My kid is a jerk....

[Foxglove]

Although I haven’t read every single post to this thread, I have read most and what some seem to not address is your statement that your daughter seems to be following an example you set. You write: “She’s always been a kid that “questions authority,” always challenging the status quo. I actually REALLY like that quality in myself as it makes me a more productive adult.”

As a teacher for 40 years, I often had students who questioned my choice of material (“Why are we reading this?”) my methods (“Why are we doing this?”) and my goals (“Why is this important”). But only a handful EVER questioned my authority --and EVERY SINGLE ONE was backed up (or encouraged) by a parent to do so --there were larger problems in the child’s life than if I as a teacher with a licence to teach, degrees in three fields including psychology, was enough of an “AUTHORITY” to teach. After a brief sit down with parent and child, allowing the parent to take the lead and question my authority on whatever subject was being covered --the problem was resolved when the PARENT was comfortable that I knew my Chaucer from my Dante. By empowering the child and parent, I WAS the authority.

The problem maybe yours. Do you have faith in the instructors? Are you questioning their backgrounds, base of knowledge, and methods? I doubt if your daughter’s instructor was Jimmy Wofford or Buck Davidson either of you would be questioning the instructor’s AUTHORITY. If you cannot speak well of the instructor or don’t think well of him/her, then your child will reflect and repeat what you have told her. Have you discussed YOUR reasons for selecting the instructor and told the child WHY and what you expect the instructor to accomplish? (I always told parents that I cannot teach your child to write professionally, but I can teach him to write better than he does and give him a basis for his writing).

A second statement you give involves you dropping daughter off then doing “other things” with your children or job related. Could this disparaging of the instruction and the acting out be a bid for attention? With so much on your plate the instructor’s complaint of inappropriate behavior IMMEDIATELY grabs your attention and puts your daughter in the forefront of your thoughts --just where every child wants to be!

Two ways to go on that: best one is to be present for the lessons (without other children) and spend the time after (with the instructor present) complimenting the child on her attentiveness and progress with the instructor --make verbal plans for next time --“I know you were working hard on your two point, and I could see what Miss Debbie meant by keeping your let still --it must be so hard–but you are so talented and Miss Debbie will keep helping you I know you’ll do it perfectly the next time!” Then wax at length about the improvement and how great your kid is. Exactly HOW is the child then going to explain that Miss Debbie is stupid and doesn’t know her girth from her stirrup? You’ve set the tone (parent) and shown her you admire both her (child) and instructor.

The second idea might be for YOU to vet the instructors with your daughter and allow her to decide who can help her on the path she’s chosen. Right now my grand daughter works with the 3rd best instructor in our area --there are two better --BUT she LIKES her instructor. I’ve asked her if she wants to change barns, and she says no --she said even if she doesn’t win, she’d rather work with her current instructor because he understands her and her horse. The more I suggest that she move, the more she insists on staying where she is. The important point is that SHE IS ALLOWED TO CHOOSE. FYI if she talked back to her instructor, he’d fire HER – he’s kicked kids out of his barn before for disrespect. And certainly as a teacher, I’ve removed students from my classroom for disrespect of me or classmates or materials. Maybe the instructor needs to be assured that YOU would back that decision.

I’ve had two eventing daughters work with everyone from the local up-down instructor to Ian Starke – I always gave the girls the choice of whom to work with --if one said “Miss Debbie isn’t helping me” --then I asked, whom do you want to work with that we can 1) trailer to 2) afford --frankly, Miss Debbie was often the only game in town and having “eyes on the ground” was better than MOM helping --but I NEVER paid for a lesson the kid didn’t want (waste of money).

Anyway, that’s my take on it --it isn’t HER problem --at 12 she’s reflecting --see how your own choice and behavior can improve or resolve the situation in such a way that your relationship with her (most important, even above Rolex) will become stronger.

Foxglove

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Foxglove;8673505]
Although I haven’t read every single post to this thread, I have read most and what some seem to not address is your statement that your daughter seems to be following an example you set. You write: “She’s always been a kid that “questions authority,” always challenging the status quo. I actually REALLY like that quality in myself as it makes me a more productive adult.”

As a teacher for 40 years, I often had students who questioned my choice of material (“Why are we reading this?”) my methods (“Why are we doing this?”) and my goals (“Why is this important”). But only a handful EVER questioned my authority --and EVERY SINGLE ONE was backed up (or encouraged) by a parent to do so --there were larger problems in the child’s life than if I as a teacher with a licence to teach, degrees in three fields including psychology, was enough of an “AUTHORITY” to teach. After a brief sit down with parent and child, allowing the parent to take the lead and question my authority on whatever subject was being covered --the problem was resolved when the PARENT was comfortable that I knew my Chaucer from my Dante. By empowering the child and parent, I WAS the authority.

The problem maybe yours. Do you have faith in the instructors? Are you questioning their backgrounds, base of knowledge, and methods? I doubt if your daughter’s instructor was Jimmy Wofford or Buck Davidson either of you would be questioning the instructor’s AUTHORITY. If you cannot speak well of the instructor or don’t think well of him/her, then your child will reflect and repeat what you have told her. Have you discussed YOUR reasons for selecting the instructor and told the child WHY and what you expect the instructor to accomplish? (I always told parents that I cannot teach your child to write professionally, but I can teach him to write better than he does and give him a basis for his writing).

A second statement you give involves you dropping daughter off then doing “other things” with your children or job related. Could this disparaging of the instruction and the acting out be a bid for attention? With so much on your plate the instructor’s complaint of inappropriate behavior IMMEDIATELY grabs your attention and puts your daughter in the forefront of your thoughts --just where every child wants to be!

Two ways to go on that: best one is to be present for the lessons (without other children) and spend the time after (with the instructor present) complimenting the child on her attentiveness and progress with the instructor --make verbal plans for next time --“I know you were working hard on your two point, and I could see what Miss Debbie meant by keeping your let still --it must be so hard–but you are so talented and Miss Debbie will keep helping you I know you’ll do it perfectly the next time!” Then wax at length about the improvement and how great your kid is. Exactly HOW is the child then going to explain that Miss Debbie is stupid and doesn’t know her girth from her stirrup? You’ve set the tone (parent) and shown her you admire both her (child) and instructor.

The second idea might be for YOU to vet the instructors with your daughter and allow her to decide who can help her on the path she’s chosen. Right now my grand daughter works with the 3rd best instructor in our area --there are two better --BUT she LIKES her instructor. I’ve asked her if she wants to change barns, and she says no --she said even if she doesn’t win, she’d rather work with her current instructor because he understands her and her horse. The more I suggest that she move, the more she insists on staying where she is. The important point is that SHE IS ALLOWED TO CHOOSE. FYI if she talked back to her instructor, he’d fire HER – he’s kicked kids out of his barn before for disrespect. And certainly as a teacher, I’ve removed students from my classroom for disrespect of me or classmates or materials. Maybe the instructor needs to be assured that YOU would back that decision.

I’ve had two eventing daughters work with everyone from the local up-down instructor to Ian Starke – I always gave the girls the choice of whom to work with --if one said “Miss Debbie isn’t helping me” --then I asked, whom do you want to work with that we can 1) trailer to 2) afford --frankly, Miss Debbie was often the only game in town and having “eyes on the ground” was better than MOM helping --but I NEVER paid for a lesson the kid didn’t want (waste of money).

Anyway, that’s my take on it --it isn’t HER problem --at 12 she’s reflecting --see how your own choice and behavior can improve or resolve the situation in such a way that your relationship with her (most important, even above Rolex) will become stronger.

Foxglove[/QUOTE]

From an expert voice of authority.

[mugsgame]

I was that entitled 12 year old who had a hard lesson. I did not do something I was told to do, in this case washing my pony off after a fun ride. I was then banned from hunting at the opening meet and the real indignity was I had to clean and plait the pony for another kid to take. I was furious. But I did not do it again.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8672957]
I’ve read the majority of the posts, but quit when I got to the one about how spanking a child is terrible and ruins lives. I don’t have kids, but I was your kid. So here is how I would handle me 15 years ago, this is also how my parents handled me and I’m a relatively successful adult now (relatively speaking. When are we ever classified as successful?)

At 12, I had 3 horses of my very own. Honestly, it could have been 4. I don remember. My family had money and I wanted to ride. So we had the horses I wanted. I wanted to jump so I had a jumper. I wanted to run barrels, I had a barrel horse. I wanted to do saddle seat, I had a saddle seat horse. My mom would hop on the saddle seat horse occasionally to trail ride with me. Still to this day she swears its her horse, but we all knew it was bought because little spoiled brat wanted to ride saddle seat (that’s me by the way. The spoiled brat is me). Despite me getting whatever I wanted, my horses were on self care board. I had to work to ride them. And then I had to work more because my parents were not paying for lessons. They payed for exactly 10 lessons and then said if this is what I wanted to do, they spoke with the trainer and I was able to work off my lessons and that’s what I would do. Even better, my horses weren’t stabled at my trainers, so here is how my day went. School day: 5am wake up. Go to barn, feed and turn out. Home by 6. Shower and head to school by 7:15. Get out of school head to barn to put horses up and feed again, do home work at barn (I was trusted to get home work done before I rode, but if we are being honest, I usually didn’t finish my home work before I rode. I’d feed, do a little bit, then ride, then finish homework. Pretty sure I should have ridden before I fed, but I wasn’t the most knowledgeable 12 yr old). 3 days during the school week, I’d have to do night feeding of trainers horses as well, so after I’m done with mine (roughly 6-630) I’d head to her barn to feed. Weekends, I slept in. 7 am at my barn to feed and turn out, 9 am at trainers barn for start helping in anyway I could. Cleaning stalls, cleaning tack, helping beginners tack up, anything that needed to be done. My lesson was usually after lunch, so around 1 or 2, I’d ride for an hour, then back to doing whatever needed to be done. Weekends, I fed night time as well, but always fed a little early because my horses still had to be ridden. So fed around 5, then off to my barn to ride at least 2, and clean stalls and feed.

Weekends I usually had a free pass to not do house work, but at home I was responsible for cleaning the living room and the kitchen as well as maintaining my room and laundry (only putting up. Despite how handy I was around the farm, I was not allowed to touch the washing machine!).

I honestly have no idea how I managed and am still alive to tell the tell.

My point of all that was, when I got in trouble (more often then I like to admit. I still have a mouth that I find hard to close. You guys have witnessed!), still had to go out and do all the work, but was never not once allowed to step foot in a stirrup. Which also ensured I didn’t have time for boys! And at 12, boys were the last thing on my mind.

If your daughter wants to stray from riding, she is going to do it regardless. Be the parent and make her suffer! She deserves it. All the advice given has been great, but she deserves to be punished. I’m not in the camp of “let’s talk it out and then all is well”. No! We will talk it out and you’re still grounded!

Good luck![/QUOTE]

This bears repeating.

It really does not matter how much parents give their children, what makes the difference between a spoiled child and an unspoiled child is whether the child has to EARN privileges.

I too grew up on a wealthy household but let me tell you there was no dice whatsoever unless things were earned. My parents could afford a lot of things they didn’t give me because they preferred to make me figure out how to earn it for myself. Any time I wanted ANYTHING given to me I had to do all the research, anticipate questions my parents would ask, and then make a little mini presentation about the desired thing and also detail what I would do from my end to earn it.

If I wanted rides to school instead of taking the bus, I had to make sure my room was clean.

If I wanted to go on a community service trip to Africa I had to bring my parents the brochure, show evidence that I had called rhe administrators of the program for further info (this was before the internet really took off), and presnt my request in a format such as, “I would like to be able to do this program. It is x weeks long and costs Y. This covers the following things but not airfare. Airfare will be in Z price range. I was to go on this trip because ABC. If I keep an A average and get Y job for the weeks of the summer when I am not in the program can I go?”

There is so much parental bargaining power that can be had if parents simply make their kids earn privileged instead of just handing things over as gifts. My oarents did 0 things other than set up expectations. It was me who then spontaneously approached them with promises about my GPA, behavior, and summer employment. I never got into trouble as a kid because I knew without a doubt that every privilege I held dear would disappear if I did.

It is such a powerful bargaining chip. I do not understand why parents throw it away by just giving their kids things without making them earn them. WhenEVER a kid wants ANYthing, parents should say, “Yeah? And what’s your part of the deal that YOU are offering.” The kids will spontaneously come up with their own rules/expectations to meet and then if they fall short boom, end of privilege until the deficit is addressed. They will be 1000 times more likely to follow the rules/expectations they came up with themselves, all to get their parents to give them something they want.

Isnt it 1000 times harder to enforce rules you came up with and you are imposing, without any enforcement tools such as removing privileges? How on earth will the kid learn to be non entitled?? Isn’t it easier to get the kids to say “I will do x y and z and also I understand if I miss curfew once the thing I want will be taken away immediately?” Get the kids to do the work!

Life is a two way street. You only get what you are willing to earn. Parents also get the behavior they are willing to expect and take privileges away for.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=joharavhf;8671439]
I think this is a big part of the disrespect. She is definitely a child that asks why a million times and wants to learn everything. There is one instructor that is INCREDIBLE and she LOVES her. She would NEVER get sassy with this instructor. The other instructors (including owner/main instructor) have more experience but are more “reserved” in their observations. I’ve watched all of them teach. I agree with the kid in what I like when I’m taught, too. I think I probably should’ve moved her on earlier. But then she would’ve never learned to respect even when you don’t agree/understand.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps a sit-down with the daughter in which you point out that these instructors have forgotten more than she even knows at her stage, and that a lack of respect for said experience is a good way to die where horses are concerned is in order. Presented in your best George Morris fashion.

[Equibrit]

She needs to be on mucking duty, and go grooming for the summer with a BNT.
If she handles that apropriately, riding previleges will be restored.

[pony_grandma]

I logged in just to agree with Foxglove. From the original post we as observers can’t really discern the whole story. And the kid is 12, there alone is massive conflictions! I don’t think that’s a word but you all know what it means. it came up on spell check :lol:

There’s a fine line between preteen BS and successfully guiding them. And then sometimes there is a massive divide. There’s the old saying that kids come by their behavior honestly, you two sound somewhat similar.

Without addressing the disrespect, that’s another post and has been well addressed here, and the tolerance for that should be zero.

I would encourage that you attend the lessons and open up more honest conversation, ask more questions, let the kid talk. Just listen at first. More talk will come that way. Ask open ended questions.

We can’t judge her true talent here on paper. Or the instructor’s. Jumping more and higher is never the real answer but knowing kids they think it is. And having taught a few preteens in my old days they do think they know it all. I had to use exercises that really honed in clear simple points and laid proper groundwork. I figured out ways to create some big aha moments that made them as riders engaged and more interested in honing the true fine points that are the building blocks.

I also taught them to slow down and learn to watch, really testing their youthful impatience. The biggest part of the lesson is learning how to learn in life and accepting the setbacks and acquiring the patience to learn to wait - like training a horse to stand still. :winkgrin:

No one here can judge the level or quality of instruction you have resources to so that is a mute point. And if you’re not in attendance then you don’t actually know either. My best guess is that your daughter needs someone who challenges her to learn at a deeper level of the basics. Not just rote programmed instruction. And she needs to mix it up so it is kept challenging for her. Everyone has different learning styles and she needs an instructor who can appeal to hers. None of us can judge that here.

As a parental note, she needs to develop the patience to learn to go watch if she truly has aspiration. Does she volunteer to work with your local events? Working behind the scenes is a real eye-opener, and will help teach her diplomacy!! And she’ll get a dose of how rude people can be. Tell her that everything people say and do in life shows everyone exactly who they are, she’ll get it if she goes and works around it! Opening her eyes for learning may become your ally. Sit somewhere quietly and let her verbalize what she sees watching other competitors. Not sitting in judgment but learning to develop an eye. Make it about her education and don’t allow her to be judgmental. Go watch top riding. That’s the cheapest way to develop a good eye.

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8673473]
That’s it! I finally figured out why I haven’t ridden in the olympics or been around Rolex yet … It was those couple forced weeks off from riding I had as a kid after mouthing off to my parents![/QUOTE]

Oh this is precious!