My kid is a jerk....

[QUOTE=joharavhf;8671303]
The kid has been requesting to ride with a new instructor as of late. She took a few clinics this winter with other instructors (arranged by the current barn owner as she goes South for the winter). She loved the other instructors as they pushed her - hard. [/QUOTE]

I’m not a parent, so can’t give better advice on handling the disrespect than has already been given by others, but want to isolate this part of your post to emphasize that she is asking to work harder than her current instructors work her. It sounds like she has outgrown her current instructors, even if they are continuing to give valid advice. As an analogy, I teach at a university and while the advice I give my “C” students applies equally well to the “A” students, that particular type of advice isn’t really what the “A” students truly need to better master the material.

The behavior you describe reminds me of the stereotypical “rowdy but gifted kid” who acts out in class and doesn’t do his work because he isn’t being challenged enough.

I will admit, of course, that I am seeing this through my own biases, as I was always TOO “respectful of authority” in my youth to let it be known when I wasn’t getting enough out of my instruction, and as an adult have realized how detrimental this was. I have never, as an adult, regretted following my gut and moving on when I thought I wasn’t getting enough out of lessons.

There is absolutely no reason that this 12 year old should continue to enjoy the privilege of riding horses if she is not earning it.

She should not be able to return to the barn until:

  1. Her grades and perfomance in school are worthy of perks.
    2 Yesterday evening’s/this morning’s chores are complete (please tell me she brings her own laudry to the washing machine and puts it away, and helps clear the table/load the dishwasher/makes her own lunch)
  2. She writes a letter of apology and statement of intent to change her ways to the people she has been dosrespectful to at the barn.

And thr SECOND she starts misbehaving again she goes IN THE CAR AND HOME and any other play dates or fun activities for the day are cancelled.

I imagine if this were her new reality the poor behavior would stop. She only does it because there arent any consequences.

I have read most but not all of this thread so I might have missed this suggestion earlier: you want her to ride, but does she NEED her stirrups or saddle to do that?

I was disrespectful to my trainers as a teenager. The head trainer chewed me out, I was made to apologize or leave the barn, and I lost my stirrups for a while. I’m not sure a chewing out would have the desired result with your daughter, but losing things like stirrups, saddle… you can still ride, but it’s not nearly as fun and a lot more painful. Also tends to be really good for you in the long run. Why not do that, let her know that riding might be a constant but things like tack are a bonus?

I am a parent, one son now 19. I don’t know that this gives me or my advice any real weight, but just wanted to be clear.

I would say that the most important thing is to establish rules with your daughter. It’s quite possible that the message she has gotten from you so far is that it is laudable to challenge authority, even in an obnoxious way.

So rather than dropping the hammer on her right away I’d have a long talk with her about what is acceptable and what is not. And this talk should be specific and detailed.

Then, you should tell her that she needs to formally apologize to her instructor and the barn owner to whom she mouthed off. This is important. The takeaway is that, “we all are capable of doing stupid things, saying hurtful things, etc., but what matters is how we deal with the mess afterward.” She doesn’t get to just walk away. She’s old enough to do her own apologizing (with prodding from you if necessary).

Then you have a discussion with her about what an appropriate punishment might be for this offense, and then for any subsequent offense like it. It might not be taking away her horse for two weeks. It might be cleaning the BO’s tack for a week, or grooming the instructor’s horse for a week (obviously in consultation with them!).

Good luck.

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8672290]
Geez. Lots of softies here. Horses aren’t a right. They are a privledge that should be earned. Mouthing off would have gotten me pulled off a horse and out of the barn faster than I could shut my bratty little mouth. Of course, I also got my mouth washed out with soap for telling my big brother I hated him (I got a warning once…did it again, and sure as hell my dad followed through. And, you know what? I honestly can’t say I HATE anyone now! I learned early that words have power and meaning). I also had to do chores around the house to earn my riding lessons. Chores not done? Too bad. No lesson. Once I had my own horse, I paid for EVERYTHING. Privledge. Not a right. Yeah, the barn was my happy place and my horse (who is still in my backyard, almost 20 years later) was a great comfort for me as a teen, but that didn’t guarantee me anything if I was obnoxious.[/QUOTE]

It’s not about being “soft”, it’s about treating children like actual people and not emotionless possessions. Just like studies have now conclusively shown that physical reprimands like spanking cause more negative than positive outcomes, things need to change regarding how we approach childrens’ (especially pre-teens and teens) behavior and feelings. No, I’m not saying to give them a free for all to be mouthy jerks and get everything for free. Often these children that “act up” are intellegent individuals that mean well, but they’re still learning how to manage themselves in a society that can be frustrating and confusing. They haven’t experienced a lot yet, but we shouldn’t discount their feelings due to their lack of experience. Their brains are still growing and they are still learning to communicate effectively, so it’s easy for them to become overwhelmed with emotions and thoughts and stress and just start lashing out.

My first horse was a lazy bombproof gelding. The only thing he put effort into was acquiring a bottle of soda (…I didn’t start that, his previous owners did). One day he bucked me off. Then the next day he bucked me off again. Instead of punishing him for lashing out, I tried to figure out what caused this sudden behavior change (like most of us good horsepeople would). Turned out that my saddle didn’t fit quite right and he just couldn’t take it anymore. Got a new saddle (and had it fitted), got him a visit from a nice chiro and massage therapist, and the lazy boy I knew returned.

Sorry if this is all a big jumble! I’m on my mobile and only half awake right now.

This isn’t a horse problem and I wouldn’t treat it like a horse problem. It’s a learning how to interact with people problem. At some point, she’ll have a teacher whose personality/methods don’t gel with her personality. And then at some point she’ll have a boss and/or co-workers who she will struggle to get along with. So my advice, worth the exact $0.00 that you’ve paid for it ;-), is to focus on the people interaction issue and the fact that it happens to be taking place in a barn happens to be secondary and I’d leave punishment via riding & horses out of the equation, because, again, this is not about the horses.

I’d sit down and work all this out…understand that you are unhappy with x & y as instructors and you’d rather work with z. But your behavior towards x & y is not acceptable because…etc etc…and now lets work out a plan to make amends for your behavior with x & y and make a transition plan that works for everyone for you to move to work with z. But z can not happen until we make things right with x & y. That type of thing. Clearly I’m rowing against the tide of “rip her off her horse” popular opinion, but to me, the correction needs to be related to the offense, and the offense is people interaction skills, not the horse.

Carry on & good luck!

I’d ground her and rub in the grounding by having an instructor ride the pony and make her go to the barn and watch. Make time to go with her.

You do realize that if you change the system of trainers, she’ll have been rewarded for her bad behavior. Make her live in the system after the grounding for a reasonable time, let her know that if she is respectful and polite and attentive for six months, you’ll look into a trainer change. Put her in purgatory before she can get to heaven.

[QUOTE=lidador;8672599]
I’m not a parent, so can’t give better advice on handling the disrespect than has already been given by others, but want to isolate this part of your post to emphasize that she is asking to work harder than her current instructors work her. It sounds like she has outgrown her current instructors, even if they are continuing to give valid advice. As an analogy, I teach at a university and while the advice I give my “C” students applies equally well to the “A” students, that particular type of advice isn’t really what the “A” students truly need to better master the material.

The behavior you describe reminds me of the stereotypical “rowdy but gifted kid” who acts out in class and doesn’t do his work because he isn’t being challenged enough.

I will admit, of course, that I am seeing this through my own biases, as I was always TOO “respectful of authority” in my youth to let it be known when I wasn’t getting enough out of my instruction, and as an adult have realized how detrimental this was. I have never, as an adult, regretted following my gut and moving on when I thought I wasn’t getting enough out of lessons.[/QUOTE]

As a child and a teen, I was quite talented in arts and literature, and in a world where there was absolutely no meaningful education or feedback or mentoring other than “wonderful, darling.” I found it frustrating, although since no one was trying to teach me anything at all (high school was a joke), there was no one to get pissy with. When I grew up, I found out how to develop and professionalize, but this took a lot of individual effort. I also realized how bad most instruction in almost everything is. Also, that instruction is only part of the equation; we aren’t taught things, we learn them, and not always formally.

We didn’t have riding lessons at all as kids, so I can’t comment on that specifically.

I say this to sympathize a bit with a kid who feels she is being held back by mediocre instruction. From the OP I can’t really tell what the situation is here, how advanced daughter is, how unsatisfactory she finds her instructors.

I agree that she needs to learn how to behave respectfully to people around her, but she also needs a chance to articulate what she finds frustrating, and to think through how she can meet her goals, either within this framework or another.

If she is grounded, one thing she can spend her time doing is writing down what she finds frustrating about her lessons and instructors, and then exploring what she can do about it.

As a teen, as an adult too, it can be very hard to separate out when we are reacting from our weaknesses, and when we are reacting from our strengths.

An example of reacting from weakness: we are frustrated because we didn’t think the instructor gave us enough praise, or because she praised another kid who has less ability, but who needed a bit of a boost. Here, gaining strength means gaining enough confidence in our own basic ability that we are able to be generous towards others, and also not needing constant reinforcement.

Reacting from strength, though, might mean that we see that we are not being allowed to expand our own abilities. It might mean that we think the instructor is teaching something wrong, or in contradiction to what we have already learned. It might mean that we truly are in advance of the rest of the group, and we really are spinning our tires.

If tween wants to go on and become competitive, she needs to learn both diplomacy, and enough true self-confidence that she is not irritated or upset or hurt by the ups and downs of praise and working in a group. But at the same time, she needs to be able to define what she needs to accomplish in order to achieve her goal, and to have some say in how she gets there.

What are her goals, and how does she feel she isn’t able to meet them in her lessons? Is she in a group lesson where exercises are kept too low for her level? Does she misunderstand the purpose of exercises, for instance the importance of flat work between jumps? Etc.

Have her write a list of all the things she finds frustrating and the things she finds useful in her lessons, and then a list of goals and whether she can find a way to meet them in her current situation. If she can’t, what does she need to meet them? She doesn’t have to show you her rough draft of this, but rather her ideas for moving forward.

Then you and her have a discussion, and if it seems productive, the three of you with her instructor (the one she likes). If tween wants to max out her competitive potential, what kind of time line does she need to be on? Does she need to be jumping a certain height by next year? If so, what are the steps to get there? Does she need to do more flat work, more jumps, more longe lessons, what? Where are the gaps in her riding? At what point will she truly outgrow these instructors and need to move on? What will she need to move on, and to be in a barn where she is smallest, youngest, least skilled, instead of a barn star? Can you send her to some clinics that might push her?

In other words, treat her as much as possible as you would an adult in this situation. Have her identify her goals, and discuss how to reach them in a realistic way. She might need more guidance in this process than an adult would, but it will help her think about her behavior and help the adults around her understand what she needs.

While sorting out your parenting and how you are going about this, you need to empower the instructors too. While I respected my parents, I knew who paid the bills, ran me to the barn, kept me in horses…what really hit home for me was one of my trainers, after I’d been griping about a winning but difficult leased horse I’d recently started riding. In a moment of utter exhaustion and frustration I snatched the heavy bit-grabby horse in the mouth and the trainer stopped mid-sentence and told me, “when you decide you need a trainer, give me a call…” she turned and walked out of my private lesson. That jerked my head around faster than anything my parents could have said.

It was very humbling and embarrassing and the look of disappointment on her face was the worst - she obviously expected more of me and I joined the ranks of common riders then and there. I knew I wasn’t going anywhere without great instruction and I wasn’t going anywhere being unable to handle my moods in front of trainers and complicated horses. I had to humbly address my actions and attitude to win my trainer back and it didn’t happen that day…she had nothing to prove to me, but I had to muster up some maturity and own my mistakes and endure what I needed to endure at the time. It was a lesson I have never forgotten. Your daughter will get nowhere with her riding career (or life in general) with an attitude like that towards those she must work with. She’ll end up with no one wanting to work with her and golden opportunities lost.

I personally think taking away riding/barn time sends the wrong message…horse it pony is not a hobby you take away it’s an animal the should be in a routine and she is responsible for its health and wellbeing ( I know that was the stance my parents took and it instilled great sense of responsibility ). I do think however that any showing/clinics/camp of other “fun” things can be taken away until she is respectful to all. Also obviously sleep over or other fun things…that’s just my two sense as a mom and barn owner.

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8672875]
As a child and a teen, I was quite talented in arts and literature, and in a world where there was absolutely no meaningful education or feedback or mentoring other than “wonderful, darling.” I found it frustrating, although since no one was trying to teach me anything at all (high school was a joke), there was no one to get pissy with. When I grew up, I found out how to develop and professionalize, but this took a lot of individual effort. I also realized how bad most instruction in almost everything is. Also, that instruction is only part of the equation; we aren’t taught things, we learn them, and not always formally.

We didn’t have riding lessons at all as kids, so I can’t comment on that specifically.

I say this to sympathize a bit with a kid who feels she is being held back by mediocre instruction. From the OP I can’t really tell what the situation is here, how advanced daughter is, how unsatisfactory she finds her instructors.

I agree that she needs to learn how to behave respectfully to people around her, but she also needs a chance to articulate what she finds frustrating, and to think through how she can meet her goals, either within this framework or another.

If she is grounded, one thing she can spend her time doing is writing down what she finds frustrating about her lessons and instructors, and then exploring what she can do about it.

As a teen, as an adult too, it can be very hard to separate out when we are reacting from our weaknesses, and when we are reacting from our strengths.

An example of reacting from weakness: we are frustrated because we didn’t think the instructor gave us enough praise, or because she praised another kid who has less ability, but who needed a bit of a boost. Here, gaining strength means gaining enough confidence in our own basic ability that we are able to be generous towards others, and also not needing constant reinforcement.

Reacting from strength, though, might mean that we see that we are not being allowed to expand our own abilities. It might mean that we think the instructor is teaching something wrong, or in contradiction to what we have already learned. It might mean that we truly are in advance of the rest of the group, and we really are spinning our tires.

If tween wants to go on and become competitive, she needs to learn both diplomacy, and enough true self-confidence that she is not irritated or upset or hurt by the ups and downs of praise and working in a group. But at the same time, she needs to be able to define what she needs to accomplish in order to achieve her goal, and to have some say in how she gets there.

What are her goals, and how does she feel she isn’t able to meet them in her lessons? Is she in a group lesson where exercises are kept too low for her level? Does she misunderstand the purpose of exercises, for instance the importance of flat work between jumps? Etc.

Have her write a list of all the things she finds frustrating and the things she finds useful in her lessons, and then a list of goals and whether she can find a way to meet them in her current situation. If she can’t, what does she need to meet them? She doesn’t have to show you her rough draft of this, but rather her ideas for moving forward.

Then you and her have a discussion, and if it seems productive, the three of you with her instructor (the one she likes). If tween wants to max out her competitive potential, what kind of time line does she need to be on? Does she need to be jumping a certain height by next year? If so, what are the steps to get there? Does she need to do more flat work, more jumps, more longe lessons, what? Where are the gaps in her riding? At what point will she truly outgrow these instructors and need to move on? What will she need to move on, and to be in a barn where she is smallest, youngest, least skilled, instead of a barn star? Can you send her to some clinics that might push her?

In other words, treat her as much as possible as you would an adult in this situation. Have her identify her goals, and discuss how to reach them in a realistic way. She might need more guidance in this process than an adult would, but it will help her think about her behavior and help the adults around her understand what she needs.[/QUOTE]

And of course, the other side of this is that pretty much every 12 year old who events has Rolex in their sights-- but unless you are independently wealthy you probably also have to start to help her understand that that is a long time in the future. I know that it was a huge blow for me to find out at 14 that even if I somehow magically acquired a qualified prelim horse, Young Riders wasn’t going to be feasible for my family, for example.

I’ve read the majority of the posts, but quit when I got to the one about how spanking a child is terrible and ruins lives. I don’t have kids, but I was your kid. So here is how I would handle me 15 years ago, this is also how my parents handled me and I’m a relatively successful adult now (relatively speaking. When are we ever classified as successful?)

At 12, I had 3 horses of my very own. Honestly, it could have been 4. I don remember. My family had money and I wanted to ride. So we had the horses I wanted. I wanted to jump so I had a jumper. I wanted to run barrels, I had a barrel horse. I wanted to do saddle seat, I had a saddle seat horse. My mom would hop on the saddle seat horse occasionally to trail ride with me. Still to this day she swears its her horse, but we all knew it was bought because little spoiled brat wanted to ride saddle seat (that’s me by the way. The spoiled brat is me). Despite me getting whatever I wanted, my horses were on self care board. I had to work to ride them. And then I had to work more because my parents were not paying for lessons. They payed for exactly 10 lessons and then said if this is what I wanted to do, they spoke with the trainer and I was able to work off my lessons and that’s what I would do. Even better, my horses weren’t stabled at my trainers, so here is how my day went. School day: 5am wake up. Go to barn, feed and turn out. Home by 6. Shower and head to school by 7:15. Get out of school head to barn to put horses up and feed again, do home work at barn (I was trusted to get home work done before I rode, but if we are being honest, I usually didn’t finish my home work before I rode. I’d feed, do a little bit, then ride, then finish homework. Pretty sure I should have ridden before I fed, but I wasn’t the most knowledgeable 12 yr old). 3 days during the school week, I’d have to do night feeding of trainers horses as well, so after I’m done with mine (roughly 6-630) I’d head to her barn to feed. Weekends, I slept in. 7 am at my barn to feed and turn out, 9 am at trainers barn for start helping in anyway I could. Cleaning stalls, cleaning tack, helping beginners tack up, anything that needed to be done. My lesson was usually after lunch, so around 1 or 2, I’d ride for an hour, then back to doing whatever needed to be done. Weekends, I fed night time as well, but always fed a little early because my horses still had to be ridden. So fed around 5, then off to my barn to ride at least 2, and clean stalls and feed.

Weekends I usually had a free pass to not do house work, but at home I was responsible for cleaning the living room and the kitchen as well as maintaining my room and laundry (only putting up. Despite how handy I was around the farm, I was not allowed to touch the washing machine!).

I honestly have no idea how I managed and am still alive to tell the tell.

My point of all that was, when I got in trouble (more often then I like to admit. I still have a mouth that I find hard to close. You guys have witnessed!), still had to go out and do all the work, but was never not once allowed to step foot in a stirrup. Which also ensured I didn’t have time for boys! And at 12, boys were the last thing on my mind.

If your daughter wants to stray from riding, she is going to do it regardless. Be the parent and make her suffer! She deserves it. All the advice given has been great, but she deserves to be punished. I’m not in the camp of “let’s talk it out and then all is well”. No! We will talk it out and you’re still grounded!

Good luck!

When I taught lessons (same age group as your DD) I had a time out system for exactly this scenario. Mouthing off, talking back, whining, and general unsportsmanlike/ unhorsemanlike behavior meant you would come stand in the middle of the ring while the rest of the group continued on with the lesson. This was not nap time either. There were random quiz questions and I would make them constructively critique the exercise at hand. It usually worked, and after 5 -10 min of watching their barn friends do a cool exercise I would say “now are you ready to go back out and be a good student and horseperson?” And they always said yes and followed through.

In this case I would consider grounding from riding, but not barn chores. Go out take care of pony, and come home. No play time for a week or two. If pony needs schooled, maybe have instructor ride or if there is a working student or talented junior that might be willing to pick up a handful of rides. I would make DD be there to learn from the other rider as well because it is a great tool to watch another good rider school your horse. We all do things a tad differently and can learn a lot from each other and pick up new tools.

Aunt, Great- and Great-Great Aunt of many Nieces/Nephews plus have been around loads of kids at different barns.

This is your chance to make a positive impact on your daughter who is at a tough time of life - not a kid, not yet a teen. Plus she is child #1 whose job is to train the parents for the other kids - only half kidding.

She over stepped acceptable grounds by getting mouthy with the trainer - that is simple. On top of that she has Rolex fever and is ready to win the world - not a bad ambition.

She definitely needs to apologize to trainer and everyone who witnessed the her actions. Agree with others she needs some time out of the saddle to think about her actions and attitude. Agree she needs to work around the barn - muck stalls/clean tack/set rails for trainer/scrub buckets, etc.
Have her read a book and provide a report for you and trainer. Choose from training books written by Geo Morrris (not the autobio), Wofford, M. Todd, KOC/DOC, Dutton or the book about the pony Stroller, Snowman or My Horses, My Trainers. Plus she needs to review the USEA (USEF) rulebook online to see the requirements to be eligible for Prelim - Advance just in the US. This will give her a realistic view of her stated dream.
Do this not to crush the dream but rather to make it real for her.
I like the idea of having her write down what she likes and dislikes about her current trainer. You need to watch and video some lessons so you both can see if her thoughts are correct. The video is a great way to prove if she is as good as she thinks or if she is really ready for the next trainer. If she need to improve her basics - then impress this upon her. Kim S’s mom made her ride well through 3rd level or higher before she could event - look at the pictures from Pine Top to see how that helped her. Others have been made to ride 30 minutes or more without stirrups before moving up levels.
She needs good basics if she wants to be successful in eventing and this carries over into other endeavors.
Be there to make certain she learns from this and grows into the fine young woman you want her to be. Help her to set goals, make “real” schedules, re-access and grow.
Finally be prepared for her changing her goals. She may be one of the many kids who move away from horses as they reach their mid-teens.
Make certain it is her goals and dreams that are being “supported.”
DH put his youngest daughter into ballet when she was age 5. Each year he asked her if she wanted to continue and let her know it was her decision. She did and eventually spend 10 years dancing with Baryshnikov at ABT before retiring herself. Using all that she learned to be a successful ballerina, she went to college and is now a very successful PT/manager with PHd husband and 3 kids.

Think about and talk with your daughter about long term plans. Many kids don’t realize that horse sports are a recreational activity. Most riders need real jobs to support their horses. I told my older daughter that we would support her goal of riding at Training level, competing about 6 times per year. We paid for a weekly lesson. Anything beyond that had to wait until she was a self supporting adult who was paying her own horse bill. She understood that she needed good grades and a career plan. Kids need to remember that horse ownership is a privilege.

[QUOTE=AKB;8673091]
Think about and talk with your daughter about long term plans. Many kids don’t realize that horse sports are a recreational activity. Most riders need real jobs to support their horses. I told my older daughter that we would support her goal of riding at Training level, competing about 6 times per year. We paid for a weekly lesson. Anything beyond that had to wait until she was a self supporting adult who was paying her own horse bill. She understood that she needed good grades and a career plan. Kids need to remember that horse ownership is a privilege.[/QUOTE]

As long as the current trainers are safe and competent, I certainly wouldn’t be switching trainers and rewarding her jerkiness any time soon.
Something else to consider, 12 year olds often confuse “jumping higher” or “jumping more” with working harder. I almost always do more in a clinic or one off lesson situation than I do with my regular trainer. Food for thought. I wouldn’t take her word for it that the other trainers are “better” for her goal of Rolex at 17. :slight_smile:

If she puts her big girl pants on and behaves like a respectful member of society and not a spoiled indulged asshat, maybe you revisit the trainer discussion in 6 months.

And no riding for at least a week. She should have to go to the barn and take care of her horse though.

Coming from a mom with a similar child… Sounds like she is being defiant because she knows she can get away with it. I’d call her on it… No lessons, no training no showing until she learns to stop mouthing off… Period! She must however go to barn and do barn chores, even if you are already paying board to barn to take care of horse. I also would make sure the pony is being ridden in some lessons during this period but NOT by your daughter, or ban her from the barn completely…for one whole week. Then if she does it again make it 2 weeks and so on…also if I were the instructor and she mouthed off to me, you and I would have a little talk and get it resolved or she would no longer be riding under my instruction. Your daughter needs to know that just Bc she has a horse it doesn’t justify treating others like crap. I see it a lot with kids who are given ponies and horses… They tend to get an entitlement attitude.

What I know is that no one ever got better in a sport by not being allowed to do it . Lots of ways to punish a kid besides not riding, horses are too expensive to let stand to prove a point .

Ehh, even as a professional with no kids I think some things are more important than sports.

That’s it! I finally figured out why I haven’t ridden in the olympics or been around Rolex yet … It was those couple forced weeks off from riding I had as a kid after mouthing off to my parents!