Natural Horsemanship... grrr! *Rant, sorry*

[NEHunter]

[QUOTE=slc2;4227252]
No, actually, there is a particular problem with Natural horsemanship, it attracts far more slavish and far rigider and more insistent and arrogant culties than any other type of riding, they are far more ready to decide what other people’s horses should be subjected to, far more likely to feel it is their god given right to foist it on other poeople’s horses, and far more likely to spend pages and pages trying to convince everyone that NH is great and everyone who ain’t drunk the coolaid is all wrong about it, and NH is what they need and yadda yadda yadda. Natural horsemanship is a cult religion, other types of riding are fei or usef divisions or classes at horse shows.[/QUOTE]

I so agree with you! My personal take is the NH is for non violence and creating a partnership with your horse but people take it to far.
I have a friend that is a NH know it all and is ticked off that I cross tie my horse, that is just BS.

[JB]

@narcisco;4229426

That is the point exactly. Perhaps the others DO know how to make and mount a wooden saddle rack, but choose not to. Yet they are devalued and told they are wrong.

---

Nope you’re not getting it. I don’t care if someone knows that a homemade wooden saddle rack has the same function as a store-bought metal one, yet still chooses to not use one. I don’t care if someone understands what Pat’s games are for and chooses not to use them as packaged.

What many here have said, what slc outright said, is that the games are only about the human, never about actually training the horse, and that is just wrong. It’s not my opinion that it’s wrong, it’s just wrong.

There are so many incorrect statements thrown around about NH in general, including the ever-popular “it’s all about chasing the horse around a round pen until he’s too tired to do anything else but stand still” and that is what I have a problem with.

YOU, you and many others here would be jumping all over someone who comes around and says Dressage is all about cranking a horse in with big bits and goosing him forward with big spurs. Why? Because it’s wrong. It doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen, because it does. But having something happen in a discipline doesn’t make the discipline all about that thing. You wouldn’t really give a rat’s hiney if that person still chose to not like Dressage, but you’d really like to set the record straight about what good, real Dressage is all about.

[JB]

@NEHunter;4229456

I so agree with you! My personal take is the NH is for non violence and creating a partnership with your horse but people take it to far.

And you know what, I agree! But ALL good training is about that - non-violence and creating a partnership with your horse.

ALL areas of horse ownership take that too far. There are folks who don’t know what NH is, let alone Pat or Clint or Monty, yet they treat their horses like dogs and create giant dangerous “pets” because they don’t want to resort to “violence” in disciplining them. It doesn’t take a misguided NH person to do that, you just latch on to the NH wannabe because they gave themselves a label.

I have a friend that is a NH know it all and is ticked off that I cross tie my horse, that is just BS.

Agree, it IS BS, but NH didn’t teach her to think crossties are evil, that’s just something she made up all on her own.

Trust me, I DO understand where NH leaves a bad taste in your mouth, because there are some IDIOTS out there doing stuff in the name of NH. Stuff they have no business doing either at their level, or at all. They mis-interpret a LOT of what they see or hear and make it something it was never intended to be. Heck, they even make up stuff and think it should be part of NH :rolleyes:

But that happens everywhere. One can only judge something by what they see, I agree, but given that there are numbnuts all over the place perhaps you should be looking at what they do as what they do, and think perhaps it’s not what NH is supposed to be about. Going back to the Dressage example, I’m sure you would try to enlighten that person that just because that is the only experience with Dressage, even if it was a barnfull of people, or all the barns in their area, that doesn’t mean that’s the good stuff, the right stuff, and they shouldn’t judge the entire discipline based on that.

[NEHunter]

JB totally agree with you on your outlook.

[whitesage]

Just say no to disciplinism

JB-
I got through page 2 of this thread before giving up on reading the entire thing. Life’s too short. But I felt it important to say somewhere in here that it’s very upsetting to see so many people jumping to conclusions - both the OP, as well as the guy she wrote about, not to mention the gazillion commenters after that.

I did dressage for 10 years, was starting to ride Second Level when I quit. Then I took 10 years off from horses and when I came back, it was doing Natural Horsemanship, mainly Parelli. I can’t tell you how many things Parelli has taught me that I am thankful for. Ten years of dressage lessons never prepared me for dealing with horses that were difficult to load in the trailer, or panicky in cross-ties, or touchy about picking up their hooves. I learned a lot of that while doing Parelli clinics and studying those DVD’s.

I’ve also seen some very cringe-worthy things done with horses in the name of “Parelli.” And Clinton Anderson. And Monty Roberts.

The point is, I don’t make assumptions. I don’t assume that everyone else coming out of dressage barns are as clueless as I was about getting horses onto a trailer when they don’t want to load. I don’t assume that people who do dressage are eeevil and should get a carrotstick already. I don’t assume everyone with an orange stick is carrying an ‘idiot symbol’ either.

In the US we’ve decided all people have equal rights regardless of their gender, race, religion, marital status, etc. I really hope someday people can extend this to disciplines in the horse world too. I think we should make judgments about individuals based in their ABILITIES not their labels or disciplines. That goes for the wacko guy discussed in the first post, as well as all the commenters willing to bash everyone doing Natural Horsemanship because of him.

Thank JB for saying basically that, and a little more succinctly. I haven’t been on the forums long and hesitated to say anything. Glad you said it first…it’s always nice to see others with a more balanced view.

[RougeEmpire]

[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4228199]
If you agree with Cesar Milan, and other people who have the “dominance” and herd dynamics theory of training. Maybe you should read this, have a look at other side. Don’t just jump to conclusions on a theory because it sounds good and its endorsed by someone on the TV.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

You may also find this link to the official AVSAB position dominance theory interesting:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf[/QUOTE]

Have you ever dealt with an aggressive or dominate dog? The fact is people who think CM is “a big meanie” have never dealt with the kind of dogs he handles. I have had these kind of dogs, waving cookies and making kissie face does not fix the problem. My friend has a NASTY lab mix that will bite, lunge at people and established OWNERSHIP of everything in the house. They work with her by bribing with “cookies”, it just makes her worse. Most people REWARD a dog for dangerous, aggressive or dominate behavior. Most people to to under educated to even safely own a dog! People who treat dogs like CHILDREN and NOT like dogs create monsters. CM knows how dogs think, he knows the dynamics of a good pack structure. Again I HAVE worked with dominate and aggressive dogs most of my life. No cookies, no kissie wissy, no wuuuuuuuuv none of that BS that does nothing and dogs don’t understand. Dogs are DOGS not people and needs to be handled like dogs, especially dogs that BITE and attack. Its easy to sit there and say “omg what a meanie!” but those same people would NEVER get anywhere near an aggressive or dominate dog that viciously snarling, lunging and attacking. Its easy for people to judge when they have only ever owned Foo-Foo Doggie who has never BEEN an aggressive or dominate dog. I would like to these people handle and train an aggressive and dominate dog, which after the “cookies” and “kisses” would end in failure and likely a trip to the ER.

[GettingBack]

Oy vey.

I agree with JB - the horses need to learn to deal. I’m tired of riding horses that people need to have utter silence and stillness around. I’m tired of riding “well trained” horses that will dump me on my back if a kid jogs around the arena. Those are not well trained horses. THOSE are the trick ponies.

Yes, what the NH “gurus” preach (not the wannabe followers, the actual real live clinicians) is training. Not special training. Not fancy training. Just plain ol’ training.

Yes, wannabe followers of ANY discipline are annoying, can be dangerous, and intrusive (in fact, I would say most horsepeople are like this…sorry - but we, as a crew, tend to be judgemental, hypercritical and “overly helpful”)

In fact, I think that most horsepeople are at their absolute worst during their second year of horse ownership (this is not counting people who have leased a horse for many years). They seem to “know” what’s best for you, your horse, and the world, but without the real expertise to know what it’s really about.

These people - these annoying-in-your-face-lack-of-knowledge people - have always been a part of the horseworld. My hope is that NH gurus have made things more accessible to people who do not have access to that real “old cowboy” that many of us did (I had one as a first trainer - he was fantastic!).

Yes, PP has good marketers. His games are really just training games, but he did a great job, IMO, of making them easy for HUMANS to understand. Because it’s hard to teach people to have horse sense, if they don’t have it innately.

Okay, </rant>, continue with your regularly scheduled bashing.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants]

[QUOTE=RougeEmpire;4229691]
Have you ever dealt with an aggressive or dominate dog? The fact is people who think CM is “a big meanie” have never dealt with the kind of dogs he handles. I have had these kind of dogs, waving cookies and making kissie face does not fix the problem. My friend has a NASTY lab mix that will bite, lunge at people and established OWNERSHIP of everything in the house. They work with her by bribing with “cookies”, it just makes her worse. Most people REWARD a dog for dangerous, aggressive or dominate behavior. Most people to to under educated to even safely own a dog! People who treat dogs like CHILDREN and NOT like dogs create monsters. CM knows how dogs think, he knows the dynamics of a good pack structure. Again I HAVE worked with dominate and aggressive dogs most of my life. No cookies, no kissie wissy, no wuuuuuuuuv none of that BS that does nothing and dogs don’t understand. Dogs are DOGS not people and needs to be handled like dogs, especially dogs that BITE and attack. Its easy to sit there and say “omg what a meanie!” but those same people would NEVER get anywhere near an aggressive or dominate dog that viciously snarling, lunging and attacking. Its easy for people to judge when they have only ever owned Foo-Foo Doggie who has never BEEN an aggressive or dominate dog. I would like to these people handle and train an aggressive and dominate dog, which after the “cookies” and “kisses” would end in failure and likely a trip to the ER.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have worked as a vet tech for many years and I am a vet student. I have worked with aggressive dogs. I was the “go to” tech when an aggressive dogs would come in. There is no “kissie wissy” and “wuv”? Did you even read those articles I linked to? You do not REWARD DOGS FOR AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR. That is RIDICULOUS! Most aggressive dogs are not aggressive for “dominance” reasons, they are aggressive because of fear. Doing an “alpha role” trying to intimidate them may suppress them for a while, but that negative behavior might come out in other more severe ways. Especially if the dog is later left with a child who is not capable of “dominating” a dog. You need to TRAIN the dog. Give the dog confidence, and not by flooding. People who let their dogs do whatever they want are not TRAINING their dog, and they are not behaviorists. There is a difference!

[RougeEmpire]

A dog with problems should NEVER be left alone with a child, ever. Yet people do it all the time and end up with terrible results. People screw up with fearful dogs all the time as well. Again by rewarding the dog and petting it giving affection when its in a state of fear. This only makes it worse and makes negative association for the dog. Just like with horses by establishing you self as the Alpha you establish the animals PLACE therefore he KNOWS where he “is” so to speak. When the dog knows who is Alpha the dog long feels lost or without a place. Dog says “oh you are in charge, therefor I am going to follow you.”. A dog NEEDS to have an Alpha ESPECIALLY when they become fearful. And a lot of people do it WRONG, the sad fact is most dog owners suck at being dog owners. Most dog owners get a “child” and treat it like one. Most dog owners (like a lot of horse owners) have NO FEEL and can not READ the animal. CM is extremely good at what he does because he has great feel and can read the dogs extremely well. Most dog owners can not because its a child to them and not a dog. and again most of these people would get eaten alive by a aggressive or dominate dog, regarless if its fear based or truly domination based. A aggressive or dominate dog is dangerous to anyone who is not skilled in handling such dogs. You seem to misunderstand the APPLICATION of dominance, apparently the people you work with are no good at applying dominance or handing such dogs. Its not CMs fault there are a lot of professionals out there that are NO GOOD at their job and don’t handle dogs well. If your co-working are BAD at handling dogs and apply the application INCORRECTLY that’s not his fault, its theirs.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4229738]
Yes, I have worked as a vet tech for many years and I am a vet student. I have worked with aggressive dogs. I was the “go to” tech when an aggressive dogs would come in. There is no “kissie wissy” and “wuv”? Did you even read those articles I linked to? You do not REWARD DOGS FOR AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR. That is RIDICULOUS! Most aggressive dogs are not aggressive for “dominance” reasons, they are aggressive because of fear. Doing an “alpha role” trying to intimidate them may suppress them for a while, but that negative behavior might come out in other more severe ways. Especially if the dog is later left with a child who is not capable of “dominating” a dog. You need to TRAIN the dog. Give the dog confidence, and not by flooding. People who let their dogs do whatever they want are not TRAINING their dog, and they are not behaviorists. There is a difference![/QUOTE]

Did people ever heard the term, when starting colts, to “steal a ride”?
That is to sneak on a colt, hope everything works and get off and yes, it did, but the colt will still not be broke, he didn’t learn much and may blow up on the next ride.

That is what CM does with dogs, catches them by surprise and strongly and deftly and gets them under control.
That is fine if you are an animal control officer, that has to handle all and any dog you have to handle.
That is not being a trainer, where all you do is so the horse/dog is learning and being trained.

CM himself will tell you he is not a trainer and everyone that trains dogs will tell you he is not and why.
He is stealing rides on dogs others have to train after that.
As far as what you see on TV, that works for what CM does.
Now, a series where he takes a dog up to having learned some task, that is not what he does.

On the other hand, a true dog trainer will take that difficult or untrained dog and not only get it under control, but teach it so that dog can eventually do whatever task we want of it.
Those differences is what people that don’t know about dog training can’t understand.

There are some horse trainers out there that will take a horse with problems and get them over that, but not all know then how to keep training in the finer points of some discipline.

The same with PP, but he sure is making much money at what he does and good for him.
Not everyone around horses wants to be good at any one specific kind of riding and those that don’t, just want a friend in their horses, that kind of person fits in their system fine.

What I don’t like is that part of fitting there is swearing in that PP is the one and only and bestest and holiest and everyone else doesn’t know what they are talking about, are not doing any of those things they are learning in the PP system, are not friends with their horses, if not are directly abusing them.
THAT is a big fault of the system, that may gain them die for them accolytes, but also some enemosity in the rest of the horse industry, as we can see here.

[CatOnLap]

gosh, for a second there I thought you were talking about Charles Manson, not Cesar Milan.

Another great example of good marketing, good video editing and charismatic personality.

Search Youtube for all the videos you can find on the guy- they expose the fact that he does use force in training and doesn’t get the instant results with every dog that he shows on TV. The emperor’s undies are showing.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants]

[QUOTE=RougeEmpire;4229762]
A dog with problems should NEVER be left alone with a child, ever. Yet people do it all the time and end up with terrible results. People screw up with fearful dogs all the time as well. Again by rewarding the dog and petting it giving affection when its in a state of fear. This only makes it worse and makes negative association for the dog. Just like with horses by establishing you self as the Alpha you establish the animals PLACE therefore he KNOWS where he “is” so to speak. When the dog knows who is Alpha the dog long feels lost or without a place. Dog says “oh you are in charge, therefor I am going to follow you.”. A dog NEEDS to have an Alpha ESPECIALLY when they become fearful. And a lot of people do it WRONG, the sad fact is most dog owners suck at being dog owners. Most dog owners get a “child” and treat it like one. Most dog owners (like a lot of horse owners) have NO FEEL and can not READ the animal. CM is extremely good at what he does because he has great feel and can read the dogs extremely well. Most dog owners can not because its a child to them and not a dog. and again most of these people would get eaten alive by a aggressive or dominate dog, regarless if its fear based or truly domination based. A aggressive or dominate dog is dangerous to anyone who is not skilled in handling such dogs. You seem to misunderstand the APPLICATION of dominance, apparently the people you work with are no good at applying dominance or handing such dogs. Its not CMs fault there are a lot of professionals out there that are NO GOOD at their job and don’t handle dogs well. If your co-working are BAD at handling dogs and apply the application INCORRECTLY that’s not his fault, its theirs.[/QUOTE]

Again, the alpha role is not necessary and its a shame this idea has become so popular. Owners need to be disciplined and consistent and teach their dogs how they would like them to respond. This has nothing to do with any sort of “alpha role.” ***Love does not ruin dogs, lack of consistent training and socialization ruins dogs. *** The whole alpha dog theory is not necessary at all and gives people the wrong idea a lot of the time. They just think “dominance” is the problem, when really the problem is LACK OF CONSISTENT TRAINING AND SOCIALIZATION! What CM does first is teach owners how to walk their dog-- this is GOOD! A step in the right direction, but then the whole dominance thing just leads people down the wrong path.
Then if the dog is around someone that can’t dominate them (child, elderly etc…) you have a dangerous situation. Whereas if you have a dog with aggression issues and then properly train and socialize the dog, without any sort of intimidation, the dog does not try to dominate whoever he can. When you have dominance roles, like in a herd, there are often battles for who is the leader. Some dogs just accept the status quo, but some dogs want to be the leader and as they age if they are taught in this dominance/alpha way, they will try to be the alpha dog in every situation. Now this is fine if you are the trainer and can dominate the dog, but if the dog is in a new situation with other dogs, children, elderly… who do not take the dominant role, and the dog still has fear issues, you are going to have aggression problems, and possibly a bite if someone makes a wrong move.

[Antaeus]

[QUOTE=whitesage;4229678]
JB-
I got through page 2 of this thread before giving up on reading the entire thing. Life’s too short. But I felt it important to say somewhere in here that it’s very upsetting to see so many people jumping to conclusions - both the OP, as well as the guy she wrote about, not to mention the gazillion commenters after that.

I did dressage for 10 years, was starting to ride Second Level when I quit. Then I took 10 years off from horses and when I came back, it was doing Natural Horsemanship, mainly Parelli. I can’t tell you how many things Parelli has taught me that I am thankful for. Ten years of dressage lessons never prepared me for dealing with horses that were difficult to load in the trailer, or panicky in cross-ties, or touchy about picking up their hooves. I learned a lot of that while doing Parelli clinics and studying those DVD’s.

I’ve also seen some very cringe-worthy things done with horses in the name of “Parelli.” And Clinton Anderson. And Monty Roberts.

The point is, I don’t make assumptions. I don’t assume that everyone else coming out of dressage barns are as clueless as I was about getting horses onto a trailer when they don’t want to load. I don’t assume that people who do dressage are eeevil and should get a carrotstick already. I don’t assume everyone with an orange stick is carrying an ‘idiot symbol’ either.

In the US we’ve decided all people have equal rights regardless of their gender, race, religion, marital status, etc. I really hope someday people can extend this to disciplines in the horse world too. I think we should make judgments about individuals based in their ABILITIES not their labels or disciplines. That goes for the wacko guy discussed in the first post, as well as all the commenters willing to bash everyone doing Natural Horsemanship because of him.

Thank JB for saying basically that, and a little more succinctly. I haven’t been on the forums long and hesitated to say anything. Glad you said it first…it’s always nice to see others with a more balanced view.[/QUOTE]

Thanks to both you and JB for putting my thoughts in order! I’m a newbie here and also hesitated to respond to this thread.
I’ve done a lot of PNH (“officially” passing Level 1 and studying Level 2 with certified instructors) that was very good for both me and my horses. I’ve worked the PNH “events.” I’ve also been to CA, Denis Reis seminars and taken clinics with Buck Branaman and Ray Hunt. I’ve seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in followers of all these NH clinicians. Now that I’m back to dressage after 14 years, I see the good and bad in its devotees, too.
Good horsemanship, with the welfare of the horse paramount, is good horsemanship regardless of what it’s called.

[JB]

@GettingBack;4229736

In fact, I think that most horsepeople are at their absolute worst during their second year of horse ownership (this is not counting people who have leased a horse for many years). They seem to “know” what’s best for you, your horse, and the world, but without the real expertise to know what it’s really about.

There is indeed a phase that most people, myself included, go through/have gone through, where you’ve learned enough to think you know what you’re doing/talking about, but really you only know enough to be laughed at or worse, dangerous. That should really only happen once though, twice at the most, for you to realize that with every new thing you learn, sometimes you need to shut up and watch and listen.

Yes, PP has good marketers. His games are really just training games, but he did a great job, IMO, of making them easy for HUMANS to understand. Because it’s hard to teach people to have horse sense, if they don’t have it innately.

Exactly, his point was to try to make the basic things you should be teaching horses something that made more sense to the horse-stupid. Does it always work? No, and this thread is just more proof of that. But there are many people out there who are better off for having stumbled across this type of “training”. Those who end up the Cult-ers would have ended up in a cult regardless, because that is their mentality about life in general. They’re all over the place, in every horse discipline, in any area of life. Look at religion and politics - some are SO ingrained in THEIR way of viewing situations that nothing else could possibly be right or acknowledged or even just appreciated.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;4225027]
So why insist on calling it Natural Horsemanship? If you’re borrowing from a variety of places (which I think most successful horsepeople do) and playing with a bunch of fundamental concepts, then you’re not following a rigid program and NONE of the comments apply to you. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Actually, alot of the trainers who use these type of methods do NOT call it “Natural Horsemanship.” Buck Brannaman (arguably one of the best of the group in terms of actual riding ability and horsemanship) hates the term, stating “nothing we ask a horse to do is “natural” to them.”

Certainly the trainers that started this recent resurgence in this method – folks like Tom & Bill Dorrence, Ray Hunt, etc. didn’t call it that, although their “systems” employed many of the same methods that are now termed “Natural Horsemanship.”

I think PP, marketer that he is, started using the term. Maybe Monty Roberts? But, just like there is no one, set method, where each step is identical that is called “Natural Horsemanship” I think that is true of all so-called “methods.” Take a look at the term “classical dressage.” Trainers who say they train classically may have some stuff in common, but certainly not all. They may not do every thing in the same order. Any horseperson with sense knows there is no such thing as a ‘rigid’ system when it comes to horses.

Yeah, I’m sure PP preaches otherwise, but I think that is more a matter of packaging a “system” that is straight forward and (more) easily explained to the masses then actual fact. So many of these people aren’t horsemen in the sense of being around horses for most of their lives, so there is alot of ground to cover.

Personally, I define “natural horsemanship,” as a philosophy of training based on the vacquaro tradition, usually utilizing a roundpen, and emphasizing the horse’s innate nature of being a herd animal, a prey animal and an animal in need of a leader to help shape the person’s relationship with the animal.

This is key, and in my mind has much to so with what sets the GOALS of this “method” apart from much of tradition horsebreaking/training. The ranch workers who used these horses had to spend 10-12 hrs. a day on them — they truly had to be partners. The “join-up” was simply a way to instill in the horse that bond so that when the rider dismounted to doctor a cow or sheep, the horse didn’t have to be tied…often there was nothing to tie them to! The horse would stay put, or even follow the human around, because they saw the person as “herd.”

Again, this has strayed pretty far from the OP’s original post, which I guess was simply a rant because her fellow boarders were not polite in sharing space with her. But it’s wrong to blame it on NH. I’ve met people out on the trail who were just as rude and inconsiderate, and I’ve heard plenty of stories from my friends who show alot about the same sort of thing taking place in warm-up rings all over the place.

But it isn’t NH that is the problem.

Simply put: it is the owner’s job to prepare their horse for meeting what the world will present to you both over the course of your relationship AND/or be capable of handling said horse during a crisis.

I find NH is a help in doing this, but I taught my Arab mare how to pony off a bicycle L-O-N-G before I’d heard of NH, so it certainly isn’t the only way to go.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=slc2;4227252]
No, actually, there is a particular problem with Natural horsemanship, it attracts far more slavish and far rigider and more insistent and arrogant culties than any other type of riding, they are far more ready to decide what other people’s horses should be subjected to, far more likely to feel it is their god given right to foist it on other poeople’s horses, [/QUOTE]

Nah – slc2, you’re wrong about that. Dressage folks are some of THE worst I’ve ever seen about how only THEIR way of training/riding is the only REAL riding.

WP, saddleseat, crosscountry, reining – none of that is REAL riding and those horses aren’t REALLY trained.

Just ask the DQ…:lol:

[tazlover08]

I mean, yeah, we are bad, but NH takes it to a whole new level. We know we’re fabulous ;), many of the NH people are a cult!!!

I think we all agree that we’re not talking about the people who like the NH principals and just go about their own ways. However, anything in excess is bad. I just think there are a lot of people in NH who take it to excess and impose their views on other people.

It’s not the basic principals of NH that we have a problem with, it’s the cultish obsession that many of the NH participants have haha.

[asanders]

@narcisco;4218207

I say (using formula), “when you say Clinton Anderson says my horse will be useless, I feel bad. In the future, I would prefer that you keep negative comments to yourself.”

If that doesn’t work, when they say or do something stupid, make porcupine pointy fingers, poke them in the ribs and say, “sssss” like Cesar Milan.

:lol::sadsmile::lol::sadsmile::lol:

[tazlover08]

Hahahahahahaha I skipped over that one. Maybe we could find some neon attachment to poke them in the ribs. Obviously the neon makes it have more impact. Since they do orange, maybe we could do lime green?

[slc2]

"dressagies are the worst about ‘their way’’

I didn’t find a dressage rider in my pony’s stall, I found a die hard NH’er slappin’ him around. Same as the NH’er who spied in the restaurant, by my purse on the floor with the dressage horse on it and chewed me another orifice.