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Mystery Hindend Issues

6yo ottb, 8 months of down time before being restarted in May. Started slow and steady. Pretty much issues since day one of trot work. Have done everything under the sun, ulcer treatment, lyme test, chiro, farrier trim changed, changed feed, different saddles, different bridles, different bits, different riders, dentist, sheath cleaning, kissing spine xray, drugs (to keep him calm after chiro adjustment so it had a better chance to set, also to knock out the possibly of it just being a mental issue.)

We had the vet out to do flexions, sound (over a month ago), and a very reputable chiro out to weeks ago. - said his croup/back end was a mess. Adjusted stuff mostly on the left side of his body (si, few ribs, some neck.). Basically told me he was lucky to not have broken down on the track.

Started him today on a pill a day of previcox for the next week. Vet is agreeing, pain at this point. Being on all the drugs he’s on (Reserpine + a tube of calm & cool prior to riding.) isn’t preventing the outbursts, but is giving me a better idea of what sets them off . . . Going to the right you basically get two-three laps of trotting with warnings and then he breaks out into a sideways canter … no matter where you are in the ring or how you try to correct it/ride him through it. Right before the outburst you’ll feel him swing his haunches in, but stay straight through the middle back/shoulder/neck. If you ignore it, you get cantering sideways, if you correct it and straighten him back out, you get cantering sideways. If you are walking him on a small figure eight, left to right he shortens. Can’t figure out where in his body he is doing it, but he definitely shortens. If you walk to the left and put inside leg on he attempts to lift, takes the leg and eventually relaxes into it. Do it to the other side with the right leg and you get head tossing, changes in breathing, jigging, etc. Something is also definitely off in his back end, today I noticed some atrophy in his right hip between butt point and croup.

He wants to go with his hips/butt to the right. Which is why I suspect he’s better to the left. He can get away with drifting his haunches out to an extent. To the right I feel it instantly and go to correct and straight, that is when you get the cantering sideways.

Today while the BO was watching and commenting on things I remembered something and put it together . . . Maybe . . . a month into working him under saddle I started adding in canter work. First day was non eventful and short (just a quick canter one way for a few circles). Second day he took off blindly with me for laps on end. I still don’t know how to this day I stayed on. Ended up running him into a wall after everything else failed. NOTHING I tried worked and I tried everything . . . It was the right lead canter. He tipped his butt in and wanted to counter bend/go straight, so I asked him to readjust himself more up off his shoulder and to stop putting his butt in. Proceeded to bolt at this, would not slow down, and BLINDLY ran through a jump standard. Didn’t even so much as try and dodge it, didn’t bat an eye, didn’t break stride, in fact ran faster. At the time, figured he was just being piggish and lacked respect, so ceased canter work and decided to focus more on the trot at the time. Now I suspect that was all from pain and is exactly the same injury/problem I am dealing with now.

This is a short clip from yesterday walking away from the camera under saddle. To me, if you focus on the right hind, when he’s going to the left, he’s twisting it or something and pushing off the outside edge.

https://youtu.be/E7-q6uCIDVY

Video clip of what he presents to the right:

https://www.instagram.com/p/8EYctuzHwa/

Some other random things

*Tracks up fully on right side, misses on left.
*Wear marks on inside of front left boot/bellboot.
*Used to not stand square to urinate - hind left under him - seems to be squaring up a bit better after chiro work.
*Retired from racing due to inflammation on the front left superficial flexor, rested and still protected galloping despite trotting out sound, so was retired. (or so I as told)
*Kicked a lot hen I got him, mostly hind right from what we can remember. Went away once in work.
*Hind right hoof grows/wears upright, almost clubbed looking as my farrier put it. Hind left grows more typical of the TB, long in the toe and underrun in the heel.
*Supposedly slipped in field two months prior to my purchasing him (unknown to me - didn’t find out about this until recently), developed a hematoma on right stifle that required a drain to be put in.

I am sure I am forgetting things.

Anyone have any ideas??? I am at an absolute loss at this point and am reaching the end of options and so is he.

[QUOTE=JJ;8414957]
6yo ottb, 8 months of down time before being restarted in May. Started slow and steady. Pretty much issues since day one of trot work. Have done everything under the sun, ulcer treatment, lyme test, chiro, farrier trim changed, changed feed, different saddles, different bridles, different bits, different riders, dentist, sheath cleaning, kissing spine xray, drugs (to keep him calm after chiro adjustment so it had a better chance to set, also to knock out the possibly of it just being a mental issue.)

We had the vet out to do flexions, sound (over a month ago), and a very reputable chiro out to weeks ago. - said his croup/back end was a mess. Adjusted stuff mostly on the left side of his body (si, few ribs, some neck.). Basically told me he was lucky to not have broken down on the track.

Started him today on a pill a day of previcox for the next week. Vet is agreeing, pain at this point. Being on all the drugs he’s on (Reserpine + a tube of calm & cool prior to riding.) isn’t preventing the outbursts, but is giving me a better idea of what sets them off . . . Going to the right you basically get two-three laps of trotting with warnings and then he breaks out into a sideways canter … no matter where you are in the ring or how you try to correct it/ride him through it. Right before the outburst you’ll feel him swing his haunches in, but stay straight through the middle back/shoulder/neck. If you ignore it, you get cantering sideways, if you correct it and straighten him back out, you get cantering sideways. If you are walking him on a small figure eight, left to right he shortens. Can’t figure out where in his body he is doing it, but he definitely shortens. If you walk to the left and put inside leg on he attempts to lift, takes the leg and eventually relaxes into it. Do it to the other side with the right leg and you get head tossing, changes in breathing, jigging, etc. Something is also definitely off in his back end, today I noticed some atrophy in his right hip between butt point and croup.

He wants to go with his hips/butt to the right. Which is why I suspect he’s better to the left. He can get away with drifting his haunches out to an extent. To the right I feel it instantly and go to correct and straight, that is when you get the cantering sideways.

Today while the BO was watching and commenting on things I remembered something and put it together . . . Maybe . . . a month into working him under saddle I started adding in canter work. First day was non eventful and short (just a quick canter one way for a few circles). Second day he took off blindly with me for laps on end. I still don’t know how to this day I stayed on. Ended up running him into a wall after everything else failed. NOTHING I tried worked and I tried everything . . . It was the right lead canter. He tipped his butt in and wanted to counter bend/go straight, so I asked him to readjust himself more up off his shoulder and to stop putting his butt in. Proceeded to bolt at this, would not slow down, and BLINDLY ran through a jump standard. Didn’t even so much as try and dodge it, didn’t bat an eye, didn’t break stride, in fact ran faster. At the time, figured he was just being piggish and lacked respect, so ceased canter work and decided to focus more on the trot at the time. Now I suspect that was all from pain and is exactly the same injury/problem I am dealing with now.

This is a short clip from yesterday walking away from the camera under saddle. To me, if you focus on the right hind, when he’s going to the left, he’s twisting it or something and pushing off the outside edge.

https://youtu.be/E7-q6uCIDVY

Video clip of what he presents to the right:

https://www.instagram.com/p/8EYctuzHwa/

Some other random things

*Tracks up fully on right side, misses on left.
*Wear marks on inside of front left boot/bellboot.
*Used to not stand square to urinate - hind left under him - seems to be squaring up a bit better after chiro work.
*Retired from racing due to inflammation on the front left superficial flexor, rested and still protected galloping despite trotting out sound, so was retired. (or so I as told)
*Kicked a lot hen I got him, mostly hind right from what we can remember. Went away once in work.
*Hind right hoof grows/wears upright, almost clubbed looking as my farrier put it. Hind left grows more typical of the TB, long in the toe and underrun in the heel.
*Supposedly slipped in field two months prior to my purchasing him (unknown to me - didn’t find out about this until recently), developed a hematoma on right stifle that required a drain to be put in.

I am sure I am forgetting things.

Anyone have any ideas??? I am at an absolute loss at this point and am reaching the end of options and so is he.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t read that you did scintigraphy (bone scan). Had a similar issue with a horse and it was an injury to his sacroiliac.

Also a bit out there but I recently have had great experience with a holistic vet that does Nutritional Muscle testing - kinesiology. She is also a Western Med Vet and does Holistic care and natural balance treatments. I have owned horses for over 40 years so this is new to me and so far have been impressed with the results.

I was at a dead end with one of my horses and so far her treatments are helping. I had her do my other horse and he’s doing great too. Some say there is no scientific evidence it is legitimate… but there are times you just need to try something else if everything you have tried isn’t working.

Good luck - sounds like your horse has some issues. I hope you can figure out how to help him feel his best.

Has the vet mentioned SI injections?? Just a thought…

Check out this thread.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?306538-SI-injection-if-only-someone-had-told-me-this-five-years-ago-update-post-102&highlight=sacro

I had a horse who ran into things blindly. After much searching, we discovered that she was a Wobbler (had a narrowing of her spinal cord in her neck), and the hind end was a red herring. It was not where the problem was – but the signals being sent to the hind end were stopped/confused from the cervical spine.

The blindly running into thing occurred because she had no control over the back end of her body and could not do anything to prevent it.

I am sure your vet has considered that since you have been so thorough, but I thought I would throw it out there.

I would probably not ride this horse until you can get a true diagnosis. I might be suspicious of pelvis injury if he had a bad fall.

What does he do if you try lungeing or ground work?

You have done quite a lot to try to sort him out. I hope you find some answers.

Hope the Prevocox helps him. Sounds like he’s been through a lot. All the research and mystery becomes a full time job after a while

After watching the videos, if I could afford it I would have a bone scan done of the whole horse. When he does try to canter straight he wants to swap leads behind. He is VERY sore. I would also be absolutely sure his feet are in proper balance, paying special attention to his hind feet.

And I agree keyfins, no more riding, unless light hacking at a walk until you have a diagnosis. No sense to keep insisting he stay in work if he’s in pain… and he is.

[QUOTE=BoyleHeightsKid;8415309]
After watching the videos, if I could afford it I would have a bone scan done of the whole horse. When he does try to canter straight he wants to swap leads behind. He is VERY sore. I would also be absolutely sure his feet are in proper balance, paying special attention to his hind feet.

And I agree keyfins, no more riding, unless light hacking at a walk until you have a diagnosis. No sense to keep insisting he stay in work if he’s in pain… and he is.[/QUOTE]

Bonescan unfortunely is not an option financially. My vet quoted me $3k-$4k to take him to the local clinic to have it done. And that without even knowing if whatever the issue is fixable.

The whole pain about the situation is that he gets bad when he’s not in work (mentally). He gets himself in trouble, gets injured, gets ramy and cranky and starts kicking walls and fences. -.- So to toss him out in a pasture for six months isn’t even an option (mentally for him or fonacially for me) . . . and I don’t think would fix the problem as I am fairly certain it was there when I purchased him and he hadn’t done anything for eight months.

[QUOTE=BoyleHeightsKid;8415019]
Has the vet mentioned SI injections?? Just a thought…

Check out this thread.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?306538-SI-injection-if-only-someone-had-told-me-this-five-years-ago-update-post-102&highlight=sacro[/QUOTE]

This was my first thought as well. This very could be low back/SI pain. You cannot x-ray this part of the spine as the muscling is too thick. I would at least try an SI injection. FWIW, my lameness vet recommends SI injection be done with u/s guidance and with a front and back approach.

Have you done any blocking yet? I read through and it sounds like you’ve only had the vet do flexions so far?

Mine just rehabbed from SI, and let me tell you, I spent $$$ and time trying to get it diagnosed. I think I could recognize it in my own horse now that I’ve seen it, but had a number of people with good eyes who couldn’t quite put their finger on what the issue was in the hind end. We started off blocking from toe to stifle, including high suspensory, with no results.

FWIW, I did have his SI injected (twice) using ultrasound guidance at the vet clinic. Got good results the first time, but didn’t last. Second time no improvement. Ended up having to send for a bone scan anyway (was suggested before first SI injection but I took a chance). Turns out it was SI, but a ligament injury that required rest and rehab.

The scan wasn’t nearly that much for me (Ontario at OVC - University of Guelph) - half of what you were quoted, and in $CAN.

I know it’s a larger upfront cost, but right now you’re spending board money on a horse who is clearly not right and who probably shouldn’t be ridden right now. You’re spending money on chiro, drugs, etc and still have a horse that isn’t sound.

Having gone through this, I strongly suggest you stop riding him and save up for the diagnostics.

I suppose if you don’t want to spend the money for the scan though, that you could just follow a rehab protocol - ie. stall rest, handwalking, slow rehab back into work. The problem (if it works) is that you have no idea what was wrong and how to prevent it from coming back. If it doesn’t work, you’re no further ahead and still have an unsound horse.

i would inject the SI and see if it gets you anywhere.

Yep, if you can’t afford the bone scan, I would be looking at SI injections.

If he gets cranky when not in work can he be kicked outside and maybe given a calming supplement? I don’t see any benefit in keeping this horse in work until you have a diagnosis. It obviously hurts him. Even in the video after 2 days off and 3 days of Robaxin. He seems “better” but is still bothered, as seen by his tail swishing and still does not appear happy.

Carrying haunches to the right and having difficulty with the right lead is not uncommon in an OTTB. Running is also not uncommon at first. The blind running is a problem. With the atrophy behind, my guess would be his slip and fall did more than just bang up that stifle, and there’s a pelvic problem. And/or it’s a neck issue (since you have already checked back for KS).

I want to say the quote included the overnight fees, and what the “average” cost of xrays/ultrasound etc run after the bonescan pinpoints an area.

Not sure if drugging and tossing him a field would work - the reserpine he’s on right now hardly had any effect at all after 3 days . . . which is why he’s also getting calm & cool on top of it.

Yes, SI has always been in the back of my head and was briefly discussed with my vet. Does anyone know how much the injections run?? I know they’re pricier than your run of the mill hock injections.

I also agree with whoever said pelvic issues from the slip. The seller did not inform me of it until two months ago when I asked point blank. IMO, she knows more than what she’s letting on. (Just from talking with other people who have dealt with her).

Perhaps speak with your vet about using Prozac while he is on stall rest. It can make a positive difference. There are a couple of recent threads about it.

Any riding would not seem prudent, for your safety as well as the horse’s safety.

[QUOTE=keysfins;8415775]
Perhaps speak with your vet about using Prozac while he is on stall rest. It can make a positive difference. There are a couple of recent threads about it.

Any riding would not seem prudent, for your safety as well as the horse’s safety.[/QUOTE]

Yes, my horse is on stall rest and using Prozac. It’s not a miracle drug, but it helps.

I don’t think you could use it in conjunction with reserpine due to risk of seizures. It also can’t be mixed with Ace. But it can be used along with some other sedatives safely, though not the kind I’d have a horse ridden or turned out on.

THIS is very intriguing and I would love to know more about this. Could you share contact info, please. Along those lines, take a look at the book by Jim Masterson or Jean Marie Denoix and Jean Pierre Pailloux, which is very interesting. QUOTE=doublesstable;8414987]I didn’t read that you did scintig
raphy (bone scan). Had a similar issue with a horse and it was an injury to his sacroiliac.

Also a bit out there but I recently have had great experience with a holistic vet that does Nutritional Muscle testing - kinesiology. She is also a Western Med Vet and does Holistic care and natural balance treatments. I have owned horses for over 40 years so this is new to me and so far have been impressed with the results.

I was at a dead end with one of my horses and so far her treatments are helping. I had her do my other horse and he’s doing great too. Some say there is no scientific evidence it is legitimate… but there are times you just need to try something else if everything you have tried isn’t working.

Good luck - sounds like your horse has some issues. I hope you can figure out how to help him feel his best.[/QUOTE]

Sorry this is going to be long…

First I’ll give you some background on my boy to kinda see how it relates to your horse. Barrel horse hind end slip during turn. Nothing super dramatic compared to other falls. No limping or lameness afterwards, fast forward 2 months. He started bowing out during his turns, not using his hind end like he usually does. Of course since he wasn’t limping I didn’t think it was automatically a soreness problem. It gradually got worse, few more months went by and he started rearing when I asked for collection or wanting him to really dig in. Then at races he bolted and completely stopped turning at all. Sent him to see 2 different vets…NOTHING. I couldn’t even warm this horse up without it being dangerous for not only myself but those around me. Sent him to a 3rd vet out of state who said he highly suggests SI injections that there is something going on his pelvis. (Didn’t have a strong enough Ultrasound to do rectal exam to see ligaments). I inject SIs (which were about $150 each side) and do the protocol he suggested. About 3 months later I had my happy horse again. Back to running like normal. The injections lasted about 2 years, then he started bowing out again so I stopped immediately. At that time some life changes happened and I stopped riding for 10 months. When I finally brought him back he was stronger than ever. I was more than excited about this running machine that was ready to race again. (It was a little over 3 years since injections now) Took 3 races for him to go back to bolting and missing the barrel. Sent him to out of state vet again (new since other retired). She said she is positive in that little slip multiple years ago he either fractured his pelvis or tore his sacral ligament. That he needs 1 - 1 1/2 years off for it to really heal. The injections were a bandaid overall, the time is what he needed. I’m on month 8 right now and it is killing me. He is just like yours, busy body that needs the mental stimulation.

I absolutely think it is a pelvic problem, could be bone, soft tissue or both! The bolt is from pain, I would definitely stop riding him for your safety and for his benefit. The SI injections definitely helped, but I certainly would give him some time off.
Pelvis injuries are awful to deal with. No blatant signs and they take a long time to heal. I tried the previcox, acuscope, massage, chiro, magna wave everything I could afford. But in the end I think it’s just time that works.
I don’t know if yours has the issue, but my gelding has very tight, hard hind quarter muscles, especially his hamstrings. Would be curious to know if yours did too. I used the Back On Track sheet to help with that. It make quite a difference!

Good luck! it is so frustrating.

[QUOTE=JJ;8415745]
I want to say the quote included the overnight fees, and what the “average” cost of xrays/ultrasound etc run after the bonescan pinpoints an area.

Not sure if drugging and tossing him a field would work - the reserpine he’s on right now hardly had any effect at all after 3 days . . . which is why he’s also getting calm & cool on top of it.

Yes, SI has always been in the back of my head and was briefly discussed with my vet. Does anyone know how much the injections run?? I know they’re pricier than your run of the mill hock injections.

I also agree with whoever said pelvic issues from the slip. The seller did not inform me of it until two months ago when I asked point blank. IMO, she knows more than what she’s letting on. (Just from talking with other people who have dealt with her).[/QUOTE]

About $500 for u/s guided, front and back approach.

I bought a lemon in March myself. Still working on making lemonade. He’s lucky he’s cute!

[QUOTE=JJ;8415745]
I want to say the quote included the overnight fees, and what the “average” cost of xrays/ultrasound etc run after the bonescan pinpoints an area.

Not sure if drugging and tossing him a field would work - the reserpine he’s on right now hardly had any effect at all after 3 days . . . which is why he’s also getting calm & cool on top of it.

Yes, SI has always been in the back of my head and was briefly discussed with my vet. Does anyone know how much the injections run?? I know they’re pricier than your run of the mill hock injections.

I also agree with whoever said pelvic issues from the slip. The seller did not inform me of it until two months ago when I asked point blank. IMO, she knows more than what she’s letting on. (Just from talking with other people who have dealt with her).[/QUOTE]

About $500 for u/s guided, front and back approach.

I bought a lemon in March myself. Still working on making lemonade. He’s lucky he’s cute!