My kid is a jerk....

[Risuena]

I think there is a lot of great advice and have just a couple of things to add…

@joharavhf;8671303

I need to either nip this in the bud at the current barn or agree to move on.

I think this is a false dichotomy – I say you nip this in the bud regardless of whether you stay or move on. I saw your post saying you’ll be addressing it, and agree with you, but as some others have alluded to, these are two maybe related but still separate issues. Even if the barn isn’t right for her, that doesn’t give her a pass. Treat this as a learning opportunity to show her the right way to deal with the situation, whether valid or just her perceptions.

I joke that all the best parenting advice I’ve ever heard has come from Buck Brannaman. One phrase that crosses my mind frequently is “Do less, sooner”. I LOVE that concept and try to keep it in mind when working with my horse and my kids. Don’t wait until you have to “take horses away.” As you said, nip it in the bud, show her what your expectations are and follow through when they are not met.

[arlosmine]

First of all, get a game plan in place with the instructors. Your instructors are being doormats. I’m an instructor. If a kid mouths off to me, the lesson is over.

I start out with a warning:
“Sarah, you are being disrespectful. I am interested in your opinion, and I’d like to hear it, but people do not speak that way to each other on this property”.
The next time it happens (usually by that time I’ve talked to the parents about my next step) I say: “we’ve talked about this before. You are the student and I am the teacher. That means you do what I tell you to do and you do it politely. If you have a question about why I’d like you to do something a certain way, I’ll do my best to answer it…if you cannot work in that framework, your lesson is over and you can go home. You are welcome to come back with a different demeanor for your next lesson”.

Before I threaten to ditch the kid out of the lesson I run it by the parent first. Every time so far, the parents have given me the thumbs up to end the lesson of the kid does not shape up. A few times the parents, who had abdicated their role as an authority figure, were relieved to have some one else be the heavy. I told them that for that day, that the money they spent on the riding lesson was paying for a life lesson and they agreed.
I’ve also had to intervene with a girl who mouthed off to her mom in the barn. I asked her if they had EVER heard anyone speak to anyone or to a horse that way on the property before. She had to say “no”. I told her that that way of communicating is “not done here”. The mom was relived, and if she had not been, I would be okay with losing that client.

I’ve only had to have the kid dismount and leave the arena twice in twentyfive years. Doing it on the spot and dismissing them from the class is shocking and very effective. They hand me the horse and must walk out of the arena alone. No untacking, no hanging out. One of those times, the girl walked out into the aisle, and reappeared in the arena a few minutes later and very nicely apologized and asked if she could rejoin the class. She did and it never came up again.

Regardless of the family dynamic, it is the teacher’s responsibility to have standards of behavior in classes. My kids giggle a lot during class…we make jokes, and sometimes they get carried away like young girls will do, and have to be reminded to get back to the job at hand. But being disrespectful to horse or human is not tolerated. I do the same thing if a kid is rough or mean to a pony.

Also: If this kid is sharp and talented, and is not being challenged/pushed enough by her trainer, her behavior will be exacerbated. It’s no excuse for being disrespectful, but putting her with teachers without the skills to deal well with her will not work in the long haul. I was the question asker and it drove some trainers nuts. The best ones loved it.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

Honestly, I’d pay to have that child muck stalls, clean tack, and groom and tack horses for others. If she wants to be rude, she has to much a stall for every time she mouths off. Empower the trainer to pull her off the pony and sit her in the ring while the trainer schools the pony. She won’t keep mouthing off if she’s too tired to do so.

If she wants to be pushed, take her stirrups away. Make her do her entire lesson stirrup-less. Tell her riders at Rolex have to be able to jump stirrup-less if need be. Have her help the trainers set courses. Nothing like teaching her how hard the trainers she disrespects work on a regular basis.

[Equisis]

OP, you’ve gotten some excellent advice here. I will add that she may need help learning how to effectively communicate her questions and frustrations to her instructors. I am a question asker, always have been, and some trainers hated it. If I didn’t understand an instruction, I would ask for clarification, because I didn’t want to just succeed when someone was feeding me instructions, I wanted to understand the hows and whys of what was happening. Kids like this can very easily come across as disrespectful and argumentative, especially if they tend to be bratty to begin with, but some of her frustrations may be driven by an inability to communicate well with her instructors. It was very helpful for me as a kid to learn when it was appropriate to ask questions and how to ask them. She is not old enough or experienced enough to challenge or argue with them (nor is it particularly appropriate in most cases at any age) but questioning for the sake of more thorough understanding should absolutely be encouraged. Help her learn the difference.

[snowrider]

One thing I will say is that as I outgrew my early trainers I spoke to them and my mother about my desire to do bigger and better things. I was pretty scared to do it, I thought they would be mad at me or tell me no. Instead my instructor hired me as her groom. I groomed 16 horses a day at first and eventually began to ride more where I discovered I was not quite as hot $hit as I though I was. She threw me up on all the babies where I learned that I did not actually know much at all. She also taught me to handle stallions, foals and made me help the vet and farrier. I learned a LOT.

A couple years later when I was actually useful she got me a summer job as a working student/ groom with a really top pro, the assistant trainer to an Olympian we’ve all heard of. I didn’t expect to ride much but by then I knew the value of just working somewhere. After a month the assistant trainer fell off and broke her collar bone and the Olympian went out of town for the summer and I got to to ride some REALLY nice horses and get yelled at a lot by the assistant assistant trainer for the rest of the summer. I also started all the babies under saddle and was the only one on them for almost 120 days. It was the best. summer. ever.

There is a lot more to be learned about horses than just riding them.

[st_francis]

I wouldn’t take a way riding either . If you are serious about the horses and it sounds like you are then it is just disruptive. I take away my daughter’s phone Also if she has the drive but the instructors aren’t working for her maybe you should consider a change, the right people are key. If you had a horse that wasn’t working as well as you thought it should with a trainer you would probably move it , not tell it to behave better. That said, the child needs to not be a jerk .

I think a certain amount of arrogance is a good thing to have in this sport as long as you don’t let her turn into a monster. I never had it and neither does my daughter and I think it limits us both.

[DogIsMyCopilot]

I might be completely wrong (my kid is still a lot younger), but have you tried talking to your daughter about this? Kids are not dumb. They are often self-centred, but especially on an emotional level, they are usually very understanding.
I think I would try to see if you can get her to reach her own conclusion why being rude is a bad idea and why it hurts people (e.g. “Would you feel like working with someone who talked to you like that?”). And then let her come up with some suggestions how to make things right with the instructor / bo (e.g. apologize in person or in writing, do some extra work around the barn, volunteer herself and her pony to patiently teach a younger beginner kid how to lead/brush/pick out feet etc)

I think by just punishing like taking away things, her reaction might be resistance and anger about how stupid you are. If you manage that she figures out by herself where she went wrong and involve her in how to makr things right, you might have a more lasting learning effect.

[AKB]

I would not take away riding. Kids need the exercise and the emotional support that a pony can bring.

I would let her try a few lessons with any instructor of her choosing, as long as you agree that the instructor is safe and is a good choice/role model for a 12 year old. I might make her earn the money for half of each lesson or extra lessons over the once a month or whatever you want to pay. I would talk with her about manners and rehearse appropriate and inappropriate responses to stressful situations.

12 and 13 year olds can be hard. My one daughter was difficult at 13. At times, I took her phone access away, as well as all screen time. Once, my punishment for her was disconnecting the electricity to her room. Other times, we ate lots of food she didn’t like because I wasn’t going to bother cooking the favorite foods of a disrespectful child. My older daughter was very easy at that age. Some kids are harder than others.

[fordtraktor]

Maybe if you want to keep this instructor, OP, instead of giving permission to stop the lesson, you need to be more explicit. “Please don’t let my daughter talk to you that way. It isn’t doing her any favors. If she does it again I would appreciate it if you would end her lesson for the day and explain that her disrespectful tone is the cause. I really need your help to fix this. She needs to know it is NOT ok and I think this will help her understand better than if it comes from me.”

Which it does. We all know teenage girls roll their eyes at mom, most of us used to be teenage girls.

[yellowbritches]

Geez. Lots of softies here. Horses aren’t a right. They are a privledge that should be earned. Mouthing off would have gotten me pulled off a horse and out of the barn faster than I could shut my bratty little mouth. Of course, I also got my mouth washed out with soap for telling my big brother I hated him (I got a warning once…did it again, and sure as hell my dad followed through. And, you know what? I honestly can’t say I HATE anyone now! I learned early that words have power and meaning). I also had to do chores around the house to earn my riding lessons. Chores not done? Too bad. No lesson. Once I had my own horse, I paid for EVERYTHING. Privledge. Not a right. Yeah, the barn was my happy place and my horse (who is still in my backyard, almost 20 years later) was a great comfort for me as a teen, but that didn’t guarantee me anything if I was obnoxious.

[MsM]

LOL at those who are horrified at “taking the horse away” Can you tell this is a horse-related board? The suggestion was only for a week or two!
I agree with those who feel there needs to be a discussion and a small consequence (which I consider a week without barn time) to address the behavior. Instructors need to be spoken to as well.

On the idea of her asking questions: sometimes this is disruptive too. I have seen students who like to slam on the brakes and discuss theory rather than, you know, riding! And of course, the tone of the question is important too.It can be a problem especially in a group lesson. She may need to defer some questions until a break in the lesson and not be upset if every question is not answered immediately. This is assuming she does not have big concerns about safety or big negative impacts.

I would be tempted to discuss changing instructors by her earning that change. If she is respectful and accomplishes Goal A she can change if she still wants to. It might also help if mom can discreetly watch a lesson to see what kind of match her daughter and the instructor are.

[theotherdasher]

I would make her be a groom for her barn mates at the next few events.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=joharavhf;8671353]
Trubandloki,

My parents took my horse away when I was a kid - caused me to go find enjoyment elsewhere as in boys. Eventually I got back into it but I generally don’t think taking riding away is a good thing. It also causes issues with the horse (IMO). He needs to work which means I’m going to have to find someone ride him - which means I have to shell out $$$. Also, I’m trying to instill in her that horses are a “sometimes” thing. So this goes against it.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t read through all the responses. If she is grounded, she won’t turn to boys because the level of disrespect she has shown would equal no lessons, coming home after school, curfew, closely monitored social situations.

Right now, this is disrespect toward instructors. It could turn into disrespect towards peers, teachers, and in the future employers.

You need to nip this in the bud. A CTJ discussion (not physical, to be clear) about what expectations are to be a solid citizen that EARNS AND DESERVES the PRIVLEGES she is allowed.

Don’t raise the next generation of the world owes me a favor and I can act as I like. Because she can’t.

This isn’t just about riding at this point. You are helping her formulate behaviors for her entire life. You may have to be the big, mean parent and THAT’S OK. She is not your friend. She is your kid. Start acting like it.

[monstrpony]

The needs of her riding education (new instructor or not) and the needs to correct her behavior are very separate issues. The behavior needs to be fixed, regardless of what happens with her riding and instruction.

If the pony has two weeks off, he gets behind in his work and condition. That will limit what she can do in terms of shows and events. The long-term consequences of her behavior may be that she misses a few shows. Don’t let your desire for her to show get in the way of her seeing the big picture consequences of her miss-behavior.

If you really feel the pony can’t go without work, then let the instructor use him in lessons, and let her see or hear about her friends riding her pony while she sits out her two weeks.

Don’t let your own ambitions for her to show get in the way of raising your child.

If you’re concerned about her finding “other interests” you have control of that at this age; in a few years, you might have less control of it. I’m sure if you look back, you can find where your parents missed the boat in allowing you to find those other interests at the expense of learning your lesson (the reason your riding privileges were suspended).

[Tory]

I haven’t read every response, but it sounds like your daughter knows she has you between a rock and a hard place.

Not to be snarky, but the OP has basically said that this kid can act like a spoiled brat and she won’t take away the horse/barn time. I’m sure her daughter is quite aware of this.

As a kid/teenager my horse was a privilege that could be yanked at a moment’s notice. I knew this and got good grades in school, helped around the house, etc. Sure I was a teenager, but never to the extent that my mom or dad were going to stop letting me ride and compete.

If the horses are REALLY important to your daughter she will behave correctly to keep them. But if the horses are just something to pass the time, well you aren’t going to win this game.

One question would be what is her passion for the horses? I would be quite content to sit for hours and just watch them in the pasture. Riding was the icing on the cake, being with them was the most important.

[Winding_Down]

One problem with taking riding away, and lessons in particular, is that she does not have the opportunity to learn and correct her behaviors.

I would take something else away, and then monitor her behaviors closely in the barn, providing immediate feedback and consequences for inappropriate behaviors. For example, if she makes a snarky comment to an instructor during a lesson, then she is required to sit on her pony, on the sidelines for xx number of minutes, and then is required to apologize after the “time out” and then continue.

The sit on the sidelines time period could be just a couple of minutes while her peers get to jump some cool jumps, or whatever.

And the apology is something that she can learn to do correctly.

[Stacie]

[QUOTE=Grasshopper;8671480]

If she is otherwise respectful, that indicates to me that she has some specific frustrations with the situation/people and doesn’t know how to express and deal with them appropriately. Just punishment, without making it a real learning experience, may backfire as she may shut down in future, nurture resentment, etc. [/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I was thinking. She is not being heard so now she is acting out.
She is 12. She sounds bright and ambitious. You have an excellent opportunity to show her how to move forward with her “goals” even in a situation that she has no control over and clearly doesn’t want to be in (ie the instructors she doesn’t like to work with)
Talk to her. Hear her. Set expectations. Help her figure out how to meet those expectations. (hmm. sounds like horse training to me) At this point, I personally don’t think punishment is warranted. But outlining consequences of not meeting expectations, once the two of you have worked out a plan, is.

[WasthatC]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8671520]
I said something disrespectful in a lesson ONCE when I was 12 or 13-- not even to my trainer, but to my mom in front of my trainer. My trainer said very firmly that we were done for the day, goodbye. It made a huge impression on me-- more than twenty years later I still remember what a jackass I felt like.[/QUOTE]
One of my friends had a rule for her daughter - “We are not at this show for me. If you whine or complain one time we go home.”

It’s easy, even as an adult to lose perspective on how priveledged we all are to have horses in our lives.

OP, I give you huge kudos for recognizing you have an issue. Your husband is right, no riding the pony for two weeks. And everyone else is right that she still needs to clean tack, groom, pick out manure - and maybe just watch you ride the pony!

[jetsmom]

I agree with having her write apology letters, and taking away riding for 2 weeks. Have the trainer have her clean stalls or tack or longe pony if needed, but personally, I’d have her at home cleaning the house, doing laundry, weeding, washing you cars, etc.
Removing riding for 2 weeks will not make her turn to boys, unless she doesn’t value riding. But you can’t parent from a position of fear. That is going to make you have a huge problem of being manipulated. Teens are already masters of manipulation so you don’t need to encourage it or reward it.

[Foxtrot_s]

The only time I would have yanked my kid off her horse was if she were to yank him in the mouth or show temper to the pony. I taught Pony Club and had a couple of similar kids, they were grounded for a session, but I am a softie and loved the kids - seemed to work for me. The team aspect of PC in front of their peers has an effect to pull together.

All my kids were workers, considerate and know the meaning of words. Myself, at boarding school, found I resented the teachers who were quick to punish, but for the kinder teachers, I worked my butt off.