
I agree, western pleasure headsets are usually too low. At national events, always. Around here, pretty decent.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7411757]
Pits not just the heads. The only horse in nature that moves like that is crippled. So wrong and just gross. What a disservice to such beautiful animals.[/QUOTE]
Oh and yes, the lopes look crippled. It’s one thing to have a balanced collected gait but another to look mechanical.

[karasha]

Ho. Lee. Crackers. I have never actually watched a western pleasure class before and my mind is blown. I wish this didn’t sound so close minded and perhaps rude, but oh my those horses looked crippled. As if someone thought the look of a lame horse was pretty. I kept hoping for them to just move forward and step up, but it never happened. :grief:

On topic of the HUS… I don’t mean to critique the particular rider, but her riding is similar to others I have seen in youtube videos of HUS. Many of them seem to post by jutting their hips forward in an exaggerated fashion. George Morris would have some really colorful expressions on describing this behavior and it reminds me of a very certain meme of him talking about apes. Many look so very active in the saddle, which is a very stark difference from hunters and dressage, where you try to look as minimal invasive as possible.

Very interesting to see differences! Today I learned…

[jvanrens]

[QUOTE=Madeline;7409725]
Sorry, I was a day late with my info. I don’t think that there will be a change in Western land on helmets until USEF mandates it. And that probably is not going to happen without a big lawsuit. “OK, USEF, why do you require helmets in some disciplines but not all?” “Well, it isn’t traditional” “But you know that helmets reduce the severity of many head injuries, right? That’s why you require some riders to use them.” “Yes, but it isn’t traditional.” “Pay the plaintiff $X,000,000. You have known better for decades.”[/QUOTE]

USEF doesn’t write the rules for AQHA, APHA, ApHC etc. They write their own.

Approved helmets are allowed in all classes, I think they’re only required in over fences classes (can’t remember all the recent rule changes).

[netg]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7411724]
QH Western Pleasure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UZimnORXRI

QH Hunter Pleasure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ORmawyK_k

I have no clue what they are looking for because it looks all kinds of wrong to me - but - have been around horses long enough - to see the difference is the horse in the Western is going slower, a bit of a smaller horse and in Western tack…

And clearly in many of the QH Hunter under saddle videos they are in violation of their own regulations on head carriage.

Thought this would qualify as a topic on this thread since the OP is riding a QH huntseat.

RULES -

"In AQHA’s “Official Handbook of Rules & Regulations,” rule 464(a) describes the proper movement and head carriage for the hunter under saddle horse. It specifically states that, “the poll should be level with, or slightly above the withers, to allow proper impulsion behind. The head position should be slightly in front of, or on the vertical.” Additionally, rules 464 (e) (5,8,9and 11) and rules 464(f) (1 and 2) are in place to ensure that horses are penalized or disqualified which do not conform to the rules of the class.[/QUOTE]

I miss the good old days when they were enforcing that…

Nowadays so many QH-types are bred for the low head carriage that they go like that from first ride. There are still amazing ones out there (and I like the OP’s!) but that low headset is now natural for many of them - they’re sort of the anti-German Shepherd of breeding. Interestingly enough, that breeding trend gives them hip and hock problems, too.

[findeight]

I don’t remember “them” ever enforcing it. I remember when they came out with these rules circa 1980s and since then it’s gotten worse if anything despite tweaking them every few years. Least back when you could pass instead of plaster yourself to the rail on the butt of the one in front of you.

The problem is the “they” that sit and write the rules don’t judge the shows and those that do judge will not get work if they rock that old boat. And if the horse doesn’t pin it won’t sell and nobody will book the stud or buy another out if the mare.

Still…I do see some nice ones out there properly brought along that are rewarded.

[netg]

[QUOTE=findeight;7412056]
I don’t remember “them” ever enforcing it. I remember when they came out with these rules circa 1980s and since then it’s gotten worse if anything despite tweaking them every few years. Least back when you could pass instead of plaster yourself to the rail on the butt of the one in front of you.

The problem is the “they” that sit and write the rules don’t judge the shows and those that do judge will not get work if they rock that old boat. And if the horse doesn’t pin it won’t sell and nobody will book the stud or buy another out if the mare.

Still…I do see some nice ones out there properly brought along that are rewarded.[/QUOTE]

At this point, fashion dictates that there are few well brought along to reward which is of course part of the problem for judges!

Late 80s or early 90s my barn was successful at the World show, Congress, Sun Country (back when it was in Tucson!), etc., and it was still all about the all-arounds instead of such specialization, and judges were really cracking down on heads to low. It didn’t last, but it was a big resurgence at the time and was great.

[findeight]

netg, IME the closer to the West Coast you were, the less atrocious the expected way of going. I showed AQHA as early as 1973 or so (as an adult) in So Cal when it was totally different then the rest of the QH world. Late 70s and most of the 80s was in Texas where the peanut rolling dominated and where AQHA is based. Despite member input, they have resisted really enforcing anything.

Even today, have friends who have splintered away from AQHA and NRHA Reining in favor of the NRCHA due to current trends in training and judging Reiners with noses hitting front fetlocks even in the slide…really only one way to train that…

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=findeight;7412244]
netg, IME the closer to the West Coast you were, the less atrocious the expected way of going. I showed AQHA as early as 1973 or so (as an adult) in So Cal when it was totally different then the rest of the QH world. Late 70s and most of the 80s was in Texas where the peanut rolling dominated and where AQHA is based. Despite member input, they have resisted really enforcing anything.

Even today, have friends who have splintered away from AQHA and NRHA Reining in favor of the NRCHA due to current trends in training and judging Reiners with noses hitting front fetlocks even in the slide…really only one way to train that…[/QUOTE]

I showed a QH in the 70’s West Coast and was rarely rewarded for what I felt was the proper way of going. Did well in the equitation so we did that for a few years then I was bitten by the jumping bug… Now ride Hunters (USEF)

I rode this cute little roan mare but she wasn’t built with the low neck set to carry her head the way they wanted even back then.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=402025033175919&set=a.402025019842587.97435.100001052770584&type=3&theater

I remember even as a kid what I saw (which is pretty much the same as the videos I posted) I just felt was wrong. They went SO slow where they looked like crippled turtles. Maybe why I moved on. Sadly I don’t see much of a change other than the QH’s of today looking a bit more like TB’s.

OP’s horse looks so much more correct than what I see at QH Congress etc…

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=jvanrens;7411816]
USEF doesn’t write the rules for AQHA, APHA, ApHC etc. They write their own.

Approved helmets are allowed in all classes, I think they’re only required in over fences classes (can’t remember all the recent rule changes).[/QUOTE]

But when the first one loses the big law$uit, they’ll all follow with a rule change.

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=findeight;7412244]
netg, IME the closer to the West Coast you were, the less atrocious the expected way of going. I showed AQHA as early as 1973 or so (as an adult) in So Cal when it was totally different then the rest of the QH world. Late 70s and most of the 80s was in Texas where the peanut rolling dominated and where AQHA is based. Despite member input, they have resisted really enforcing anything.

Even today, have friends who have splintered away from AQHA and NRHA Reining in favor of the NRCHA due to current trends in training and judging Reiners with noses hitting front fetlocks even in the slide…really only one way to train that…[/QUOTE]

I remember the west coast horses going differently–less on the forehand. A friend showed me an AQHA publication in the late 60’s and pointed out the differences between the Texas style (as she called it) and the California style (which was closer to the vaqueros, IIRC?). I remember thinking that the Texas style looked just plain wrong. And now it’s propagated everywhere. Even back then I recall that the friend said something about the California horses having to adjust for finals if they wanted to do well.

[trubandloki]

OP, I am impressed at how well you take the criticism. Far better than most people.

I think your horse is adorable though as has been said, he does not move like non-breed show hunter horse. You have been given great advice on what to work on. I hope you and your adorable horse have some great shows.

[QUOTE=RugBug;7409274]
I imagine these are fairly experienced riders, but their posting makes them look like total beginners. [/QUOTE]
This is what I think when I see it too. All that major thrusting.

[netg]

[QUOTE=findeight;7412244]
netg, IME the closer to the West Coast you were, the less atrocious the expected way of going. I showed AQHA as early as 1973 or so (as an adult) in So Cal when it was totally different then the rest of the QH world. Late 70s and most of the 80s was in Texas where the peanut rolling dominated and where AQHA is based. Despite member input, they have resisted really enforcing anything.

Even today, have friends who have splintered away from AQHA and NRHA Reining in favor of the NRCHA due to current trends in training and judging Reiners with noses hitting front fetlocks even in the slide…really only one way to train that…[/QUOTE]

May be, but my trainer had winners of top 10s at Congress/World Show, so it was rewarded elsewhere, too.

I trained w/ a h/j trainer, then did breed stuff, then IHSA in college, and it all transferred back and forth in those days. Not any more! After college there was absolutely no question I had any desire to go back to breed showing given what I saw in the ring, and honestly no matter how I did in eq I always felt I was lousy jumping - only put me on a back cracker if you want to see me get dirty! I don’t have depth perception, which I’m sure was part of it!

So now I’m a dressage rider, and found where I fit, but I still miss some parts of both worlds, and the temperament of a good QH which the one in the OP’s video seems to have is one of those things!

[Goldie_locks]

@trubandloki;7412359

OP, I am impressed at how well you take the criticism. Far better than most people.

I don’t think the OP has been criticized about anything but not wearing a helmet. Most everyone has said her horse is nice etc etc. I think her stop telling me what to do comments are far from being impressed over. But to each their own.

Her horse looks to be a suitable mount for open - 4H type schooling shows and to have some fun and learn. I agree with the posters that said she would benefit from an instructor.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7412670]
I don’t think the OP has been criticized about anything but not wearing a helmet. Most everyone has said her horse is nice etc etc. I think her stop telling me what to do comments are far from being impressed over. But to each their own.

Her horse looks to be a suitable mount for open - 4H type schooling shows and to have some fun and learn. I agree with the posters that said she would benefit from an instructor.[/QUOTE]

I think you’ve missed some things in this thread. Her OP states she is working with a trainer/instructor, and yes, she has gotten very fair and helpful advice from everything to her attire to her horse’s way of going. :yes:

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7412682]
I think you’ve missed some things in this thread. Her OP states she is working with a trainer/instructor, and yes, she has gotten very fair and helpful advice from everything to her attire to her horse’s way of going. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Ah I did miss the trainer part. We all could benefit from trainers. All is well in COTH land!

[huntseat3]

Thanks everyone.

[vxf111]

Swear to god the “level with the poll” rule came out 10+ years ago and they’re STILL not actually requiring it.

I did APHA back in the day. Back when an all around horse could really be ridden and do all kinds of stuff. I have NO interest in doing what’s shown in any of these videos. Ugh.